1 2 Previous Next 57 Replies Latest reply: Feb 11, 2012 1:56 PM by Kiwi-Al RSS

    Soft Proofing

    Jay Mitchosky Community Member

      Wow.

       

      Incredibly powerful softproofing.  It's overwhelming to have all of the Develop module tools at my disposal to compensate for output.  In Photoshop I would just use a couple of adjustment layers for curves and color.  Well done.

       

      Performance/Operational notes for beta...

       

      1) Sluggish, delay between action and result.  Makes it difficult and frustrating to work with.  To the extent that if this reflects final release performance I would stick with my present workflow and export a copy of the file to Photoshop to create my output specific soft-proofed profile where changes are instant.

      2) Would prefer the ability to make desired changes and then create the proof copy rather than it coming up after first adjustment. 

      3) This is a preference thing, but I think most soft proofing workflows rely on having the original side-by-side as a constant basis of comparison.  Allow for that view to be a default when turning on soft proofing?

        • 1. Re: Soft Proofing
          Christian Spyr

          Absolutely agree with point 3)! Unless I missed how to do this, this would need to be implemented to make soft proofing in LR perfect.

          • 3. Re: Soft Proofing
            Jay Mitchosky Community Member

            Another question re: proofing, specifically the paper gamut warning.  In the past I have heard pros such as JP Caponigro and Jeff Schewe suggest that the gamut warning in PS was somewhat useless as it was a bit overzealous on what was in or out.  Has the warning algorithm in LR4 been modified such that its presentation of out-of-gamut colors is more accurate (given the quality of the profile, of course)?  Likewise for the monitor gamut?

             

            Also, and I don't even know if this is possible, but the gamut warning seems to be an all-or-nothing indicator like blinkies on your camera's LCD.  Is it possible to have a warning that gradates to show the degree that a color (or colors) are out of gamut?  Would allow a bit more insight into how far off the mark the selected output media will be compared to the content of the file.

            • 4. Re: Soft Proofing
              Jay Mitchosky Community Member

              While I'm thinking of  it, given we now have a monitor gamut warning I'm wondering if there is a such thing as a screen profile for an iPad?  Would be amazing to load an iPad's screen profile into softproofing to use the available tools along with the monitor gamut warning to fine tune images for presentation on an iPad-based portfolio.

              • 5. Re: Soft Proofing
                Jeff Schewe Community Member

                Jay Mitchosky wrote:

                 

                Another question re: proofing, specifically the paper gamut warning.  In the past I have heard pros such as JP Caponigro and Jeff Schewe suggest that the gamut warning in PS was somewhat useless as it was a bit overzealous on what was in or out.

                 

                No, I've said it wasn't terribly useful because it only tells you what is out of gamut but not by how much or what it'll look like in the outut space. LR's out of gamut still has that limitation. It's tells you a color is out of gamut but not by how much. What is far more useful and important is to look at the image under soft proofing to see what it WILL look like. In that way, you can decide whether or not you want to change the appearance. Yes, you can toggle on the OOG warning to see what is out of gamut and turn it off to make corrections. Just note that being out of gamut is a fact of life when printing. There's no rule you MUST bring colors into gamut...just use the soft proofing to make the image look as good as it can when printed.

                • 6. Re: Soft Proofing
                  Jay Mitchosky Community Member

                  Thanks for the clarification, Jeff.

                  • 7. Re: Soft Proofing
                    Kiwi-Al Community Member

                    Thanks for the succinct clarrification. I agree that as currently implemented in PS and LR4 OMG warning is not that useful, and you still have to closely inspect the softproof with a calibrated monitor. I would think that adding a more sophisticated OOG warning than the current 'blinkies' may make LR4 quite bloated, amd maybe undermine Photoshop.

                    • 8. Re: Soft Proofing
                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                      The OOG warning is mostly for educational purposes. It helps new users understand that there's this thing called a "gamut" and some of your image colors may not preview properly on your display, and may not print as you expect.  It's not really intended to help users edit their images (that's what the normal soft proof vis is for).

