I should add:
why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when [...] you're convinced that it's unnecessary?
We're not "convinced it is unncessary."
We are not convinced it is necessary.
And you're not doing a good job of convincing us, by showing even a single compelling use case.
I've written everything I'm going to write. All the information is in my posts. If you don't get it, there's nothing more I can say. You guys rule the roost here.
Is there any way I can get my account erased?
I'm really sorry you feel like you've been beaten up. I know that wasn't my intention. I had some hope the you were going to show us an example, but I'm afraid I don't see any explanation of where seeing outlines is valuable in what you posted. I'd be setting up artboards in Illustrator the size of each panel, then placing in ID using smart guides to center in each block. I see no need, in fact, to even have that template behind the art other than convenience for seeing which panel is which.
Since you brought up "Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI" I'm going to turn this around on you. John and I are both quite expert in the use of InDesign (and I was a Quark power user before I made the switch for production work at ID 2.0 -- version 1 wasn't really ready for prime time). You keep bringing up how you work in Quark and Illustrator. ID is neither of those programs. If you think the only thing that would make ID superior to Quark is the addition of a view outlines mode, I guess you probably haven't really become comfortable in the ID paradigm (I freely admit I'm lost most times now when I have to work on a Quark file because I've goten so used to being able to do things without opeing a dialog of some sort to make any change at all, and I stopped upgrading Quark at version 6, though I've had the "pleasure" of using version 9 when helping another client of one of my printers. I could have completely rebuilt his entire file in ID in the time it took to scale the images and clean up his Quark file.) I think the industry, in general, has spoken about which layout application is going to be the leader going forward, and ID was never intended, or marketed, as a substitute for a full featured vector editor like Illustrator. ID is a layout application with some word processing capabilities and some vector editing capabilities for the convenience of users who need to simple word processing or vector editing tasks, but is not intended to subsume the entore functions of dedicated applictations, and very few users of InDesign, if these forums are any sort of market sample, would want ID to get more bloated duplicating these types of features.
Oh, I got so caught up I forgot to make my other point...
"All the information is in my posts. If you don't get it, there's nothing more I can say." One thing Iearned early on as a spouse, parent, and teacher is that if the person to whom you are explaining someting doesn't understand what you are saying, repeating the same words, even at a louder pitch, doesn't help. You need to find another way to get your point across. I've seen you repeat over and over that this is an obviously desirable addition, but not once have you led me step by step though what seems obvious to you, but is clear as mud to me.
Man you guys are brutal. LOL
I guess I'm not good at explaining it... which seems odd because I always fancied myself as quite eloquent and succinct. Oh well.
Anyhow, we'll just have to leave it at that. The only way you guys could be convinced of the benefits of View Outlines would be if you yourselves were already into using that feature extensively in AI. There's no point in me exhausting myself trying to explain it on this forum, even though you suggest that during any heated discussion, one should try using another example rather than repeating the same thing... good advice, but that won't work here for the simple fact that no matter what I were to put forth, you guys will obviously be able to show me how it can be done in ID without using View Outlines.
In fact anything can, and is, being done all the time in ID without this feature, so View Outlines is clearly not a necessary addition to the app. But I'm not talking about it as being an absolute necessity... it's simply a 'method of working'. If that seems ambiguous to you, I can only state that many, many apps offer several alternate ways of 'getting the job done'. People who are used to using View Outlines will swear by it as an essential tool, and they will know exactly what I'm talking about. That's why you are getting other inquiries about this, and you will continue to. It's not just me!
I really honestly have to sign out now on this subject, and we'll just have to wait and see who else shows up, and if they can offer any alternate way of explaining this whole issue. I suppose I'll receive email notifications if there are any further discussions, so it'll be interesting to see what transpires.
Meanwhile I'm going to take another look at Smart Guides and see if I can find a way to get them to cover for all the things I miss about View Outlines.
That was quite a discussion. Phew!!
Meanwhile, how about those Pats! What a game! Woohoo! Gotta take care of Flacco next week and then on to the SB!
Ferroid, are you just ignoring the things we wrote?
The only way you guys could be convinced of the benefits of View Outlines would be if you yourselves were already into using that feature extensively in AI.
I've told you several times:
We do use View Outlines extensively in Adobe Illustrator!!!
John, no need to get emotional and start yelling at people. Just try to stay calm. We're trying to have a polite discussion here.
You may have used View Outlines for certain files you're creating in AI, but you're not way into AI to the point where this tool has become an automatic reflex that you rely on constantly throughout your work, so you won't have the same level of appreciation for it that I do. Further, I can guarantee that you're nowhere near my level of expertise in AI. I'm not just some guy talking through my hat on your forum. I'm a world class illustrator (and I hope I can say that without incurring your wrath yet again). I've attached my latest piece which I just completed last night just to give you an example.
That aside, please accept my sincerest apologies (once again) if I've upset you in any way, or if you feel that I haven't "absorbed" the points you're trying to make. You guys are doing a great job over there in NE, and I will endeavor to try to learn to use ID better in the future. I concede that you guys are the true experts in ID. My expertise is more with AI, PS and 3D anim anyway, so I probably shouldn't even have signed in to this forum. You guys truly know your stuff, inside and out. That's terrific.
I really have to disconnect myself from this forum now though because I have a ton of work to do here, so if you can please refrain from pushing this issue any further, it will be greatly appreciated. If there's any way we can get my account deleted I would really appreciate that too. Let me know how that can be done. Thanks!
Well I must agree with the fact that in design should have outline feature. Due to the reason that adobe products have been successfull for the similarity of things. Like adobe photoshop has the same features as ai. It is this similarity of tools between different softwares gave an edge to ai on freehand. Its like you are new to id and you don't have the basic option you have become accustomed to using for many years. This kind of things make people move away from the softwares.
Can any one tell me what are effects doing in illustrator dont we have all of them in photoshop (even more which also show even better there) and can create them and place that image in illustrator? Its due to the reason that when ur creating somthing its nice to have these added features which increase productivity and keeps synergy.. Hope to see outline in next version.. hopefully..
I can't say that I recall Photoshop having a View Outlines mode, either.
I'm working on a piece now that is a template of a beer list to be placed on a dark background, but the text is white, I'd like to be able to see my white text on the white background.
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