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      • 80. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
        Lee Jay Community Member

        Rob Cole wrote:

         

        I have already prepared myself that the same will not be the case with PV2012, assuming no significant changes are made before final release...

         

        Reasons that's a stupid decision:

         

        - First, the obvious.  You have a big assumption in there, that's already known to be wrong.

        - Second, you've spent years and years getting used to and comfortable with PV2010 and PV2003.  You've spent only weeks messing with PV2012.  You can't expect to learn all the tricks that quickly.

        - Third, any tiny amount of experience you've obtained from the last weeks has been marred by a little bit of beta-itis.

        - Fourth, you haven't been trying very hard to following the workflow suggestions you've been given.  Once you do (if you do), you may find your conclusions were wrong.

        - Lastly, it's not necessary to duplicate the "look" of PV2010 if you can get an equivalently good or superior but different look in PV2012.

        • 81. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
          jrsforums Community Member

          Rob Cole wrote:

           

          Burn after reading:

          -----------------------

          When PV2010 first came out, I noticed a very small percentage of my photos looked better in PV2003 than PV2010 (having to do mostly with dark image tones being mistaken for color noise, but also sharpening artefacts - "the zipper effect" in PV2010). I decided to just move forward and forget about PV2003, since it usually wasn't a big enough deal (decreasing color NR and/or increasing color NR detail when bitten, or local desharpening, respectively). I have already prepared myself that the same will not be the case with PV2012, assuming no significant changes are made before final release - I will be keeping my eagle-eye out for the tell-tale signs of when PV2010 will produce superior results, and use it instead.

           

          I know this is really gonna ruffle some of y'all's feathers, and although that is not the intent, my loyalty is with the people reading this thread trying to get the real skinny, instead of a glass of Kool-Aid.

           

          So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

           

          R

           

          I suggest that these words would be better served....and received, at DPReview.

           

          We, here, are trying to better understand the new LR 4b and to provide feedback to the developers.

           

          I spent 16 years in sales and 20 in HQ marketing/development at a major computer firm.  I can tell you that I never met a developer who did not want to get the best product to market. Nor a marketing group that didn't want products that would drive their competition into submission. 

           

          There are lots of challenges to bring a product out and the lead times are a lot longer than most would expect.  There are many tradeoffs that must be made....for many reasons...and you make them or many times you would never get the product out....you would always be chasing..."just one more thing".  Testing is also a big deal and will effect what gets in or not.

           

          ALL of us can come up with something that we NEED to be added to LR....or something we wish we're done some other way. 

           

          Well....grow up and man up.  Negativity is not needed here...!!!

           

          BTW...you complain about how you are treated....and then respond as you did....shame....

          • 83. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
            areohbee Community Member

            To Adobe:

            ========

            A trend I've noticed - when contrast is high it can be much more difficult to find a balance between exposure highlights and shadows that suits the needs of all three regions (lows, mids, highs). And lower contrast makes the picture, well, not contrasty enough...

             

            To Users:

            =======

            Tip o' th' day:

            -----------------

            Adjusting whites in conjunction with exposure will afford much more toning latitude.

            When what you want is:

            - Intra-shadow contrast

            - midtone contrast

            - highlight contrast

            It can be very tricky indeed, since increasing one tends to decrease the other. One of the reasons Lr4 is such a big deal is it makes it easier (sometimes) to achieve a target contrast in each of the three zones.

            However, I sometimes find it easy to perfect the tone in any 2 of those zones, but not the 3rd.

            (oversimplified to make a point - it's not always that "neat")

             

            Here are some things that have helped me accomplish my goals sometimes:

             

            Increasing whites and decreasing exposure a little bit increases intra-highlight contrast with a relatively small impact on midtone or intra-shadow contrast.

             

            AND

             

            Increasing whites and decreasing exposure a lot increases intra-highlight contrast with a significant impact on midtone and/or intra-shadow contrast, which would otherwise be unachievable, and which you can take advantage of.

             

            PS - I'm not saying that maximum contrast in all 3 zones is always the goal, but it is the hardest to achieve.