                      • 9. Re: Soft Proofing
                        CASpyr Community Member

                        Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață wrote:

                         

                        Like this?

                        http://forums.adobe.com/thread/947379?tstart=120

                        Thanks Dorin for the pointer! I saw this when I played around with soft proofing briefly but was under the false impression that also the 'before' version changed appearance when engaging soft proofing (probably because of the changing background color).

                        However, all is well and the feature has been implemented superbly! I'm a happy camper now!

                        • 10. Re: Soft Proofing
                          Master GF

                          Background color should not change when SP is turned on... It make it harder to evaluate the image

                          • 11. Re: Soft Proofing
                            Butch_M Community Member

                            Master GF wrote:

                             

                            Background color should not change when SP is turned on... It make it harder to evaluate the image

                             

                            You can right-click on the proofing background and set it to from the default to the shade of gray or white or black as you prefer) ... though I think the whole reason it changes is to emulate "paper white" ...

                            • 12. Re: Soft Proofing
                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                              Correct, the default behavior is to put the simulated paper white in the background (i.e., images printed with margin will have paper white around them).  But like Butch_M said, you can change that.

                              • 13. Re: Soft Proofing
                                Jay Mitchosky Community Member

                                Jay Mitchosky wrote:

                                 

                                ...wondering if there is a such thing as a screen profile for an iPad?  Would be amazing to load an iPad's screen profile into softproofing to use the available tools along with the monitor gamut warning to fine tune images for presentation on an iPad-based portfolio.

                                 

                                Any thoughts on this?

                                • 14. Re: Soft Proofing
                                  Butch_M Community Member

                                  While I am not aware of any specific color profile for the iPad ... as it is not a color managed system, though generally very accurate from device to device ... If you process the image to look it's best in sRGB, it should look very good on most any iOS device.

                                  • 15. Re: Soft Proofing
                                    Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                    I think you can profile it using some kind of remote desktop software.

                                    În data de 12.01.2012 22:37, "Jay Mitchosky" <forums@adobe.com> a scris:

                                     

                                    **

                                       Re: Soft Proofing  created by Jay Mitchosky<http://forums.adobe.com/people/Jay+Mitchosky>in

                                    Photoshop Lightroom 4 - View the full discussion<http://forums.adobe.com/message/4136412#4136412>

                                     

                                    • 16. Re: Soft Proofing
                                      Jay Mitchosky Community Member

                                      Butch_M wrote:

                                       

                                      While I am not aware of any specific color profile for the iPad ... as it is not a color managed system, though generally very accurate from device to device ... If you process the image to look it's best in sRGB, it should look very good on most any iOS device.

                                       

                                      Good point.  And (presumably since I haven't tried it yet) one could save proofing adjustments for specific outputs as presets to use a starting point as with any other preset.  So be it iPad or paper or whatever you could easily recall the correction to apply to a group of images.  Definitely will improve the workflow to port photos to an iPad for presentation.

                                      • 17. Re: Soft Proofing
                                        thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                        MadManChan2000 wrote:

                                         

                                        The OOG warning is mostly for educational purposes. It helps new users understand that there's this thing called a "gamut" and some of your image colors may not preview properly on your display, and may not print as you expect.  It's not really intended to help users edit their images (that's what the normal soft proof vis is for).

                                        Can someone explain why the OOG warning on the left side doesn’t update to reflect the output profile or working space profile selected in this pane? Since it doesn’t update, I assume the comparison is MelissaRGB to the display profile. That would be real useful in the non soft proof mode while working on my masters prior to soft proofing. But when IN soft proofing, should the overlay not show us the OOG colors of the display compared to the profile selected in that pane? I could see based on say Adobe RGB being selected, which OOG colors appear on an sRGB-like display. What am I missing with this one OOG overlay?

                                        • 18. Re: Soft Proofing
                                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                          Andrew, the OOG warning on the left (display) is to show which colors in the source rendered image are outside your display's gamut.  This is independent of the choice of destination profile (e.g., "Pro38 PLPP" for Epson 3800 + Premium Luster).

