17 Replies Latest reply: Dec 1, 2011 4:05 PM by able123 RSS

    is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?

    Michelmnr Community Member

      I don't think it's possible but would find this very helpful especially when animating stills. Play back even with the safe areas on is not quite the same, as seeing only what is within the safe area. perhaps is what is called "wish list"! I've got to confess that I have not been very successful at wiring my tv as a monitor. I used to through my video camera but since my upgrade...I've given up!

      Actually I just tried to play my animated stills through my fire wire and camera as I used to and it's not a happy result!

      First my time line won't play when I choose External device with or without the desktop monitor added. I can hear the firewire connection has been recognised, but there is nothing on the camera screen. (it was always a challenge to get it started!).

      I'm running cs4 Vs 4.2.1 and update tells me there is no more available update at this moment.  I think I'll put my firewire back where it was before I started this. My problem with external display started when I upgraded my system to accommodate my AVHD Everio footages! New processor i5, memory galore, video card etc.! - I might stick a card board frame on my monitor!

        • 1. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
          Community Member

          =========

          I might stick a card board frame on my monitor!

          ==========

          heh...thats what I was gonna suggest... black 'camera' paper tape ( permacell ) maybe....dont press it down onto monitor hard..just enough to stick...

           

           

          • 2. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
            Michelmnr Community Member

            Ha ha ha, I don't know if it's a case of "great minds think alike" or "Fools don't differ" but here we are! I've already did it, I have cut a cardboard fitting one of my 19" screens  and detached the program monitor then put it to the max it to the screen and measure the safe area to cut it out. (it's a good idea to put it quite central I found as if it's to near to the top edge there is little adjustment left to get that frame in the middle of the cardboard window) I also carried the Control effect over the other screen so I can review my work and re-touch if I have too.  I'm sure adobe and the pros would have a good laugh! But it's working for me

            Perhaps we'll get 10 points each!

            • 3. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
              Community Member

              hey... we do what we gotta do !  hehe...

               

              dont worry re: " your reputation " as a tech savvy artist etc...

               

              on plate shots and matching static green screen shots etc on big budgets.. tape is a big help ( or your cardboard)...on monitors etc.

               

               

              • 4. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                Community Member

                ps... especially nowadays where with digital cameras you often go for the vertical frame instead of horizontal !!! just so you have more room ( resolution ) to deal with subject matter and post etc .

                 

                you have no idea how many times I find I"m on a job and someone wants to put the camera sideways and we scramble around looking for underslung head and 90 degree plates and offset plates and risers and gawd knows what else to make it work... cause its the first time anyone in cam dept or grip dept heard about the shot wanted.

                 

                 

                 

                then the tape comes out for the monitor !!!!  or your cardboard !!!!

                 

                i know this sounds weird that 35mm film cameras havent done this much ( i personally have NEVER had to do it )...  but suspect that the digitalization ( telecine ) scanning etc of 35mm film is just waaaay better ( higher res ) than the native digital size ....

                • 5. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                  Michelmnr Community Member

                  Geezz, you seem to be a lot more involved than I am with this stuff! You're right I have no much of an idea of what you got to deal with! I don't know anything about permacell. But I can imagine those diagonal shots being a bit of a challenge. I thought those expensive cameras with large sensor and 20-30 mx pixels were on par with the old 35mm film these days... So not quite yet! As for me with the safe area I'm actually wondering with the new LCD / Plasma etc. screens that everyone seem to have now whether the safe area is still so critical anyway.

                  • 6. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                    JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                    It is.  A lot of flat panel displays do not show the whole raster.  Seems like only the high end models will show the entire 1920 x 1080 image.

                     

                    Still, it's just not normal to work towards the viewer seeing the whole image.  The safe areas are there so you put the critical parts of the image into it.  But you still fill the whole screen.

                    • 7. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                      Michelmnr Community Member

                      "you still fill the whole screen? Thanks Jim I thought the whole idea was to put what you want to be seen into the safe area. I'm out putting 720x480 (pal) and zoom in or out with occasional panning. Thus if I zoom I watch that safe area to make sure what I want is in it. Is this right? I seem to achieve what I want this way.

