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      • 120. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
        Jeff Schewe Community Member

        Highlights and Shadows were brought much more closely aligned in the public beta (vs earlier versions).

         

        Yes, you must deal with a reduction of overall levels when tweaking shadows, but there is a symmetry there if you recognize it...don't punt automatically and resort to curves (if you can avoid it).

        • 121. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
          areohbee Community Member

          Jeff Schewe wrote:

           

          Yes, you must deal with a reduction of overall levels when tweaking shadows, but there is a symmetry there if you recognize it...don't punt automatically and resort to curves (if you can avoid it).

           

          I'll have to think about that - not sure what you mean just yet...

           

          PS - I sing Lr4's virtues too...

          • 122. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
            Jeff Schewe Community Member

            Rob Cole wrote:

             

            I'll have to think about that - not sure what you mean just yet...

             

            Shadows in PV 2012 is also a wonderful thing...I suggest looking at the Basic controls beofre kneejerk reacting to Curves...(although Curves are a useful thing).

            • 123. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
              areohbee Community Member

              So you're talking about shadows being the flip side of highlights? (symmetry-wise). - I've had that concept now for a long time... (I was referring to it in post above).

              • 124. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                decoyle Community Member

                Jeff Schewe wrote:

                 

                 

                Shadows in PV 2012 is also a wonderful thing...I suggest looking at the Basic controls beofre kneejerk reacting to Curves...(although Curves are a useful thing).

                hi jeff.....   mea culpa !! on being  a jerk with curves....so,,,are you saying that the nature of 'adaptivity' varies the shape of the contrast curve on an individual picture basis? and that by tweaking too early on the linear point curve one screws up the set points of the overall sliders? i've been using the sliders,, albeit in a diffrent sequence,,,they have a certain subtleness and usefulness for sure...just a bit confused on what is going on,,,?what's a function of what?....but i guess that's the genius of lr4 !!

                • 125. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                  Eric has indicated that the image adaptive adjustments in the Basic panel are upstream from curves processing in the pipeline. So, you won't get the benefit of the image adaptive adjustments if you don't set the Basic panel settings and use curves instead. I would suggest to optimize the tone settings in Basic and THEN tweak as needed in curves. I've also found less need for parametric curves in LR4 but still use the point curve editer at times to tease out highlight detail or clamp down on the blacks of a low contrast image (after adjusting the Basics).

                  • 126. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                    areohbee Community Member

                    Tip o' th' day:

                     

                    Intro/review:

                    ---------------

                    Lr3 - often photos end up less bright than optimal because:

                    - adverse effects of fill light kick in when pushed too hard.

                    - increased exposure often meant destroying the highlights.

                    - brightening often washed out the photo.

                    Very common for me to finish with some clarity to enhance the midtone contrast lost by brightening.

                     

                    Lr4(b1) - one can fill and brighten photos without washing them out, or losing midtone contrast, or destroying the highlights, or otherwise sacrificing image quality.

                    - For the majority of normal photos I set clarity to zero. It's just not needed and if a photo is already crystal clear, just makes it look worse.

                    (new clarity awesome for some photos too...)

                    One of my challenges however is overbright midtones in the bokeh (maybe mixed with some overdark midtones...).

                     

                    Previously I mostly used a combination of exposure and/or contrast and/or highlights and/or shadows... to adjust (applied locally).

                     

                    (reminder: new clarity brightens more than it darkens)

                     

                    So the tip is:

                    ==========

                    - negative clarity can be a very simple way to debrighten and/or smooth out the midtones in the bokeh, instead of (or along with) the other basic tone adjustments (not just midtones either - works in the shadows too, and highlights. and not just bokeh necessarily...).

                     

                    In my opinion, this is a really really hot tip - it can be applied rather sloppily (er, I meant quickly) and still get the job done, and is a great way to counter what are sometimes unwanted effects from Lr4 processing.This is helping me a lot to like my final results better and get to them quicker.

                     

                    Happy valentine's day all .

                     

                    Long love Lightroom 4!

                     

                    Rob

                    • 127. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                      areohbee Community Member

                      Eric,

                       

                      MadManChan2000 wrote:

                       

                      ...entirely, if you go far enough.

                       

                      I'd love to know more about that.

                       

                       

                       

                      MadManChan2000 wrote:

                       

                      What it doesn't counteract is the color recovery component.  We found in our testing that it was not photographically useful to have unpredictable color shifts due to highlight clipping & white balance.

                       

                      A good thing, no doubt.

                       

                       

                       

                      Whites is an awesome feature, and I've definitely been having big fun playing with high-key highlights and clipping, and also +whites -exposure for low-key but more separated highlights (also -whites +exposure for highlight compression). Way more flexibility than just an on/off switch for auto-highlight recovery (although that would have been nice too for some photos...).

                       

                       

                       

                      Thanks - Lr4b is awesome, despite my personal challenges with it...

