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    16 channel audio mixing

    remainz123 Community Member

      Hi

       

      I'm building a unique multi channel audio mix for a synchronised projected video installation.

       

      The most sensible way for me to mix my audio is in a 16 channel audio sequence.

       

      But I cant see how to save off any form of the final edit.

       

      The only save options I see are stereo , mono and 5.1 .

       

      Anything in channels over these options are just ignored.

      So a stereo export will ignore all channels from 3 to 16.

      And 5.1 will not export any audio channels above 6 etc

      And mono will not let me sellect which audio channel is chosen and there is no 16 channel save.

       

      Is it possible to save off each channel as a mono file?

       

      I am confused as to why you would offer this option if it cannot be exported even as 16 mono channels.

       

      thanks rem

        • 1. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
          the_wine_snob Community Member

          Why do you need all 16 discrete Audio channels in Export?

           

          How are you planning on playing 16 discrete Audio channels?

           

          Exactly how do you need to deliver the Exported material?

           

          Good luck, and please let us know a bit more.

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
            remainz123 Community Member

            I have a 10 channel audio mix for 5 synchronised videos with unique audio channels.

            1 stereo pair per screen played back from synced HD servers

             

            Obviously I would like to mix all these in one environment similtaneously.

             

            Anyway my question has not changed.

             

            How can you save out channels 1-16 in a 16 channel audio sequence?

             

            thanks

             

             

             

            rem

            • 3. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
              shooternz Community Member

              I dont fully understand what you are doing but I do suggest that it sounds like a task

              for a multitrack session in Audition.

               

              Seems that you need to mix audio in one session so you can hear a combined effect with the images ..then you want to break out parts of the mix to 5 Stereo tracks to play from independent devices in synch.

               

              You could do this in Audition then simply "bounce" whatever selected tracks you wanted ... down to  the stereo tracks.

               

              Similarly in Premiere...you could do it as submixes.

              • 4. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                remainz123 Community Member

                thanks for your suggestion

                 

                Audition only has stereo and 5.1 masters but I can bounce in either but Premiere has 16 channel master which makes mixing a lot easier.

                 

                As I have said Im making a custom installation so I dont expect for it to be understood here as Im just want to know one simple thing.

                 

                How do you get a 16 channel mix off of a timeline if you cant save it out in any way whatsoever?

                Not as 16 mono channels nor a single 16 channel file.

                • 5. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                  Pharther Phurther Community Member

                  Maybe send each to Audition .. then compile them there .. send them all back to PP?

                   

                  We have a studio with 16 tracks yet to test it with Audition .. I can understand what your trying .. but don't have the time to experiment .. having other issues.

                  • 6. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                    shooternz Community Member
                    As I have said Im making a custom installation so I dont expect for it to be understood here as Im just want to know one simple thing.

                     

                     

                    Well its very difficult for anyone to supply a simple answer to something that you dont expect us to even understand.

                     

                    To me a 16 channel mix means mixing down from 16 channels to a single audio file .

                     

                    You appear to need a single  audio file with 16 discrete channels.

                    • 7. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                      Stanley Arthur Community Member

                      Gonna try to break this down so that anyone could understand.

                       

                      You have 5 different video programs, apparently with no audio, that are going to appear on 5 different screens. Is that correct?

                       

                      OR... did you create one video program that has 5 pictures in it... like picture in picture x 5?

                       

                      You want 5 different stereo audio programs that you are going to somehow synchronize while these videos are playing... does that mean that you are going to be raising and lowering different audio programs to highlight different videos programs?

                       

                      OR... is it all going to play at once?

                       

                      You're either a genius or clueless as to how things work. Why don't you draw for us a picture so that we can better visualize what you're trying to do?

                      • 8. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                        remainz123 Community Member

                        shooternz

                        if this were true then the 16 channels would be bumped down to a stereo pair on export

                        but it doesnt

                         

                        all channels 3 -16 are simply ignored when you save off a wav or avi etc

                        they dont even appear in the audio mix

                         

                        So theres no advantage to having 16 channel mixing if you cant get the higher channels.

                         

                        What I want and have been clear about is that I want to get my 16 channel mix off the timeline into a file or several files. Right now, as far as I can see, that cant be done.