                                           

                                          You can think of this as a comparison of the image's colors in Lr's internal working space (ProPhoto RGB primaries) to your display.

                                          • 19. Re: Soft Proofing
                                            thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                            MadManChan2000 wrote:

                                             

                                            Andrew, the OOG warning on the left (display) is to show which colors in the source rendered image are outside your display's gamut.  This is independent of the choice of destination profile (e.g., "Pro38 PLPP" for Epson 3800 + Premium Luster).

                                             

                                            You can think of this as a comparison of the image's colors in Lr's internal working space (ProPhoto RGB primaries) to your display.

                                            That’s what I assumed but thanks for conformation. That will help in my next soft proof video.

                                             

                                            Seems a much more useful overlay outside this soft proof mode in Develop and a shame we can’t compare the OOG of the display to the profile we select.

                                            • 20. Re: Soft Proofing
                                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                              Not sure what you mean, Andrew.  As you know, you can turn on both the display OOG and destination profile OOG at the same time.  That will show you which colors in your image are (1) OOG of your display only, (2) OOG of your destination (e.g., printer) only, and (3) OOG of both.

                                              • 21. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                MadManChan2000 wrote:

                                                 

                                                Not sure what you mean, Andrew.  As you know, you can turn on both the display OOG and destination profile OOG at the same time.  That will show you which colors in your image are (1) OOG of your display only, (2) OOG of your destination (e.g., printer) only, and (3) OOG of both.

                                                 

                                                My understanding is that when using the OOG indicator on the right panel, I am comparing the internal color space to the output profile. So if I set sRGB, I see the clipping based on that internal color space versus sRGB. The display profile is not part of this process. That OOG is indeed useful and necessary.

                                                 

                                                What I want to see is how how Adobe RGB (1998) and the display interact in terms of OOG. I want to see on an sRGB-like display, the colors that are OOG for Adobe RGB (1998) of which I will export. Or any other profile I could select. So in theory, I’d select Adobe RGB and the clipping icon on the left. I’d see an overlay of colors I can’t see on my display from Adobe RGB (1998).

                                                 

                                                IF the left OOG always show the internal color space + display profile, how do I setup this to show me display + output OOG?

                                                 

                                                What I expected was that OOG icon on left accesses the loaded profile in the soft proof panel and compares itself to display profile. Icon on the right takes loaded profile and compares itself to the internal color space I edit the images with.

                                                 

                                                If the behavior were as I expected, then as you update the a profile, the OOG for display would update because it now shows you what OOG colors in the destination can’t fit the display. But you have indicated it is always locked to the internal processing color space. That kind of OOG would be very useful as an option when not in the soft proof mode. As I edit my master, I can see an overlay that indicates OOG between display and internal color space. When I enter soft proof, the indicator now wires up to what profile I have selected. One OOG for display, one OOG for output. Make sense? Or am I just confusing both of us <g>?

                                                • 22. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                  BobDiN Community Member

                                                  Andrew,

                                                   

                                                  I am having trouble seeing the value in LR4's “Monitor Gamut Warning".  The OOG blue area is the same on my wide gamut NEC monitor whether I am using my wide gamut profile or the sRGB emulation profile.  Is that what you would expect?  This does not surprise me because, for the life of me, I can't imagine how LR4 would be able to recognize a profile embedded in the monitor vs. an OS monitor profile.

                                                   

                                                  However, when I drag the Lightroom window from my wide gamut monitor to my secondary sRGB monitor, the 00G blue area increases.  Again, this does not surprise me because Lightroom is sampling the data through an OS monitor profile. It appears to me that only the right, "Destination Gamut Warning" icon has significant value in our soft proofing. 

                                                   

                                                  As I said, I am having trouble seeing the value of the “Monitor Gamut Warning" except to tell me, "fool, you're trying to adjust colors that cannot even be displayed on your screen… move on".  I guess if that is all it is telling me then maybe it has some value - but not much!

                                                   

                                                  Any thoughts on wide gamut monitors with embedded profiles and LR4's “Monitor Gamut Warning" feature?