             

            Rob

            • 84. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
              Jeff Schewe Community Member

              Well, at least you are making progess in learning how to use PV 2012....which is a good thing since that's the toolset LR4 is gonna have. Also note that in all thing little mention has been made of the local controls in PV 2012...I see a lot of people flailing around trying to fix EVERYTHING gloablly while a touch of correct local corrections eliminates the frustrating issues...also note that Tone Curves are there for a purpose–to be used–when and where appropriate (and not optimally the first line of tone control).

              • 85. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                areohbee Community Member

                Definitely being willing to tweak the tone curve and/or dab on some brush strokes (after the basics) gets me to my desired result way quicker sometimes - thanks for the reminder.

                 

                (when you are picky like me, the tone curve and/or locals are sometimes essential)

                 

                Jeff, I appreciate your civility. I try to tune people out when they are being a$$-holes - getting much better at it too .

                 

                Rob

                • 86. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                  Rob Cole wrote:

                   

                   

                  Jeff, I appreciate your civility. I try to tune people out when they are being a$$-holes - getting much better at it too .

                   

                  As long as you stay off the Adobe personnel, I don't have a problem...the guys that work really, really hard on Lightroom and Camera Raw deserve respect (they've earned it) and speculating about their skills or motives is way out of line. Stick to the controls and I have no problem...start talking about people and, well...I do what I do.

                   

                  PV 2012 is a major advancement which does indeed take some getting used to. And no, it's not "perfect" which is why we have curves and local adjustments.

                  • 87. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                    Susan S. Community Member

                    FWIW after another week or so of playing, I'm finding that if I have more or less correctly exposed photos taken in well controlled lighting conditions, than LR4 is quicker and gets better results than its predecessor.

                     

                    Unfortunately as I'm far from a perfect photographer (and I also use Lightroom to catalogue and process the family snaps, many of which are taken by a twelve and fifteen year old, although often with decent equipment so they are at least RAW files!) a lot of the images I run through lightroom are a long way from perfect and depending on the nature of the imperfection with a small proportion of the images, I'm personally finding it harder with to get where I want in LR4, for many of the reasons that Rob has outlined.  I don't see such comments as negativity. They are an honest appraisal of how I find LR4 to work for me.

                    • 88. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                      Jeff Schewe Community Member

                      Susan S. wrote:

                       

                      ...a lot of the images I run through lightroom are a long way from perfect and depending on the nature of the imperfection with a small proportion of the images, I'm personally finding it harder with to get where I want in LR4, for many of the reasons that Rob has outlined.

                       

                       

                      If you are still bringing your LR3 approach to images, yes...I suspect you are struggling. If however you first set Exposure AND Contrast first, then I would suggest spending more time exploring what Exposure & Contrast are **** before trying Highlights, Shadows and Whites & Blacks. The top two controls are critical to set...and failing to set Cotrast correctly makes all the lower controls more difficult to adjust.

                       

                      Seriously, Contrast seems to be a severely underused control...which in PV 2012 is a problem.

                      • 89. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                        areohbee Community Member

                        Hi Susan,

                         

                        Thank you .

                         

                        I agree that Lightroom 4 performs better when shooting conditions are more optimal.

                         

                        I also take and process plenty of pictures that were not shot perfectly, which are more of a challenge to "polish up" using any software.

                         

                        The tip I mentioned in my previous post has proven to be a big, big deal for me - hottest Lr4 tip yet, as far as I am concerned.

                         

                        i.e. different combinations of +whites and -exposure can allow one to critically influence the midtone and even shadow regions.

                         

                        It's the secret that is helping me out of many a jam using the basic controls - much less need for tone curve and locals using that technique.

                         

                        To Adobe - that fact may be some good input for tweaks that could be made, since it's really an overly tricky thing to be doing for most people.

                         

                        Rob

                        • 90. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                          areohbee Community Member

                          Susan is way hep on the contrast control (I know this from previous threads), and has thoroughly demonstrated not only the willingness but the aptitude to adapt to the new way.

                           

                          Although it's much easier to get good overall toning using the highlights and shadows sliders if the contrast is reduced, that's scant comfort to somebody who wants a contrasty image, with good overall toning.

                           

                          To say that hers and/or my problems is due to neglecting the exposure & contrast sliders, or just not setting them right, would just be wrong, to say the least.

                           

                          What's the name of that big river in Egypt?