                        • 9. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                          remainz123 Community Member

                          ALL of the above. Sorry all who offering help, I really dont understand why my question is so difficult.

                          How do you get a 16 channel audio mix out of premiere?

                           

                          10 channle audio with 5 screens.jpg

                          I am making a 5 screen video installation where all screens are played at once and synchronized with their own sound per screen.

                          I have edited all the screens independently and then simultaneously by placing all the individual edited sequences into 1 final 16 channel audio sequence and shrinking them to fit into one 1920 pixels screen, just for editing the sound. 5 sequence in one, very easy and straight forward.  I can then edit all the audio layers simultaneously using my 10 channel soundcard, so I can see them together all at once while making a sound mix that allows them all to work together without sonically clashing.

                          There will be 10 speakers two per screen as expected. ( I may use less depending on the install, by overlapping channels 2/3, 4/5 etc)

                           

                          I'm not asking how to make my project or change it but simply the same question that I keep asking.

                          How do you get a 16 channel audio mix out of premiere? Eventually for me as 5 stereo pairs to put back on the original 5 video edits before exporting them individually.

                           

                          I think I am doing something that is beyond the software limitations. I just thought that the 16 channel audio sequence had a purpose.

                          Now I'm not so sure. Maybe its only there to impress professional editors who dont actually use it.

                          • 10. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                            JSS1138 Community Member

                            I found no way to get the 16 channel mix out of PP as discreet channels.  To mix down into 5.1, stereo or mono, you need to assign the channels properly in the Mixer window.

                            • 11. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                              shooternz Community Member

                              Just asking...

                               

                              Have you read page 206 of the Premiere manual?

                              • 12. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                Jon Chappell Community Member

                                Why not export each channel as an AIFF and recombine into the QuickTime movie?

                                • 13. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                  Stanley Arthur Community Member

                                  There is no export option in any professional video editing application to

                                  do what you are trying to do.

                                  • 14. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                    Jon-M-Spear Community Member

                                    There isn't a way.

                                     

                                    Dare I suggest that you may be tackling this back-to-front.

                                     

                                    I have produced similar installations where the key is to assemble, in this case 5, standalone video sequences, each with its own disparate audio channels.  We then use a programming system, such as the Dataton Watchout system to combine and sequence the material in the desired way.  Part of that programming process can include routing/ rerouting of the audio channels.

                                    • 15. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                      remainz123 Community Member

                                      Thanks for all your suggestions

                                       

                                      shooternz , the manual section you refer to does not mention 16 channel mixing, and Im interested in output options not mixing options, as the mixing all works fine.

                                       

                                      Jon Chappell , that is exactly what I want do do , thanks for understanding, the issue is that you cant do this, channels cannot be assigned on export to a stereo mix or any other kind. This would make perfect sense, and I assumed you could do this also.

                                       

                                      J-MS , thanks I don't see how Im doing this backwards though. I can do everything I want except save the audio out. I can place all the screens into one sequence and then mix all the audio using my 10 channel audio card.

                                      To make this work I need to mix all the audio at once.

                                       

                                      Stan Arthur, im beginning to realize this, but why then have a 16 channel mixing master?

                                       

                                      Jim Simon, this only works for stereo and 5.1 mixes, not 16 channel, mixes, all the audio above 6 are just ignored and not saved or outputted anywhere.

                                      It cannot be reassigned back from the 16 mix and the sequence cannot be placed into another sequence and submixed back to stereo etc.

                                       

                                      I dont want or need all the audio in one file just to be able to save out each stereo pair or 16 mono channels.

                                       

                                      I appreciate that this cannot be done now. I advise anyone else thinking of using 16 channel mixing to not bother as this is a half baked option.

                                       

                                      Here is a link describing how the wav format can handle any number of channels , 18 of which are illustrated here.

                                      http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006

                                      Logic would suggest that if you have a 16 channel master you would have a 16 channel output option. Especially if the wav format already accomodates this.