                                                  Bob

                                                  • 23. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                    thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                    BobDiN wrote:

                                                    Any thoughts on wide gamut monitors with embedded profiles and LR4's “Monitor Gamut Warning" feature?


                                                    My thoughts are expressed here: http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov

                                                     

                                                    This was originally done on a wide gamut display FWIW. I’m scratching my head about the use of the Display Gamut overlay as a feature in the soft proof mode.

                                                    • 24. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                      As I explained earlier, it's mostly educational.  Basically, if a color is flagged by the display OOG warning overlay, you can't expect a good screen-to-print match because the color is OOG on your screen.  (So, even if the color is within gamut on your printer, and you have a perfect printer profile, and your screen is correctly calibrated, and your print-to-screen viewing conditions are optimized, etc., you'll still get a mismatch for that reason.)

                                                      • 25. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                        thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                        Thank you for taking the time to explain. That said, I still don’t get it.

                                                        Basically, if a color is flagged by the display OOG warning overlay, you can't expect a good screen-to-print match because the color is OOG on your screen.

                                                        Based on Melissa RGB if I understand this correctly. It is Display profile + Melissa RGB. And that would be useful outside the soft proof mode when editing the master. The data is in Melissa RGB. The display gamut is more than likely smaller depending on the image. Here the overlay would be useful.

                                                         

                                                        But in soft proof mode, I select a profile. The color appearance on-screen uses that profie. The histogram uses that profile. The RGB numbers use that profile. How then is seeing OOG for Melissa RGB plus display useful? This is what I don’t understand. What is more, if I select a profile for say my Epson 4900 on Luster paper, I’m pretty sure there are OOG colors in that space compared to my wide gamut display. Seeing that while making my output specific edits for a color space that will be converted to the Epson seems far more useful than introducing Melissa RGB which has long ago left the building.

                                                         

                                                        In a real world example, I’m editing output specific edits for that 4900. I decide based on the soft proof, I want to crank up Vibrance. OOG for Melissa RGB doesn’t help me at all. But seeing OOG for Epson 4900 and my display might keep me from cranking up Vibrance to a degree that only when I output the data, do I see I went way too far. If you simply hook up the OOG for display + selected profile, I’d see this. And if the current behavior is so educational (Melissa RGB overlay compared to the display), just load that profile in your soft proof mode. I built such a profile in Photoshop to use in LR and it would be easy, you guys could install one instead. I simply pick Melissa RGB and click on the overlay. Best of both worlds. The current architecture forces me to always use a color space I’ll never encode to, and has absolutely no bearing on the current editing mode.

                                                         

                                                        Again, what am I missing?

                                                        • 26. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                          BobDiN Community Member

                                                          Andrew,

                                                           

                                                          Thanks for the video. It explained much and will influence my observation as I move forward with LR4b.

                                                           

                                                          The Use of Soft-Proof

                                                          My biggest fear is people will overuse this long awaited soft-proof tool.  It may become a staple in their workflow for every photo.  I feel this powerful soft proofing tool should “call out” to us for its use. We should work as normal - until we produce a print that is not satisfying... that is the “call out". Then we should use the soft proofing tool to create a virtual soft-proof copy - for that photo!

                                                           

                                                          For those who are satisfied with their monitor to print match - utilizing soft-proofing for every photo might move us away from that satisfaction  …especially when the red OOG warning shows the same whether a color it is slightly or greatly OOG.

                                                           

                                                          As a trainer/teacher of Lightroom since its inception, let me offer my estimation of users who are satisfied with their “monitor to print match” when printing from Lightroom – again, not scientific but a large sampling:

                                                          Level of Color Management                                        % Satisfaction

                                                          • Managed by Printer                                                        10 / 10
                                                          • ICC Profile Color Management                                    65 / 75
                                                            • set printer’s color management “off”
                                                            • use proper ICC output profile
                                                          • Calibrated Monitor                                                           15 / 90
                                                            • (preferably wide gamut)
                                                          • Need for Soft-Proofing                                                      8 / 98

                                                           

                                                          Letting LR Convert from Melissa RGB to sRGB

                                                          Noticing the very acceptable results from "Exporting" to sRGB from LR, it seems there would be no need to soft-proof in Develop for sRGB as an output color space when the final output is to "Web" or to a “Publish” service.  I am assuming Lightroom uses the same process to convert from Melissa RGB to sRGB when using the "Web" module or a “Publishing” service. Correct?