                           

                          Rob

                          • 91. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                            Susan S. Community Member

                            Jeff - I am aware that I need to use the contrast more, but with anything other than images that are close to being Ok, I'm finding it hard to get my brain around the best way to adjust contrast  - mainly I think, because it affects the histogram symmetrically and with less wonderful images I often want to do opposite things to the shadow and highlight regions. But with the complex, image dependent interaction betwen the sliders, I don't find where to start with the top two sliders an intuitive or obvious process, sometimes.  I'm working on it... but I keep on finding I made (apparently) the wrong choice for exposure and contrast after moving all the other sliders, and then have to go back and use a highly iterative process of adjustment. It's not a huge  issue for me as generally I have small batches of images and no time pressure and eventually I get where I want to be, and the place I end up in is better than LR3 -  but for some images (mainly ones where I would have just done a fill light plus a bit of highlight recovery in LR3) it's a lot more faffing around.

                            • 92. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                              decoyle Community Member

                              Jeff Schewe wrote:

                               

                              Seriously, Contrast seems to be a severely underused control...which in PV 2012 is a problem.

                               

                              hey jeff,,,,well i'm trying it both ways...point curve v. contrast slider....it has it's +/-...

                                            don't know about quicker just yet....old dog syndrome here   definitly a "sweet" engine..

                                          

                               

                                  want ot Thank!! everyone on the lightroom team...let's ship !!

                               

                               

                              curve.png

                              contrast.png

                              • 93. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                Susan S. wrote:

                                 

                                But with the complex, image dependent interaction betwen the sliders, I don't find where to start with the top two sliders an intuitive or obvious process, sometimes.  I'm working on it... but I keep on finding I made (apparently) the wrong choice for exposure and contrast after moving all the other sliders, and then have to go back and use a highly iterative process of adjustment.

                                 

                                Yep...I know what you mean...it takes a while (I've been working with PV 2012 since Sept, 2011) and I still sometimes long for Brightness and Fill Light. But you can get over it and when you do then you'll see how much better you can nail your images. The biggest thing I see with people struggling with PV 2012 is the experience they have with PV 2010 or 2013. It's a killer...you think you know what you want to do but you revert to your PV 2010 knowledge and experience and that screws you up (it did for me).

                                 

                                I've also gotten to the point where the point curve editor has become more relevant...if I know I want to lighten or darken a certain tone, rather than trying to choose the correct basic control I just use the point curve with TAT to lighten or darken the specific area I want to adjust. Seriously, sometimes the Basic controls aren't enough...rather than fight that I adjust and adopt...TAT with the point curve editor is really easy. I suggest learning how to adopt both Basic and Point Curves...

                                • 94. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                  decoyle wrote:

                                   

                                  hey jeff,,,,well i'm trying it both ways...point curve v. contrast slider....it has it's +/-...

                                                don't know about quicker just yet....old dog syndrome here   definitly a "sweet" engine..

                                   

                                  Yep...some times the best way of adjusting the tone curve is, a curve...that's why it's an option. I would hate to live only with the Basic controls (PV 2010 or 2012)...and I'm pretty quick to spot what needs to be a global vs local correction. That is really important to recognize...some stuff just can't be done globally.

                                  • 95. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                    areohbee Community Member

                                    Sorry if I spoke too much for you Susan(?)

                                    • 96. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                      wdmn Community Member

                                      I have followed all these 'test' threads ...this one and the' double edge sword '

                                      The facts gleaned through user posts and employee posts were the greatest 'step up' for me.

                                      Although irritation has bubbled up there have been enough factual 'how to' that provided me with an understanding and the 'stumbling through' lessened.

                                      One simple thing was importing with a linear curve. What a difference that does make. I carried through my import settings into Lr4b ....and I have corrected my ways.

                                      If I hadn't been following this thread I'd still be at the stage of 'where to start?' to complete the question 'What does this image require?'

                                       

                                      My image content this past month has been strong winter light on snow and I have an aversion to blue shadows.

                                      The input in this thread certainly got me on the right track with exposure, contrast, highlight shadows and the white and black get very small adjustments.

                                      Fortunately the need for local brushes has lessened. Fortunate because my V4B version goes nuts when the brushes and graduated filters are used.