                      • 8. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                        JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                        You zoom with the camera, not in post.  You make sure you frame your shots such that the critical action is within the safe action zone.

                         

                        (720 x 480 is NTSC.  PAL is 720 x 576.)

                        • 9. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                          Community Member

                          it sounds like your export is not setup right ( probably cause you thought pal is 720x480 )..or your program setup is OK but your source material isnt right...or whatever... something is not kosher.

                           

                          this is going to get confusing maybe but here goes...

                          when you understand it it will be helpful ...probably for later on doing titles and stuff .. as for the moment it sounds like you are trying to mask off the safety area for mysterious reasons..( prob with export the whole frame size )..

                           

                          so what is below is not related to your immediate problem .. but it explains why SOME people may want to deal with the safety areas independently.

                           

                          ======

                          to begin a note about my TV and Cable Box...

                          Most people now have HD and 16:9 TV sets ( and cable ready or HD cable 'boxes' )

                          I do not.

                          I have an SD cable box and an old CRT TV sony trinitron ( which is 4:3 ).

                           

                          What that means is that most of the HD stuff I watch ( stuff broadcast as HD ) is shown to me as 4:3... not 16:9.

                          What that means is that I am seeing what is in the 4:3 tv safety area of the HD camera / editor .

                           

                          Sooo, in my particular case... everything I watch on TV is 4:3... which is in the safe area for 4:3 tv when shooting or editing HD.

                           

                          That said... many people in the world have old TV sets like me... especially in 3rd world countries ( like Elmont, NY where I live ).

                           

                          In my case.. if I edit HD and want to watch the DVD I burn on my TV set ... I will only see the 4:3 area... yes, i do mean downsizing to sd .

                          The only way for me to see the 16:9 image is if I deliberately set up the project and export as LETTERBOX ( where I will then see black on top and sides of the image in my 4:3 TV )

                           

                          Soooo, in a nutshell that is ONE issue re: safety areas... Title safety areas are slightly different than the 4:3 TV safety...  but essentially what they do ( the safety areas ) is guarantee that the titles you put into your film will fit within the whole screen of the TV being watched... As Jim mentioned... not all TV's ( lcd plasma etc ) show the full frame of the HD material..  ( thats another can of worms re: how that works.. so lets not go there now ).

                           

                          Here's the 4:3 TV safety area for titles as an example...approximated.. not drawn to scale... and how that then translates into the 16:9 space...

                          You can see what I personally will SEE on my TV if I watch your HD movie... ( 4:3 ).

                           

                          Those with HD boxes and TV's will see pretty much the whole frame ( sorta ) of your HD movie ( 16:9 ). For safety sake to make sure titles dont go to the very edge of screen ( and are hard to read ).. the safety area for titles is on your HD project monitor.

                           

                          safety area.jpg

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          yellow = title safety areas (not drawn to scale )

                          • 10. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                            Michelmnr Community Member

                            More head scratching :)).

                            720x576, I'll never get this figure around my tong or brain but yes that's pal. However when I set my project I obviously set it for pal unless I plan to send it to you guys. (2 years ago I was in Canada and got friends and family from Vancouver to Montreal (there were some nice chaps too on the other side of the Falls and in Seattle....) Well is it really 3rd world over there? I did a couple of NTSC projects for them but realised that (1st world countries) seem to have automatic switch on their machines so Pal would be ok for them too. So, most of the time I set my project for pal but when I "export my media" from PP CS4 it launches the encoder and that what I read 720x420...I don't dare interfering with this stuff! I did understand the safe area is for the less fortunate who use technology that will only display 4:3. Here in Sydney we soon will loose analogue signal however we still can use 'set top boxes', just the same, you should see the quality of CRT that are left on the side of the road on Council cleaning ups!  I'm still confused about the ratios. is 4:3 the same with 720X480, or 576? I'm no Einstein as you probably guessed, strange letters and number scare me! but I imagine perhaps it's close enough to be 4:3.