                                                          Just my thoughts,

                                                          Thanks Again

                                                          Bob

                                                          • 27. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                            thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                            BobDiN wrote:

                                                            Letting LR Convert from Melissa RGB to sRGB

                                                            Noticing the very acceptable results from "Exporting" to sRGB from LR, it seems there would be no need to soft-proof in Develop for sRGB as an output color space when the final output is to "Web" or to a “Publish” service.

                                                            In terms of building web galleries or images for the web, maybe considering not all browsers are ICC aware, we have no idea if users have calibrated their displays etc. My take here is that the Gamut overlay and editing based on that overlay isn’t effective. I’ve asked viewers to test their own images and make their own decisions. Many people have to supply sRGB for other output uses so they may wish to at least soft proof to that space.

                                                             

                                                            Yes, the conversions for web galleries and such should be the same as you see with an export to sRGB. What isn’t obvious in LR4b is that Flash galleries are now color managed! That is most welcome for those of us on wide gamut displays viewing LR generated Flash galleries.

                                                             

                                                            Trying to get my head around Eric’s last comments, I was wondering if the issue with the Display Gamut overlay is that even though we are soft proofing a different profile than Melissa RGB, maybe it isn’t possible to provide a gamut overlay based on the currently selected profile in the soft proof dialog. The data is after all in Melissa RGB so LR would have to in essence “convert” from Melissa RGB to the selected profile then use that profile and the display profile for a gamut overlay. But Photoshop’s Print dialog, does have a ‘three way’ OOG preview when using Proof, so maybe is possible. That is, I can open a document in ProPhoto RGB in CS5, select Proof and then another profile and I do see the OOG overlay update if Proof is on or off. That leads me to believe I’m seeing OOG for ProPhoto RGB + output profile when Proof is off, when Proof is on, OOG updates to show ProPhoto RGB + output profile + Proof profile.

                                                            • 28. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                              Rene-) Community Member

                                                              Yeah, you can change the color, but the options to choose from are different. Not a big issue though IMO.

                                                              A bigger issue (IMO) is that the "lights out" mode when softproofing makes the screen go white (instead of dim) and that behaviour cannot be changed (at least, not that I can find)

                                                              • 29. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                Jao vdL MVP

                                                                Andrew,

                                                                 

                                                                I am not so sure why you are confused about the display OOG warning. The point is simply to caution the user that is using soft proofing that even though you are soft proofed, you will not see a preview of the printed color in those areas as your display simply cannot show them. I am guessing that the OOG display warning is for a double conversion of first to printer profile and then to display profile as Lightroom has to generate the image in that color space anyway for display but that is probably not that important.

                                                                 

                                                                The data is after all in Melissa RGB so LR would have to in essence “convert” from Melissa RGB to the selected profile then use that profile and the display profile for a gamut overlay.

                                                                That is exactly what LR does as I understand it. It is an accurate description of what softproofing is. It HAS to convert (maybe more accurately is to say generate a copy in the destination space) to the selected profile from the source space and subsequently to the display profile in order to show you the image "soft proofed". If it would't it could not show you anything. As you undoutedly know, to show any accurtate color, you always have to convert to the display profile no matter whether you are soft proofing or not. I believe Lightroom shows you the red OOG warning based on the result of the first conversion step and the blue one based on the second step. There might be slight subtleties in implementation but I think this is close to how it has to be done to be correct.

                                                                 

                                                                I would agree BTW that a display OOG warning would be very useful also outside of the soft proof for general editing to avoid over pushing your image and ending up with an even more hypersaturated image than you saw on the screen but I can see why Adobe wanted to keep it simple and keep OOG warnings all in one place. The over under indicators you see in Develop outside of soft proof are not really OOG warnings, but more accurately described as under/over warnings as you really cannot push colors out of prophotoRGB without going to horrid extremes. That is of course the whole point of using a space with prophotRGB primaries that it is wide enough to contain anything.