                                       

                                      Just thought I'd toss a keudo into the mix that I have benefited from these threads initiated by Rob Cole and attracted the attention of key players from the works dept. of the software.

                                       

                                      Rose

                                      • 97. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                        Susan S. Community Member

                                        That's fine Rob - I don't think you misrepresented me. Maybe overstated my competence (but that isn't going to upset me any!)

                                        • 98. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                          areohbee Community Member

                                          Hi Rose,

                                           

                                          So I guess you figured out that although the default tone curve for PV2010 was medium, it's linear in PV2012 (for similar contrast), so importing with medium usually gives too much contrast in PV12.

                                           

                                          In my opinion, the name of this game is being able to adjust the settings to create the result you want, even if you decide you hate it after you get it.

                                           

                                          Put another way, I want to be able to set my sights on a tone(/color) goal and be able to readily achieve it. Once I can do that, I'll be happy.

                                           

                                          I recently solved one of my biggest problems  - how to control shadows / lower midtones without goofing up upper midtone / highlight tone. Maybe its just me but I was often ending up with an upper shadow and/or midtone too bright that I could not debrighten without a subsequent ripple effect that I could not then correct...

                                           

                                          +whites & -exposure downshifts the shadows and midtones - spread the word...

                                          (coupled with -contrast, one then has more toning latitude with highlights, shadows, and blacks sliders)

                                           

                                          PS - I've recently been accused of not following instructions - it isn't true.

                                          I learned to stop following instructions in the cases where they weren't working for me - there's a difference.

                                           

                                          +whites & -exposure & -contrast in PV12 is akin to -brightness in PV10.

                                           

                                          Cheers,

                                          Rob

                                          • 99. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                            wdmn Community Member

                                            Regarding the import setting including the point curve...YES...I have changed the import setting to be the linear curve.

                                            My first images done in 4b required so much fiddling in the basic panel that I began to think real professional people were going to spit. It took me so long to get an image to where it should be. I thought the line in one of the posts about the tone curve causing a block and the user working against oneself described my situation intially to a T

                                             

                                            Perhaps I could follow your word descriptions because I have been dealing with very bright snow with shadows and I could get parts corrected then the expanse of snow would be dulled or dampened....but the +whites -exposure routine does work in the snow conditions. I couldn't believe it but I went back to images and redid using this technique and ...ta da...worked.

                                            I couldn't get a pure white background though....camera was set to obliterate everything and only have a lone fall leaf hanging and normally that would have had a white, maybe clipped, background but v4b found remnants of blue in the clouds...not a lot...just a haze. I'll have to go back and fiddle with that one again.

                                             

                                            Actually, I think these beta forums are much better than the regular product forums <grin>

                                             

                                            Rose

                                            • 100. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                              areohbee Community Member

                                              I can relate...

                                               

                                              wdmn wrote:

                                               

                                              ... the +whites -exposure routine does work in the snow conditions. I couldn't believe it but I went back to images and redid using this technique and ...ta da...worked.

                                               

                                              Yeah, the +whites -exposure stuff will really spread out those upper most tones revealing all the nuances of the snow, without a loss of contrast (in fact, just the opposite), and the auto-highlight recovery and fall-off really helps with the detail and protection from clipping - good stuff...

                                               

                                               

                                              wdmn wrote:

                                               

                                              I couldn't get a pure white background though....camera was set to obliterate everything and only have a lone fall leaf hanging and normally that would have had a white, maybe clipped, background but v4b found remnants of blue in the clouds...not a lot...just a haze. I'll have to go back and fiddle with that one again.

                                               

                                              And then there's the other side of the coin - PV12 really doesn't like for you to have pure white anything .

                                              Even the whites slider is working against the highlight recovery logic - whites slider is not exactly an auto-highlight recovery reverser.

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              wdmn wrote:

                                               

                                              Actually, I think these beta forums are much better than the regular product forums <grin>

                                               

                                              Rose

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              Cheers,

                                              Rob

                                              • 101. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                areohbee Community Member

                                                Susan S. wrote:

                                                 

                                                That's fine Rob - I don't think you misrepresented me. Maybe overstated my competence (but that isn't going to upset me any!)