                            I have done a few projects on 16:9 since I bought my hd video camera but yes it's still restrictive to see on many monitors so I stick to standard and 4:3 I miss my being able to play on my CRT tv before upgrading. I did not need math then just adjust it to see titles and pictures! I seem to remember that actually it was accepting a little more than the safe area.

                            Jim says don't zoom in post? I thought this was the beauty of high pix pics, I don't know if it's a difference of terminology. But that's what I do often especially with portray pics I blow them to fill the safe area and then pan them up or down after increasing the duration.

                            When Jim says you still fill the whole screen... I understand with the titles because we have control for their placement and size, but the pictures are as they are and if there is things of interest on their edges some would see it and others not. Hmm it's late in the morning and I can see the smoke coming out of my top so will leave it here for now but thanx for the drawing and explanations.

                            • 11. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                              Community Member

                              I dont think Jim realized you were talking about still images re: zooming.

                               

                              I think what I would do if I were you ...  is setup your project for hd if that is the source material and use the entire 16:9 screen to do your work.

                               

                              that way you see what you shot and edit the whole screen which is normally what is done.

                              your desire to mask off title safe area etc can go on the back burner for now IMO.

                               

                              do a test with something small in size ( byte count and time ).

                               

                              setup hd project according to your source material.

                              export as SD PAL 16:9 aspect ratio (par will not be square), same frame rate as source, interlaced, lower field first I think...

                              That should give you a 16:9 pal SD export...burn to a DVD ( can use re-writeable dvd if you want so you dont waste any ).

                              see how it looks on your TV in the dvd player... is the only way to judge final product... as it may look terrible on the computer..but look great on the TV.

                               

                              try that

                               

                              • 12. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                Michelmnr Community Member

                                Thanks A123, Usually I get it done this way for myself I have no dvd connected to a crt screen. But I go through all this to share with people who still are using ordinary TV. and I use RW dvd too as so to make my authoring mistakes a little less costly!

                                My cardboard thing is not too bad but perhaps not worth the trouble as I can do the same thing a lot more easily just calling the safe area as it is more relevant when I rotate  some pics and want to avoid the black portion showing in the corners. else it's not such a big deal.   Still it's nice to visualise the display to the size one wish to output it, I hope it's that what my cardboard frame shows me since I have not a crt display. I think Anne B. advised me before to use the full screen and then I had problem to understand. Never mind one day I'll get it - no one as complained about what I have done yet! I guess this is exhausted so will marked it as answered! Thank you everyone. MM

                                • 13. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                  Community Member

                                  well, its been fun talking about this stuff... and dont forget.. use whatever works best ( like cardboard or whatever ! )

                                   

                                  the thing that intrigues me about this whole thing though...is it is like I had to do once on some hd material I had that I was testing to DVD SD ( in my case NTSC instead of PAL ).. on my OWN old tv set with old DVD player...

                                   

                                  since you dont have a wide screen TV you are in the same boat as me.

                                   

                                  what I did was I forced it to be letterboxed on the Old TV...

                                   

                                  The first export I did using normal workflow to export the HD to SD widescreen... showed me ONLY the cropped ( middle of the frame ) movie

                                  ... I did not get letterbox 16:9 image on TV... I only got what you are calling the "safe" area ( which is not really the 4:3 image but is sorta close at least )... The safe area you are seeing is really the title safe area I think... not the exact image we see on our old TV's ..

                                  On my mother's new widescreen TV the same DVD played correctly at 16:9 at her house... but not on my old TV.

                                   

                                  So I had to jump through some hoops to get the old TV to see the whole movie and forced the HD movie into a letterbox ( looks like 16:9 ).. that played nice on the Old TV.

                                   

                                  If THAT is what you would like to do at some point let me know.. and I'll do a quick test here and duplicate what I did before...( as it was a while back and I dont remember the exact procedure now )...

                                   

                                  This is the movie that I made into a dvd that plays letterbox on my old TV

                                   

                                  ps.. is not my shooting..someone else shot these clips and shared as samples and I edited the clips and added music...