                                                                • 30. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                  Butch_M Community Member

                                                                  Rene-) wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  Yeah, you can change the color, but the options to choose from are different. Not a big issue though IMO.

                                                                  A bigger issue (IMO) is that the "lights out" mode when softproofing makes the screen go white (instead of dim) and that behaviour cannot be changed (at least, not that I can find)

                                                                   

                                                                  When in Softproofing ... before you go to Lights Out mode, right-click in the white matte area and you can select any shade from white, gray to black for the Softproofing matte ... it defaults to Paper White I believe for the profile selected ... assuming you picked a printer/paper combination profile ...

                                                                  • 31. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                    thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                                    Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                    I am not so sure why you are confused about the display OOG warning. The point is simply to caution the user that is using soft proofing that even though you are soft proofed, you will not see a preview of the printed color in those areas as your display simply cannot show them.

                                                                    The proofed (DISPLAY) color overlay tells me that Melissa RGB is OOG. That has nothing to do with the print or exported data unless it is exported as Melissa RGB. If I soft proof in say sRGB, and I have a wide gamut display, there should be NO OOG overlay (sRGB is smaller than my display gamut). That isn’t what is happening. Why and where is Melissa RGB pertinent when I’ve asked to see a profile that isn’t Melissa RGB?

                                                                     

                                                                    The data is after all in Melissa RGB so LR would have to in essence “convert” from Melissa RGB to the selected profile then use that profile and the display profile for a gamut overlay.

                                                                    That is exactly what LR does as I understand it. I

                                                                    Not as I understand it. If that were the case, toggling other color spaces in soft proof would update the OOG for the display. That does not happen. This is exactly what does happen in Photoshop FWIW. Setup a Customize Proof setup. Turn on the Gamut overlay. Change the profile in Customize Proof Setup. The OOG updates based on that new profile selection. The only difference is in that case, the OOG is current working space + customized proof setup profile. There is nothing here that takes the display gamut into account. That is a new idea in LRb4 that I think could be useful but only if the OOG + display take the currently selected profile into account. It doesn’t. It only takes Melissa RGB into account. Why? How is that useful?

                                                                     

                                                                    Look at the other OOG overlay for output (right side of histogram). It takes the editing space (Melissa RGB) and whatever profile you select to produce the overlay. As you alter the profile, the OOG updates as it should. So this is editing space + soft proof space. Great. Love it. Do the same for the display. Current soft proof space + display. If I am viewing a soft proof for my Epson 4900, show me the OOG colors in that output space that cannot be seen on the display.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                      We picked paper white as the default background for SP mode because that is the context under which most prints are actually made (i.e., there is a margin with paper white surround, or a light mat, etc.).  One of the reasons why users often find prints are darker than the screen preview is that their images on screen are always seen against a dark background, whereas their printed images are often viewed against a light background.  Editing your images and viewing them on screen against a light background helps tremendously.

                                                                       

                                                                      That said, the background can be customized (as explained earlier).

                                                                      • 33. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                        Jao vdL MVP

                                                                        If I soft proof in say sRGB, and I have a wide gamut display, there should be NO OOG overlay (sRGB is smaller than my display gamut). That isn’t what is happening. Why and where is Melissa RGB pertinent when I’ve asked to see a profile that isn’t Melissa RGB?

                                                                        Are you sure about that? my wide gamut display is much wider than sRGB on a 2D gamut plot but in 3D you can see that there are areas where sRGB penetrates outside of my monitor's gamut:

                                                                         

                                                                        monitor-vs-sRGB.jpg

                                                                        These are the typical colors (the bright yellow greens) where I see OOG display warnings in LR 4 even when soft proofing for sRGB.

                                                                        Not as I understand it. If that were the case, toggling other color spaces in soft proof would update the OOG for the display. That does not happen.

