20 Replies Latest reply: Nov 30, 2011 4:29 AM by Neil Wilkes RSS

    Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD

    nefl777 Community Member

      hi all,

      I've done quite a few DVDs so far with Encore. Some are as short as 1 hour, some are as long as 2.5 hours. I keep expecting Encore to say "too much video for the project"... but it doesn't. I look at the 'build' menu and it always says the same thing under "Disc Info"

       

      here is a screenshot:

       

      Screen shot 2011-11-22 at 6.37.42 PM.png

      This particular project is 2hrs 25 minutes. Is Encore somehow forcing it onto this 4GB disc? Does that mean some quality is going to degrade? I bought a dual layer disc burner thinking soon I would have to use it but so far I've burned projects that are quite large on my single layer.  Will Encore tell me when the project is too large for single layer?  Here's my system info:

       

      System: Mac OS X, version 10.6.8

          2.66 GHz      Unknown processor

          Total Physical Memory: 8 GB

       

      Adobe Encore Serial Number: 976xxx

      Product Version: 5.0.0.508

      Premiere Media Layer Version: --

       

      Blu-ray Devices Installed:

          None

      DVD Devices Installed:

           HL-DT-ST DVDRW  GA11N (Firmware KA19)

       

      thanks guys!

        • 1. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
          John T Smith CommunityMVP

          >Is Encore somehow forcing it onto this 4GB disc?

           

          Yes, that is called compression... when you feed Encore "raw" video (DV AVI for me, on Windows) the video is about 13Gig per hour, which compresses down to fit on a DVD when it is made into MPG/VOB

           

          >Does that mean some quality is going to degrade?

           

          Yes

          • 2. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
            nefl777 Community Member

            Oh Ok I see what you mean and I had a hunch about it.

            If I use my dual-layer burner will it be better quality?  If so, are there guidelines as to When to use a dual layer ?

             

            thank you!

            • 3. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
              Stan Jones CommunityMVP

              The answer will vary depending on how challenging the material is (lots of movement needs higher datarates than still/low motion), and how important the quality is in your project.

               

              One rule of thumb is 2 hours is okay for a single layer, but some hour projects at higher quality will max out a single layer disk.

               

              And yes, your 2 hour plus project will be compressed at a higher data rate (better quality) if Encore has two layers.

              • 4. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                nefl777 Community Member

                Hey, this is SO helpful. thanks.

                I do wedding videos so you could say they are predictable 'average to slow' motion. I do not throw in too many effects or titles or swipes and I do not use 'motion' menus or animated buttons. it's quite simple.

                 

                The two hour rule is great to know about. thanks !!

                 

                As we speak I am creating a disc image of the 2hr 25 min wedding video on single layer. I will do a test with dual layer to see if I can see the quality difference.

                 

                again, thanks and this has really helped me !

                • 5. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                  John T Smith CommunityMVP

                  Just be sure you change the output option from single to dual layer so Encore knows to use the different size (easy to forget that one... don't ask how I know)

                   

                  I presume you are exporting "uncompressed" Mov (you are Mac... I use DV AVI for windows) and then having Encore do "automatic" transcoding?

                  • 6. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                    nefl777 wrote:

                     

                    As we speak I am creating a disc image of the 2hr 25 min wedding video on single layer. I will do a test with dual layer to see if I can see the quality difference.

                     

                    again, thanks and this has really helped me !

                    You'll need to revert the transcoded video file back to the original and re-transcode after setting for a DVD9 project then.

                    Otherwise Encore will just use what it has already transcoded for you.

                    Alternatively - and probabl;y for the best - create a new project and re-author from scratch, so you will have both options.

                    I'd definitely recommend this - although you will definitely not want to keep the Single Layer version, your clients might need it as not all players handle written DL discs too well.

                     

                    Things to watch out for with DL...

                    1 - Make sure your layer break is at a point with videoblack & silence. Edit for this if necessary (around halfway through will be best) and put a chapter point there for the Layer Break detection to find or it will simply divide the file in half if left to automatic. Given a lot of players will momentarily freeze at the layer break, this would not be ideal (automatic Layer break)

                    2 - Only use Verbatim DVD+R DL discs - do not use DVD-R DL, or a great many people might not be able to play them.

                    3 - (Personal preference) export the disc to a disc image, and burn using IMGBurn instead.

                     

                    Hope this helps

                    • 7. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                      nefl777 Community Member

                      Neil, thanks for your input!

                       

                      How timely...here I am using my brand new DL burner and while it was spinning I thought how fast it all went.....DUH... then your answer came in and yes, I simply burned the same data over again. oh well ! I'll call it a test of the new burner.

                       

                      I'm confused by your terminology "a DVD9 project " what is a DVD9 project? 

                       

                      I always prefer creating disc images too. since I'm on a Mac I use "disk utility" to burn . I'm wondering if it will recognize a DL image.