                                      • 16. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                        Stanley Arthur Community Member

                                        You don't have a 16 channel mixer. You have as many stereo or mono tracks as you need to create your video production. Those are mixed down to a stereo, mono or surround soundtrack during export. Why do you have the ability to create multiple video tracks? Obviously, so that you can mix different clips, titles, images and effects... but once you make a DVD (or whatever) from it, you do not maintain the ability to re-edit that DVD.

                                         

                                        Personally, I need to mix music with narration and sound effects, but I don't get the ability to remix these elements after I've output the program.Think of it this way: DVD players don't come with 16-channel audio mixers.You want the ability to maintain all your discrete tracks, but it does not exist in professional video editing or even audio recording (Pro Tools, Audition, etc.) applications.

                                         

                                        Now... that said... there is no reason why PPro could not be used in a live situation, just as it is in your edit suite, with audio track automation. The only limitation is that you are still limited to a stereo, mono or surround master output, depending on the house sound system. You could conceivably operate your PPro audio mixer manually, though it might not respond instantly like a real mixing surface would. There might be some latency there. And if you do something like this, I'd suggest multiple rehearsals in the live venue to be sure it's going to work without hiccups and crashes.

                                         

                                        You don't have multiple, audio outputs for the same reason that you don't have multiple screen outputs. As I recall, you have something like five different video clips playing, right (picture-in-picture)? But you mixed all of those onto ONE screen, didn't you? Same thing with audio.

                                        • 17. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                          remainz123 Community Member

                                          Im sorry but I have answered all your statements and shown they are incorrect many times already in this conversation.

                                           

                                          When you export a 16 channel mix it does not mix down to stereo or 5.1 . I have said this again and again.

                                          It should do this yes , but it doesn't!!!!!!

                                          I think it should also save as 16 mono channels , just like audition can do for a 5.1 export!

                                           

                                          5.1 sound is remixed to stereo after export on all DVD players as a standard feature!

                                          And this is irrelevant also.

                                           

                                          I need to mix all my video program soundtracks in one sequence as they will all be heard together and yes I can edit all the my video programs in once screen, by scaling then down and moving them, and then split them up on export, if I wanted to do it that way.

                                           

                                          You are completely missing the point here. A 16 channle master is for mixing 16 discreet audio channels. If there is no point in having a 16 channel mixer then why is it here?

                                          • 18. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                            JSS1138 Community Member

                                            If I reassign the channels of the 16 channel Master in the mixer window, they do indeed show up 'mixed' into the output.  If it is not doing so on your system, something is wrong.

                                            • 19. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                              Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                                              Does this help?

                                               

                                              Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 * Pan or balance a 16-channel track

                                               

                                              It's the same for CS5 and 5.5, but the topic doesn't get it's own page in the CS5.x help files.

                                               

                                              -Jeff

                                              • 20. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                Jon-M-Spear Community Member

                                                Unless I'm completely missing your issue here, it sounds as if you're wanting a 16-channel (or whatever) playback/replay system.

                                                 

                                                You have to accept  that final audio output/mastering is governed largely by popular usage and formats.  In the world in which audio/video is replayed using consumer devices, these formats are principally mono, stereo 5.1, 7.1 etc, etc.

                                                 

                                                There are multitrack DAWs which, to answer your question, is why multi channel audio mixers exist.  But even when DAWs perform their mixdown to master, they have to conform to the laws of audio formatting ie, mono, stereo. 5.1, 7.1 etc ,etc.  There is not an off-the-shelf piece of kit which allows you to break out  - and more importantly, replay - tracks in a random manner/format/combination.

                                                 

                                                I used to have 24-track, 2-inch tape recorder but, even though I could monitor each track independently, I had to mixdown the master into a recognisable format - in those days, mono or stereo.  .

                                                • 21. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                  remainz123 Community Member

                                                  hi

                                                   

                                                  no it doesnt

                                                   

                                                  once the audio has been sent to the master , in channels higher than 2 in a streo file or 6 in a 5.1 file, then in does not render in any exports, for me

                                                   

                                                  I am assigning and mixing the audio fine before the master. It is when it has got to the master that is the problem

                                                  • 22. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                    remainz123 Community Member

                                                    I just want to access my channels in a saved file , thats it simple.

                                                    But I cant , as they dont exist in any export

                                                    • 23. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                      Jon-M-Spear Community Member

                                                      No they don't - for the reasons I've just given.