                                                 

                                                R

                                                • 102. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                  decoyle Community Member

                                                  Rob Cole wrote:

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  And then there's the other side of the coin - PV12 really doesn't like for you to have pure white anything .

                                                  Even the whites slider is working against the highlight recovery logic - whites slider is not exactly an auto-highlight recovery reverser.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  hey rob,,,,  pv12 doesn't really have a like/dislike,,,,it just is!!! read it's mind

                                                   

                                                  whites.png

                                                  • 103. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                    drlke Community Member

                                                    I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                    • 104. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                      areohbee Community Member

                                                      Sweet snowy crystals weed.

                                                       

                                                      Right back at'ya with a fuzzy crystal weed.

                                                       

                                                      crystal-weed-histo.gif

                                                      Note: this is one of those that needed -whites & +exposure

                                                      Since the whites needed compression instead of expansion,

                                                      and the shadows / mids did not need to be pushed left for

                                                      the effect I was after which was very bright weed against a

                                                      very rich, dark, but not entirely black background.

                                                      Also note the shape of the left-most end is very hard to do

                                                      without a sharp bend at the left-most end of the tone curve

                                                      to counter the automatic shadow recovery, yet still have some

                                                      intra-shadow contrast, albeit subtle.

                                                       

                                                      Note: All 3 channels were present and accounted for at the top end of this photo. The upper highlights are still harsher than I'd like (see whites to highlight gradient in the stem as example) - the only way to have a softer highlight gradient is lower contrast way down, but then...

                                                       

                                                      This photo includes some locals to take the edge off the highlights in a few key regions, but I didn't go along the stem.

                                                       

                                                      PS - I used the RGB channel curves to correct a slight pink cast at the top end.

                                                      I use the RGB channel curves only occasionally, but I am very grateful they're there.

                                                       

                                                      Although it took me a really long time to get what I wanted, I was very pleased with the result, other than the over-harsh highlights, which I believe Eric will fix (same problem as Tony.S' dancer photos, I think).

                                                       

                                                      Cheers,

                                                      Rob

                                                      • 105. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                        areohbee Community Member

                                                        Snow business.

                                                         

                                                        PS - If white balance and/or split toning doesn't get rid of that cast, try the RGB channel curves, eh?

                                                        snoweeds-histo.gif

                                                         

                                                        Indeed, heavy on the +whites was the ticket :-)

                                                         

                                                        R

                                                        • 106. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                          Actually, +Whites does turn off the highlight recovery rolloff (entirely, if you go far enough). 

                                                           

                                                          What it doesn't counteract is the color recovery component.  We found in our testing that it was not photographically useful to have unpredictable color shifts due to highlight clipping & white balance.

                                                          • 107. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                            areohbee Community Member

                                                            Eric, thanks for the info.

                                                             

                                                            PS - No combinations of exposure / contrast that looked even half-way decent would have allowed me to accomplish my toning objectives for this photo (snow business), which were:

                                                             

                                                            - Eliminate all blacks, shadows, and midtones.

                                                            - Ram the whites up against the wall, and shape the highlights exactly the way I wanted.

                                                             

                                                            Save whites till last for fine tuning ya say? - Not me, but you can do whatever you want...

                                                             

                                                            Try to do as much as possible using exposure & contrast, followed by highlights then shadows if necessary? That works sometimes...

                                                             

                                                            Rob

                                                            • 108. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                              hamish niven Community Member

                                                              Rob,

                                                               

                                                              I see you are siting and example where you can't get the results you want from LR4, but If you want an image that high key Rob, shoot it +2/3 to 1 2/3  stops over exposed. By pushing to those extremes, you're introducing noise, breakdown of detail and a great loss of qualityby that much photo manipluation.


                                                              Rob Cole wrote:

                                                               

                                                              PS - No combinations of exposure / contrast that looked even half-way decent would have allowed me to accomplish my toning objectives for this photo (snow business)....