                       

                      I also just bought Verbatim DVD+R DL discs so I'm in luck on that point.

                       

                      I intend on restarting the project. I will let you know how it goes! thanks for your time!!

                       

                      ps. I burned the single layer of this project and I have to admit the quality was quite awful.

                      • 8. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                        Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                        Hi.

                         

                        A DVD9 project is the same thing as a Dual Layer project - and somewhere Encore will need to be informed of this or it's automatic transcoding will still squash for a single layer disc.

                        This is usually done at project setup - see the PDF manual at http://help.adobe.com/en_US/encore/cs/using/encore_cs5_help.pdf and especially the quote below from page 20

                         

                        Set the disc size for DVD projects

                        By setting the disc size for your DVD project at the beginning of the authoring process, Encore can calculate how much space is used for each asset you add to the project and how much space remains free.

                        1Choose Window > Build.

                        2In the Build panel, choose DVD from the Format menu, and scroll down to the Disc Info section.

                        3Choose a size from the Size menu. To enter a custom disc size, choose Custom and then type a size in the text box.

                        4If you want to create a dual-sided disc, specify which side this project is for.

                        5Close the Build panel and save the project.

                         

                        Depending on the utility you use, a DL image really should not be a problem, but you should also be aware that not all DVD-ROM drives are DVD-Video qualified either.

                        That said, this means they ought to write okay - it's just data - but the layer break simply has to be correct, and you need to be sure you are burning the thing correctly which is where IMGburn does the job beautifully as you can preview the layer break with it. It might be heresy to say it to some folks, but Mac just are not as good as PC for this sort of stuff.

                        There is much more in the way of utilities & high end software available too.

                        Again, Toast should manage this - but be careful to make sure any mac utility is honouring the layer break properly, and this might well mean using Encore for the burn..

                         

                        Back to the layer break itself.

                        You are going to have to use Encore to set this. Make sure there is a chapter marker available at the place where you want the break to be, and then be doubly certain by setting the thing manually - although with a chapter point you should be okay - check the PDF manual I have linked to for full instructions.

                        • 9. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                          nefl777 Community Member

                          hi again and thanks again!

                           

                          Gotcha on the DVD9 terminology; never heard of it before.

                           

                          I have recreated my project and have set the disc info to be the dual layer, have the destination set to the right drive, etc.

                           

                          last question; regarding the break. I created a  jpg that is black with the right dimensions. I put it into the timeline at a good breaking point.. about halfway thru. I put a chapter marker right at the beginning of it.

                           

                          The elapsed time of the jpeg is about 3 seconds. is this wrong? how long should that black break be?

                           

                          thank you Neil!

                          • 10. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                            Stan Jones CommunityMVP

                            Neil is an advocate, as almost all of us, of feeding Encore assets that are ready to go, so I'm sure he wants the black/silence as part of the movie, not a jpg inserted into the timeline. In either method (in the video or inserted as a jpg on the timeline), you will see the effect, I would want this to be a fade out/in (unless a cut was the right thing for the piece), with the chapter marker/layer break in the middle (so it is black/silent at that point).

                             

                            FYI, to put the DVD9 label in perspective, see this:

                             

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#Capacity

                            • 11. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                              nefl777 Community Member

                              Stan, thanks for your input. I think I understand what you are telling me.  8^)

                               

                              However, I'm still having no luck with this. I recreated my project and created a tiny black part of the video with  no sound. I put on a chapter marker and it's #15.  I read and reread the help file, particularly this part:

                               

                              Screen shot 2011-11-25 at 9.36.06 AM.png

                               

                              I checked the "manual" button for the layer break. however, NO "set layer transition dialog box" came up.  Nothing. It just started building.  I figured it would ask me sooner or later so I kept checking my Mac all day yesterday during the 5 hours this was building. (and I changed it to build a Folder) .

                               

                              Then it errored out and said "you need to set a layer break or use Automatic layer break"  ....  ARGGG

                               

                              Here is what I have for my build window and the settings I picked:

                               

                              Screen shot 2011-11-25 at 9.42.24 AM.png

                               

                              please advise follks !  I need help to get this project off my plate.

                               

                              thanks !!!

                              • 12. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                Stan Jones CommunityMVP

                                You should be allowed to build to a FOLDER without dealing with the layer break. Then you can burn using ImgBurn and set the layer break there.

                                 

                                Use "transcode now" to do your transcoding, then the build will not take so long.

                                • 13. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                  nefl777 Community Member

                                  Hi and I really appreciate your reply!

                                   

                                  couple of questions; since I set the break to Manual, shouldn't I have seen that dialogue box come up? Or am I not reading the directions correctly?

                                   

                                  second; should I set the break to automatic and burn the folder so I can use image burn? It seems to me that is the only way to have success because It errors if I set it to manual.

                                   

                                  thanks again Stan!