                                                      • 24. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                        remainz123 Community Member

                                                        Jim Simon are you talking about assiging the channels on their way to the master?

                                                        That is not the problem. That is why Im using the 16 channel mixer in the first place

                                                         

                                                        I see nowhere that channels can be assigned on export and you cant put a 16 channel sequence in another sequence of any kind.

                                                        And I dont think Im doing anything wrong.

                                                         

                                                        If you create a 16 channel sequence

                                                        assign each stereo audio layer to a seperate chanel , so Audio 1 goes to 1+2, audio 2 goes to 3+4 etc etc, in the mixer window10 channel.jpg

                                                        put 5 stereo sounds on 5 audio layers

                                                        and export

                                                        only the channels in 1 and 2 will be in a stereo wav and 1-6 will be in a 5.1 wav.

                                                         

                                                        I suggest you didnt assign your channels correctly

                                                        • 25. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                          remainz123 Community Member

                                                          yes but you cant mix down to stereo even

                                                          • 26. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                            Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                                                            From the help files:

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            You can specify the channel in a target hardware audio device for each channel in a sequence Master track. You map channels in the Audio Output Mapping pane of the Preferences dialog box. Premiere Pro plays each sequence channel through the hardware channel you specify. For example, your project could have a 5.1-channel sequence, but your system hardware might support only two channels. You could specify which of the two hardware channels carries each of the six sequence channels.

                                                            16-channel sequences, however, remain mapped to 16 output channels if the selected hardware device has fewer than 16 channels. For example, the selected device could have only two channels. You could then map only the first two channels of a 16-channel sequence to the two hardware channels.

                                                            <emphasis added>

                                                             

                                                            If you'd like this behavior to change, go here:

                                                             

                                                            Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                                                             

                                                            -Jeff

                                                             

                                                            EDIT: More info on how to map output channels:

                                                             

                                                            Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 & CS5.5 * Mapping source and output audio channels

                                                            • 27. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                              remainz123 Community Member

                                                              thanks jeff

                                                               

                                                              I understand this all now. It just seems a bit of a waste.

                                                               

                                                              What is the point of a 16 channel master if it doesnt give you any option to save or mixdown these higher channels whatsoever?

                                                               

                                                              I will add a request

                                                              • 28. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
                                                                What is the point of a 16 channel master if it doesnt give you any option to save or mixdown these higher channels whatsoever?

                                                                If I understand it correctly, it's for output via a 16-channel board.  All channels, including the higher channels, are saved in your Pr project file.  There is no audio format or codec of which I'm aware that supports 16 channels in a single file.

                                                                 

                                                                -Jeff

                                                                • 29. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                  JSS1138 Community Member

                                                                  I see nowhere that channels can be assigned on export

                                                                   

                                                                  No. not during export. In the Mixer window, as you have circled in your screen grab.  If you assign them there to any of the channels that get exported, they show up.

                                                                   

                                                                  I'm afraid that's the best you will get out of PP.

                                                                  • 30. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                    leoneed27 Community Member

                                                                    Hi!

                                                                    Did you find the solution?

                                                                    I also need export with 16-channels sound.

                                                                    I'm using Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse. It allows to output videofiles with 16-channel sound. Blackmagic Media Desktop utility is able to capture and playback AVI and WAV files with 16-channel sound but I'm unable to find Windows7 software to prerare such files for output.

                                                                    • 31. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                      Neil Wilkes Community Member

                                                                      Jeff Bellune wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      What is the point of a 16 channel master if it doesnt give you any option to save or mixdown these higher channels whatsoever?

                                                                      If I understand it correctly, it's for output via a 16-channel board.  All channels, including the higher channels, are saved in your Pr project file.  There is no audio format or codec of which I'm aware that supports 16 channels in a single file.

                                                                       

                                                                      -Jeff

                                                                      Exactly so.

                                                                       

                                                                      The point of the 16-channel master is to output - individually - 16 channels to an external mixing console via suitable hardware in your system.