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              I'm sure you know that allowing your camera to expose "correctly" when shooting snow, gives you grey under exposed looking images, as the camera traditionally prefers 18% grey as a marker for a correct exposure. So, again, as you know,  to get your snow white, you need to over expose by between 1/2 and 1 1/2 a stop. Shoot with this in mind, and you'll need far less extreme processing, less blowing your whites, blacks and shadow detail up to those numbers you've indicated

                                                              • +Shadows to 100
                                                              • and your white to  +75
                                                              • and your blacks to +100

                                                               

                                                              in LR3.x I'd never push my fill above 19, unless the image was already over exposed when shot, and then maybe into the mid 20's if it was for a web sized image.

                                                              I've not exhaustively challenged LR4, but I'm still very reticent to take the shadows much over 40 due to excessive noise introduced into the image.

                                                               

                                                              LR4's new system is a great improvement from LR3 - IMHO, even if the starting point of all the autos makes for flat and drab images, but I'm getting more and more pleased with what I'm achieving with the

                                                              new ways of making my photos, but, you've always got to start with an image in the ballpark of where you want it to be, otherise processing noise will appear, or you hit the ±100 hard limits that LR imposes

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              I may be breaking your question, but a photographers aim for a perfect image has to include to minimise noise from pver processing, and the best way to do that is to ensure the acquisition of the raw photo is as close to that final result as possible.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              But that is my feeling on photography

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              hamish NIVEN Photography

                                                              • 109. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                areohbee Community Member

                                                                Hi Hamish,

                                                                 

                                                                I took that picture while on vacation with some people who get very annoyed when I get all camera-buff on 'em.

                                                                 

                                                                Anyway, it was taken @0EV (exposure bias) and as you say could have easily been 2/3EV+. Also, I normally shoot with Active D-Lighting ON, which tries to help by lowering exposure even further - if thinking on my toes, I'd turn it OFF when shooting snow pics.

                                                                 

                                                                (also, that picture was taken shortly after sunrise, and I'm not a morning person . also, it was taken in the Eastern Sierra Madres (Mountains in California) in January (near zero temperature...) - keeping my hands warm while fiddling with the camera was a huge issue...  I have some more excuses too if you want... (PM me).

                                                                 

                                                                hamish niven wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                I see you are siting an example where you can't get the results you want from LR4...

                                                                 

                                                                Not at all!!! - I'm totally stoked about how that picture turned out! - Way better than what I was able to do in Lr3!! The fact that the image integrity held together so well despite the extreme processing is a testament to Lr4 improvments! Far more control over the nuances of highlight tone in Lr4 (via basic controls) than Lr3. And I think the auto highlight recovery also helped in this case (I'm not sure at the moment - maybe whites were jacked up so high there wasn't much auto-highlight recovery left (Eric would know) and maybe that's why they weren't flat, hmmm...). Please do not read anything in. My purpose in posting it was to point out that it benefited from the +white -exposure treatment, AND that this doesn't work for that photo:

                                                                 

                                                                - Adjust exposure so it's nicely exposed (or exposed for the midtones...).

                                                                - If necessary, adjust contrast so overall contrast is nice.

                                                                - If necessary, adjust highlights to taste.

                                                                - If necessary, adjust shadows to taste.

                                                                - Usually not necessary, but fine tune whites if warranted...

                                                                - Ditto for blacks.

                                                                 

                                                                Summary:

                                                                ------------

                                                                Despite being underexposed to begin with, the final settings (which I am very, very pleased with) had reduced exposure. I would have never been able to come up with optimal settings for this photo by "following the rules".

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks - I realize asking Lightroom to make up for my shooting deficiencies is asking a lot .

                                                                 

                                                                PS - I understand why the controls stop where they do (at 100) - after that the image falls apart - no problem - could have pushed a little further using the tone curve (or an enhanced camera profile).. 100 was enough for this photo.

                                                                 

                                                                Yep, there have been a few "sub-plots" since this thread started....

                                                                 

                                                                2nd to Last thing - I arrived at the settings for this image very quickly - I knew what I wanted, I knew the secret, and I had the results optimized within a few minutes (no need to balance midtone and shadow considerations made this a very easy photo to work on - could hardly go wrong...).

                                                                 

                                                                Last thing:

                                                                hamish niven wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                I may be breaking your question...

                                                                There is no question - if you up exposure and down whites the highlights will be more compressed - it's a statement.