                                   

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_bCN_gUyNk

                                   

                                  those are my first rolling credits, first graphics in beginning ( robodog), first still image with title, and my brother's music.. lots of firsts with that movie...

                                   

                                  first export I couldnt see the whole image on my TV.  So I made it ( forced it ) to letterbox

                                   

                                  so this fit on my old tv as letterbox ( black on sides and top and bottom )  and looked GOOD.

                                   

                                  dont laugh.. was learning editing brand new to me ( couple years learning from this forum and lynda's tutorials.. much help from many here re: how to do stuff , find info about stuff etc ).  I even made 2 big notebooks (spiral books ) of printed out materials on all this stuff ... took about 8 months of non stop study etc... to become the idiot I currently am.

                                   

                                  good luck !

                                   

                                   

                                  • 14. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                    Michelmnr Community Member

                                    Hi again, I must have given you the wrong idea. Actually that is all I have wide screens! I've got an old LCD  NEC 60" rear projection  and two (20 & 22") LCD TVs. My CRT TV  in my pc room will not get me play back from the pc and my dvds are hooked to the LCD TV

                                    I went to Canada 2 years ago and for this bought my little Everio HD JVC. This was not really a good move on my part, knowing so little and not equipped to handle HD which is a lot more than having a camera. As a result I had to upgrade all my system, incl. CS2 to CS4 and really I should have a Blue ray player....well you get the picture! And on top of all this I discover the pain to shoot without a viewer...through a 3 " screen, not the optimum situation. Anyway I did a couple of dvd for Canada with NTSC setting but exported on SD format - Apparently they were happy with it, Here I had nothing to test it! I have only Pal system. I have not done very much yet with my footages otherwise as I got Blue Ray tech. at the back of my mind and somehow it has not happened yet!   I see you say "you forced the letter box" I thought you can choose what output you want on the export settings. Like under PAL or NTSC you get several options eg. wide, standard 16:9 etc. I found out that if I use standard footage it does not seem to look right exported in wide format, just like interpreting footage with inappropriate size. This is a little my problem I have got a lot of info reading and through the forum and user group but it has not be digested properly! So I'm learning like a snail climbing a wall 2 feet upward then one down! Just the same in my limited ways I enjoy very much this hobby.

                                    • 15. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                      Community Member

                                      ahhhh, OK.. cool...

                                       

                                      =========

                                      I see you say "you forced the letter box" I thought you can choose what output you want on the export settings. Like under PAL or NTSC you get several options eg. wide, standard 16:9 etc. I found out that if I use standard footage it does not seem to look right exported in wide format, just like interpreting footage with inappropriate size. This is a little my problem I have got a lot of info reading and through the forum and user group but it has not be digested properly! So I'm learning like a snail climbing a wall 2 feet upward then one down! Just the same in my limited ways I enjoy very much this hobby.

                                      =========

                                      yes, your export gives you option for 'normal' 4:3 or 16:9 (not square pixels) export in SD..and for most people that works great to watch on old TV with new dvd player.  Or new lcd with new dvd looks good too.

                                      In MY CASE my old TV ( 4:3) and OLD dvd player...cropped the 16:9 to 4:3  but the same dvd looked OK on my mom's new lcd and new dvd player. It was just MY tv and old dvd player that cropped it.  So I forced it to letterbox for MY TV only ...which worked OK.

                                      That new export forcing letterbox on MY TV also looked OK on my mom's new TV and new dvd player ( but had black around the image as expected on hers ). 

                                      Anyway, none of this matters to you cause you have 16:9 TV ( I thought you only had old 4:3 tv like mine ).

                                       

                                      Soooo, moving on...yes, sometimes exporting HD as SD looks not so great ( I think the quality got better in CS5 for most HD to SD exports but am not sure about that.. There are threads here about exporting HD through "framesever" to virtualDub or some such programs ( maybe to sorenson squeeze too ? ) that Jeff Belune did tutorials on.. that apparently get better quality etc.