                                                                      To make this work, you will need 16 outputs on your Audio Card, routed to 16 channels of mixing desk (this could be analogue or digital, but be aware with Digital you will likely need either 2 ADAT outs (giving you a total of up to 16 channels) or else 16 Analogue outputs, or else a MADI system.

                                                                      Whilst it is theoretically possible to render this type of multichannel output to MLP Lossless or Dolby True HD this will result in a file that is nigh on unplayable as there is no hardware outside of dedicated and expensive post production or studio hardware to play it back.

                                                                      B-WAV-EXTENSIBLE can handle massive channel counts as an interleaved file - but to export this type of interleaved file you will at the very least need a 16-channel sound card.

                                                                      See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006#E6C for details on this, but again - no consumer hardware exists that supports this as yet.

                                                                       

                                                                      What you cannot do is render out a 16-channel interleaved file. The point is to allow 16 individual outputs to an external console.

                                                                      • 32. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                        leoneed27 Community Member

                                                                        Hi!

                                                                        As I stated before I'm using Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse. (http://www.blackmagic-design.com) It's 16-channel audio + SD-HD video interface. Decklink Media Desktop used for capture and playback works with AVI, MOV and WAV files. But all channels of audio MUST BE IN SINGLE FILE. One can open and use multichannel A/V files captured with Decklink Media Desktop in Premiere. Premiere correctly recognizes all audio channels from such files.

                                                                        If you have 16-channel master in timeline you can edit all channels separately, but you can't SAVE or EXPORT the result!

                                                                         

                                                                        I think descussion here WAS NOT about use of 16-channel files, but about BUG when you can do only half of job!

                                                                        • 33. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                          matthew.drury Community Member

                                                                          I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I was just trying to do the same thing.  The only way I found was combining them in Quicktime Pro.  Export each stereo pair as stereo files (or all as mono).  Then export the video in the format/compression you want with no audio.  Open the video and all audio files in QT Pro.  Go to the first audio file and select all, copy.  Go to video, make sure playhead is at beginning and select Edit/Add to Movie.  Repeat for each audio track in order making sure to bring the playhead back to the beginning.  Then save the file and it should be good to go.  Pain in the butt workaround, though.

                                                                           

                                                                          But yes, this is a total miss on Adobe's part.  Capture files come in with multiple tracks, and plenty of people need live mixing capability.

                                                                          • 34. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                            Pharther Phurther Community Member

                                                                            There should be a Dynamic Link to Audition .. like the rest of the Suite.

                                                                             

                                                                            Please don't post "Send Adobe Feature Request" comments / posts to this, 'Moderators'. .. it is past the point of enlightening engineers how to do their job.

                                                                             

                                                                            Forum .. I'm back and I have a whole slew of comments to make .. especially about features / bugs that have yet to be addressed ONE YEAR LATER!!!

                                                                            • 35. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                              Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                                                                              Forum .. I'm back and I have a whole slew of comments to make .. especially about features / bugs that have yet to be addressed ONE YEAR LATER!!!

                                                                              As long as those comments remain civil, on-topic and PG-rated, then slew away.

                                                                               

                                                                              -Jeff

                                                                              • 36. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                                Pharther Phurther Community Member

                                                                                Jeff .. Please refresh my faded memory:

                                                                                 

                                                                                Do you use a Mac running Snow Leopard / Lion with the Adobe Master Suite or Premiere Pro installed?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Do you use multi-track audio and video?

                                                                                • 37. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                                  Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                                                                                  Nope. PC only. Sorry.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  -Jeff

                                                                                  • 38. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                                    Pharther Phurther Community Member

                                                                                    We use Logic Pro 9 with 16 Channels Import and Export via Prosonus V-Fire Firewire / Roland R-Bus to a Roland VM-7100.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Problem is nobody updated the V-Fire interface to anything newer than Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11

                                                                                     

                                                                                    If someone authored a driver for Lion then ther may be a solution .. since these VM units are of excellent sound quality.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I havent got to import . export betweeen Audition and Logic yet.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Also there is a video componenet in Logic I didnt use.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    This may not be helpful .. but it is where our studio is at.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: 16 channel audio mixing
                                                                                      leoneed27 Community Member

                                                                                      Does anyone know if feature of 16-channel audio export was included in version CS6? Thanks to all!

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