                                  • 14. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                    Stan Jones CommunityMVP

                                    I didn't find this info right away. Here is what I ahve copied from other posts about layer break problems:

                                     

                                    Jon Geddes

                                    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4002647#4002647

                                     

                                    The layer break dialog only appears after you start building for a couple reasons...

                                     

                                    1) Layer break is not needed if you are building an ISO image or a folder. Therefore, it prompts you only when building a disc or DDP.

                                     

                                    2) Until all the streams, menus, and data are prepared (which happens during the build process), Encore does not know where the layer break can be placed.

                                     

                                    If it does not detect a good layer break point in the range that it deems acceptable, I believe it will not prompt and instead split it in the middle, even if that occurs in a bad spot. Encore must find a chapter point to place the break at, so if no chapters are found in the range, it cannot manually select a break point.

                                     

                                    What you can do is create an image, then open that image with ImgBurn. When attempting to burn, ImgBurn will ask you to select a layer break point, and will allow you to watch exactly where Encore places the layer break. If that point is not good, at least you can see which video and at which point is the exact middle of all the content. You can then go back into your Encore project, go to a point in the video before that spot (a more acceptable break point), and create a chapter. That chapter will then be used as a break point instead.

                                     

                                    I know it's kind of a hassle, but at least it is a method for assuring you have a good layer break point that doesn't occur right in the middle of a scene or when someone is talking.

                                     

                                    shuchi shrivastava

                                    http://forums.adobe.com/message/3905911#3905911

                                     

                                    There is an issue with Encore layer breaks so most probably this is what is causing the problem.In some cases Encore places an extra chapter on the timeline at the place where the layer break occurs.This causes subsequent chapters to be incremented by 1.So, I guess your problem is related to this behaviour only.

                                    • 15. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                      nefl777 Community Member

                                      thanks so much for this other info, Stan.  It's so hard to find answers to these specific type of problems.

                                       

                                      I would be jumping for joy about using imgburn but.... there is NO imgburn on a mac!  seriously. I googled for about 1 hour and it appears this is the case.  I also just went for it and used a few other tools to burn but so far the discs don't play in my dvd player... so I'm thinking it was how I burned them.

                                       

                                      To make sure my DVD player can actually play a dual, I'm going to use Encore and burn directly to disc. I'll see if the dialogue comes up (I do have a breakpoint at a chapter ready). I'll let you know what I find.

                                       

                                      This would all be solved if I had imgburn.

                                       

                                      I'll check back in later! thanks again  !! 

                                      • 16. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                        Stan Jones CommunityMVP

                                        Is it Toast that Macers use for this?

                                         

                                        And yes, give Encore a try!

                                        • 17. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                          nefl777 Community Member

                                          I'm back.....

                                           

                                          I just wanted to wrap this up with what I found burning dual-layer with Encore.. to share the info.

                                           

                                          Goal: to burn a dual layer dvd with a timeline that was 2.5 hrs long. I found:

                                           

                                          #1.   the "manual" setting on the break point does not work. I had setup a black chapter point but Encore would not ask me where my manual breakpoint was. When I clicked on "Manual" encore just processed the video and at the end of 4.5 hrs gave me an error msg that I did not record. it said something like 'error you have to have a breakpoint or you will have to set automatic'... sorry I did not get the whole msg.

                                           

                                          I went back in and clicked Automatic and burnt a disc that will play.

                                           

                                          thanks everyone for their help! have a great day!

                                          • 19. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                            nefl777 Community Member

                                            thanks and one more thing... which could be very serious depending on your project.

                                             

                                            I reviewed the dvd starting from around the halfway point so that I could discover the break that encore put in.

                                             

                                            right in the middle of a speech there was a hiccup.  for this particular dvd it is no big thing. for some other project, it will be unacceptable. I have a windows pc in the other room where I will have to bring my VIDEO_TS folder, and my burner, and use the Imgburn for future projects.  lucky for me I have these lovely portable drives to use, AND, these kinds of projects don't come my way that often.

                                             

                                            can Adobe somehow look into fixing this bug ??

                                             

                                            thanks .

                                            • 20. Re: Need clarification on size explanation on a DVD
                                              Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                                              The Layer Break dialogue appears during the build process, and usually after transcoding has taken place.

                                              It's only at this point - once the final MPEG-2 files are created - that the compiler knows how large the actual files are, that it can do this.

                                               

                                              Also, with your added videoblack this should definitely be encoded into the main video file & not just pasted over the top in Encore.

                                              Another way to try & force the break dialogue might be to set several different places where you might want the break located. I suggest this as I am beginning to suspect there are multiple issues causing these layer break woes and it's not as straightforward as it might be - a good feature request might be for a simple visual indicator of roughly what area the LB might fall into given transcoding & building the project at it's current state like we have in Scenarist & DVD-Lab Pro.

                                               

                                              Watch out for Dual Layer issues with IMGBurn though, as it seems there is a bug there in the UDF Identifiers.