                                                                 

                                                                Rob

                                                                • 110. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                  hamish niven Community Member

                                                                  grand stuff Rob


                                                                  As I said I've not pushed LR4 to extremes, but that is good to know that its holding quality with that much processing.

                                                                   

                                                                  As for "following the rules" - that is a reason I left Englnd to come to South Africa, less rules, so I'm with you there.


                                                                  I aim to make a photo look nice, real nice verging on the flipping awesome, if that means having a tone curve that would frighten Lee Jay, or as you've implemented, apparent crazy high settings and the results look good, you like it, friends and if professional, clients like it, then you've achieved, go pat yourself on the back and pour that whisky at end of day.

                                                                   

                                                                  Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  There is no question - if you up exposure and down whites the highlights will be more compressed - it's a statement.

                                                                   

                                                                  Rob

                                                                   

                                                                  Mainstream commercial photography is ultimately an art, making things look good or better than they are, (like that amazing new product called fotoshop from adobé) start with a close approximation and manipulate, and LR is doing to do that much better.


                                                                  For me, the technical details made by the brains incredible department make the software do 'kin amazing things, I dont need to know how knees and black curves and depressed highlights compacted with reverse engineered whimwhoms work. I don't care if my tone curves look less like a hysteresis curve and more like the curves of the back of the Lochness Monster, but as long as my edits work and the result is super.

                                                                   

                                                                  Initially it did not matter if at 1st I did not get the results from slider 4 and 3 combined, I could fall back and try 5 and 3 with a little vibrance or tweak a curve, so many iterations and combinations of curves, sliders and numbers all interact with each other to wriggle that histogram and make it dance.


                                                                  After some 600 images being run through LR4 Beta, its already not taking long to look at a pic and know,  - as you said with the snow photo, what I want to achieve from my image, and the processing is rapidly becoming intuitive, like playing the piano with new keys and different harmonics, its just a learning curve, and one that is a little like a giraffes neck -  steep, but not spotty.

                                                                   


                                                                   

                                                                  As for annoying non camera buff people, I'm sure they have annoying non photographer habits.

                                                                   

                                                                  I still get - "You take a long time to take a photo"

                                                                  followed by

                                                                  "Those are very good photos"

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  go figure


                                                                   

                                                                  Message was edited by: hamish niven - typos

                                                                  • 111. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                    areohbee Community Member

                                                                    hamish niven wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    grand stuff Rob


                                                                    As I said I've not pushed LR4 to extremes, but that is good to know that its holding quality with that much processing.

                                                                     

                                                                    As for "following the rules" - that is a reason I left Englnd to come to South Africa, less rules, so I'm with you there.


                                                                    I aim to make a photo look nice, real nice verging on the flipping awesome, if that means having a tone curve that would frighten Lee Jay, or as you've implemented, apparent crazy high settings and the results look good, you like it, friends and if professional, clients like it, then you've achieved, go pat yourself on the back and pour that whisky at end of day.

                                                                     

                                                                    Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    There is no question - if you up exposure and down whites the highlights will be more compressed - it's a statement.

                                                                     

                                                                    Rob

                                                                     

                                                                    Mainstream commercial photography is ultimately an art, making things look good or better than they are, (like that amazing new product called fotoshop from adobé) start with a close approximation and manipulate, and LR is doing to do that much better.


                                                                    For me, the technical details made by the brains incredible department make the software do 'kin amazing things, I dont need to know how knees and black curves and depressed highlights compacted with reverse engineered whimwhoms work. I don't care if my tone curves look less like a hysteresis curve and more like the curves of the back of the Lochness Monster, but as long as my edits work and the result is super.

                                                                     

                                                                    Initially it did not matter if at 1st I did not get the results from slider 4 and 3 combined, I could fall back and try 5 and 3 with a little vibrance or tweak a curve, so many iterations and combinations of curves, sliders and numbers all interact with each other to wriggle that histogram and make it dance.


                                                                    After some 600 images being run through LR4 Beta, its already not taking long to look at a pic and know,  - as you said with the snow photo, what I want to achieve from my image, and the processing is rapidly becoming intuitive, like playing the piano with new keys and different harmonics, its just a learning curve, and one that is a little like a giraffes neck -  steep, but not spotty.

                                                                     


                                                                     

                                                                    As for annoying non camera buff people, I'm sure they have annoying non photographer habits.