                                       

                                      Although I only understand vaguely whats going on.. I think the problem is basically going from square pixels to non square pixels and also from progressive to interlaced ..in the conversion to SD.. that makes it hard to get good quality...the process ( I think ) got better in CS5 and CS5.5.

                                       

                                      One thing to keep in mind though.. and I tested this ...it is true...

                                      sometimes when you export hd to sd and it looks like bad quality on your computer.. it actually looks GOOD when its on DVD and watched on TV.

                                      Can't trust what you see on computer is the bottom line when watching SD interlaced stuff.

                                       

                                      Well, it sounds like you are doing well and like everyone else taking 2 steps forward and one back .. learning this stuff and getting good results.

                                       

                                      == now about "viewer" on camera... I dont know if you are handy with tools and mechanical stuff.. but you probably have a thread somewhere on that camera or some area where you can attach a magic arm.

                                       

                                      http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&Ntt=Magic+Arm&A=endecaSearch&N=0&Q=&Ini tialSearch=yes

                                       

                                      you may need to put a small thread to larger thread adapter on camera if its 1/4" or something .. to 3/8"... must check thread sizes.. make sure stuff will fit OK...

                                      Then put a very inexpensive " spotting scope" on camera ( or build one yourself out of cardboard tube .. doesnt need to be magnified...just needs to 'point' at stuff ).  telescopes have low power inexpensive spotting scopes to find stars etc easily.. that sort of thing maybe.

                                       

                                      using magic arm controls line up your new " viewfinder" with center of screen.. and you have a nice viewfinder that you can use to follow fast action easily and so on.  This guy told me about using this on pro cameras to shoot fast action at football games.. otherwise its impossible to follow the action and pull focus and zoom lens at same time...

                                      In other words, on the pro camera ( cause it DOES have a viewfinder ) the spotting scope has a wider field of view than the camera viewfinder... but is centered ....so you see more, and can center action fast ..

                                       

                                      sample

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_54LGJbb5Q

                                      • 16. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                        Michelmnr Community Member

                                        Yes we're going off topic here but it's interesting to look at a made up viewer. I tried the other day going for a run shooting "Jacarandas" (here, and about one month before X'mas, these trees are magnificent and growing ever so more popular). So I tried to attach a contraption with a 10 mm tube and focused it on a light pole in the distance but in vain. It seemed to work only at a specific distance else it was no help anymore. I stroked the problem in Canada when our coach came to a sudden halt as a bear was about 40 yards away up on the sloped road side and for the life of me I could not find it despite the fact I was sitting near the right window (with another 10 people almost on top of me to get the shot too). I finally got it...but to realise it was a tree stomp instead - I still got lucky and got 5 sec of the real bear and since wondered what I could do about it. The real dilemma is that I got this camera because it was so small and now adding things on it will defeat the purpose! This camera is 5" long incl. battery, 2 wide and 2.5 high! Yes there is not much room to add anything on it!.

                                        BTW I enjoyed your Youtube work, very nice! I don't think this was shot with a toy like mine! :)

                                        • 17. Re: is there a way to limit the play back to the safe area in the program monitor?
                                          Community Member

                                          LOL... bear = stump of tree....

                                           

                                          I used to spend HOURS ( literally ) in back yard at night with telescope trying to find " planets" ...

                                           

                                          Even with spotting scope it took so much time to find them ( saturn, jupiter, mars etc ) I often had a pretty sore neck by the time I finally got it...and adjusting for spot scope to "distance" on cameras is sorta like having machine guns on spitfire in WW2.... adjusted to a particular " range" ( eg. 2000 yards etc. ).

                                           

                                          Is more fun to find bears and dear and footballs in flight than finding enemy planes to shoot down IMO.

                                          But ( notwithstanding the art aspect and moral deplorability ) its nice to do what you want when you want and get it right ...just in case that stupid en plane means you harm ( or bear ).

                                           

                                          nice to shoot beautiful stuff etc.. but its often the case that you cross technologies to do what you need. Like your cardboard on monitor.. whatever works for the purpose.