                                                                        You are right. It doesn't behave like I would expect it to. I think what is happening is that the blue warning shows you where the source data is OOG of the display profile and that Lightroom does not use the image after the final conversion but generates the display OOG mask from a conversion to the display profile directly from the melissaRGB source. I don't know why they would do this as it is extra work. It would be better to show you the result from source->soft proof profile->display profile cnversion as what you are interested in is whether the softproofed display is accurate not whether the source is out of display gamut. My guess is that this is either a bug or a design decision. There are some bugs with the soft proof anyway (compare an sRGB softproof to the same from a prophotoRGB tiff in Photoshop, you'll see they are not the same even though they should be!)

                                                                        • 34. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                          Rene-) Community Member

                                                                          Ah. Thanks. Totally missed that the "lights out" was actually the same BG color. Thanks

                                                                          • 35. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                            MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                            Thanks for the helpful discussion.  I will look into it.

                                                                            • 36. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                              thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                                              Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Are you sure about that? my wide gamut display is much wider than sRGB on a 2D gamut plot but in 3D you can see that there are areas where sRGB penetrates outside of my monitor's gamut:

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              It doesn’t matter when the facts as I believe them to be: the overlay is Melissa RGB. Can you confirm or deny this? If you toggle any profile in soft proof, does the Display OOG change? If it does not, as I see on my end, then what is the OOG based upon? I thought Eric said Melissa RGB.

                                                                              Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                              You are right. It doesn't behave like I would expect it to. I think what is happening is that the blue warning shows you where the source data is OOG of the display profile and that Lightroom does not use the image after the final conversion but generates the display OOG mask from a conversion to the display profile directly from the melissaRGB source. I don't know why they would do this as it is extra work. It would be better to show you the result from source->soft proof profile->display profile cnversion as what you are interested in is whether the softproofed display is accurate not whether the source is out of display gamut. My guess is that this is either a bug or a design decision.

                                                                              Again, unless the OOG is tied to a single profile (Melissa RGB), there should be some change as we toggle various color spaces in soft proof. I see zero difference. I think the fundamental design is that display OOG is always display profile + Melissa RGB. This is the area that makes no sense to me.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                                thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                                                Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                                There are some bugs with the soft proof anyway (compare an sRGB softproof to the same from a prophotoRGB tiff in Photoshop, you'll see they are not the same even though they should be!)

                                                                                Yup, in my last video, I exported an image to sRGB, re imported it into the library and the OOG for sRGB shows some overlay. Open the same document in Photoshop, setup the Customize Proof Setup to sRGB, ask to see OOG overlay, nothing shows. Photoshop behaves as expected. An sRGB document should not show OOG for sRGB!

                                                                                • 38. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                                  Jao vdL MVP

                                                                                  It doesn’t matter when the facts as I believe them to be: the overlay is Melissa RGB. Can you confirm or deny this? If you toggle any profile in soft proof, does the Display OOG change? If it does not, as I see on my end, then what is the OOG based upon? I thought Eric said Melissa RGB.

                                                                                  Yeah I noted that above but I think we are using slightly different terminology so you might have misunderstood what I meant. The blue overlay appears to show where the source data (which is in melissaRGB of course) is out of the display's gamut. In my opinion, it should show the areas where after conversion to the destination profile the color is still out of display gamut. This is a subtlety but I think an important one. There are cases where converting the image to the output profile will bring colors into display gamut and so you do get an accurate display of the softproofed image on your display even though Lightroom currently will show you a blue (or purple) OOG warning. This is especially true for soft proofing using perceptual rendering intent which tends to desaturate colors and has a higher probability of bringing the softproofed image within the gamut of your display and so no display OOG warning should be shown.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Soft Proofing
                                                                                    thedigitaldog ACP/MVPs

                                                                                    Jao vdL wrote:

                                                                                    The blue overlay appears to show where the source data (which is in melissaRGB of course) is out of the display's gamut. In my opinion, it should show the areas where after conversion to the destination profile the color is still out of display gamut.

                                                                                    Exactly! That is my opinion too.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Eric, is this behavior as designed or a bug?

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