                                                                     

                                                                    I still get - "You take a long time to take a photo"

                                                                    followed by

                                                                    "Those are very good photos"

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    go figure


                                                                     

                                                                    Message was edited by: hamish niven - typos

                                                                    Well said .

                                                                    R

                                                                    • 112. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                      hamish niven Community Member

                                                                      Well said .

                                                                      R

                                                                      thanks man!

                                                                      • 113. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                        Geoff the kiwi CommunityMVP

                                                                        "Learn the rukes so you know how to break them properly."

                                                                        • 114. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                          decoyle Community Member

                                                                          hamish niven wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          grand stuff Rob


                                                                          As I said I've not pushed LR4 to extremes, but that is good to know that its holding quality with that much processing.

                                                                           


                                                                          hi hamish.... top of the world here....

                                                                                             

                                                                          original capture is on left ( nice list or iterations to select from)....softproof on right...

                                                                          sunset @ -34F,,,,  lightroom = heatroom here !!

                                                                          lr4b.png

                                                                          • 115. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                            areohbee Community Member

                                                                            Love the chiaroscuro drama! (you're from the north pole you say?).

                                                                            • 116. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                              hamish niven Community Member

                                                                              did Geoff (apologies for misspelling your name) years ago, and new ones every day

                                                                              • 117. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                areohbee Community Member

                                                                                How to maximize Love for Lightroom 4(b1), by Rob Cole

                                                                                 

                                                                                1. Adjust whites along with exposure.

                                                                                     a. optimal ratio depends not only on how well highlights will like being spread out, but also midtone and shadow considerations (+whites -exposure expands highlights and left-shifts mids and lows...).

                                                                                     b. set total "exposure" with that pair (initially) with the following adjustment of highlights in mind.

                                                                                        ii. If you can see you're going to need to jack the highlights down, then factor in an estimated boost of total "exposure".

                                                                                2. Set contrast lower than you think you'll want.

                                                                                    a. highlights/shadows and the rest are easier to set when contrast is not too high, and will also affect contrast.

                                                                                    b. finely tuned contrast is best done using tone curve anyway.

                                                                                3. Adjust highlights / shadows & blacks...

                                                                                5. Finish contrast adjustment using the tone curve.

                                                                                    a. my tone curve adjustments are often more targeted at the bottom end, since Lr4 has more latitude in adjusting highlights via the basics, and the "help" afforded by auto-shadow recovery ranges from perfect to not-so-much.

                                                                                    b. fine tune contrast to compensate for inability to perfect "type 1" toning issues (ref: previous page) using basics.

                                                                                6. Add a touch of clarity maybe.

                                                                                7. Final touches using locals.

                                                                                    a. negative clarity for all the places where new clarity overbrightens or just doesn't look nice.

                                                                                    b. increase contrast, etc... on edges to simulate the effects of old clarity, in the cases where the excessive edge darkening halo thing was actually a plus.

                                                                                    c. intricate toning adjustments to brighten / de-brighten places where the local adaptive behavior has not been ideal (type 2 toning issues, ref: previous page).

                                                                                    d. if you pushed a little hard with the +whites -exposure thing, spot reduce overboard highlights.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I'm still working on just how to integrate bottom end basics into all this - story still unfolding...

                                                                                 

                                                                                legend: you meaning me, and anybody else who may benefit...

                                                                                 

                                                                                Of course, my rules are made for breaking (or ignoring)...

                                                                                 

                                                                                Rob

                                                                                • 118. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                                                  Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I'm still working on just how to integrate bottom end basics into all this - story still unfolding...

                                                                                   

                                                                                  So, I guess this pretty much means that the title of this thread is old hat?

                                                                                  (As in, superseded by your more recent LR 4 experiences–LR4 really can be a good thing, right)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Let us know if you want some help fathoming the lower side of the tones...at this point, I suggest the term "symmetrical" as being somewhat meaningful.

                                                                                  • 119. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                    areohbee Community Member

                                                                                    Well, whites are similar to blacks, and highlights are similar to shadows (and contrast seems pretty symmetrical), BUT there is no equivalent to exposure on the dark side, which is why I normally use a tone curve to primp the left tones.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    R