                       

                      Rob

                      • 128. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                        hamish niven Community Member

                        @Decoyle

                         

                        I'd call that pushing it to extremes. What a blast that looks like.

                         

                        Off topic - I was watching David Attenborough's BBC production Frozen  Planet last night, what a place to visit and shoot, enjoy and post a link to a gallery or website so we can see more of that part of the world.

                        • 129. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                          decoyle Community Member

                          Jeff Schewe wrote:

                           

                          I've also found less need for parametric curves in LR4 but still use the point curve editer at times to tease out highlight detail or clamp down on the blacks of a low contrast image (after adjusting the Basics).

                          hi jeff,,,, while your on the subject of the parametric/point curves,,,,?why is it that the parametric curve updates it shape ( which i like ) with an adjustment from the point curve,,,,but the reverse not,,,an adjustment to the parametric is not reflected in the point curve?... i realize that it's a point curve ,,but they're easy enough to get....where's the trap? 

                           

                          tnx den

                          • 130. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                            wdmn Community Member

                            Re: the tip for negative clarity

                             

                            I tried  negative clarity after reading your post.

                            In a global adjustment (using a graduated filter) the negative clarity immediately produces a blur effect. This was a setting in the range of -10

                             

                            Since you included the words 'sloppily applied..i.e quickly' I now interprete that its a local brush application of a negative clarity.

                            Since a blur has been attained in the  past and to date using -clarity and -sharpness combo is it that the -sharpness can be eliminated and get a similar blur effect?

                             

                            I have watched the result of applying a global + clarity up to amount 10 cause the histogram to spread and the dark blue black clipping appear. I have used +clarity, +contrast,+sharpening amounts with a local brush flow in the range of +25 to+35 and a feather and then I will see a lightness at the higher flow strength

                             

                            In your post further back with the review and 'final touch using locales' there is the suggestion to use -clarity to offset the brightness created by clarity- I assume you are not getting a blur in this situation.

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            Rose

                            (Shadows album with Lightroom v4 beta images Jan-Feb 2012)  http://rwalbum.gogaxdns.com/Albums/Shadows/index.html

                            • 131. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                              areohbee Community Member

                              Hi Rose,

                               

                              Sorry I wasn't more clear (pun not originally intended) - yes: definitely for brushing only - not gradients.

                               

                              wdmn wrote:

                               

                              Since a blur has been attained in the  past and to date using -clarity and -sharpness combo is it that the -sharpness can be eliminated and get a similar blur effect?

                               

                              The effect of -sharpness hasn't changed (that I can tell so far) - it's lightroom's blur tool (making a distinction here between true blur and blur-like declarification).

                               

                              To review (my apology if you already know all this):

                              ---------------------------------------------------------------

                              +clarity makes dark tones darker and light tones lighter, and new clarity is bias more toward lightening, compared to old clarity.

                              -clarity does the opposite of +clarity.

                               

                              +sharpness works kinda like clarity too except only on fine detail / edges.

                              -sharpness is not at all like the opposite of +sharpness.

                              -1 to -50 just masks global sharpener, and -51 to -100 is a true blur - it's a "double use" of the sharpening slider, one could even say "triple" depending on how one counts.

                              ----------------------------------------------------------------

                               

                              Anyway, I've mostly been using -clarity solo (or sometimes in conjunction with the others) for spot reducing overbrightness in the bokeh, which is already "blurred", but I have also used it a few times to smooth tonal gradients in subject matter. In the latter case you definitely need to be more careful to stay away from edges lest they become "declarified" too.

                               

                               

                              wdmn wrote:

                               

                              In your post further back with the review and 'final touch using locales' there is the suggestion to use -clarity to offset the brightness created by clarity- I assume you are not getting a blur in this situation.

                              Local -clarity is added to global +clarity for net clarity effect. Thus if you have global at +10 and local at -10 (full flow and density) there will be 0 net clarity applied (no de-clarification).

                               

                              However, if you have 0 global clarity and negative local clarity, then Lightroom will try to declarify, whatever that means - I'm not sure exactly, but if you are willing to bear with me... -

                               

                              Clarity can be thought of as having 2 components:

                              1. "low-radius" detail component (more akin to sharpening).

                              2. "high-radius" big-area component (more akin to global contrast, but in a local adaptive / smart way...).

                               

                              The "type-1" declarification is indeed akin to a "blur".

                              The "type-2" declarification is what I have been taking advantage of for debrightening the bokeh.

                              I have also "evened-out" tonal distribution in some subject surface areas using -clarity, in which case ya get the whole monty (both types). If you want to "re-clarify" the details, +sharpen and/or -nr.

                               

                              The reason type-2 -clarity is so effective for debrightening is that it won't disturb tonal areas where there isn't much tonal diversity in the first place, but when applied to bright areas it pretty much understands you want them less bright (whether in a shadow a mid or a high), and if they're next to dark areas, it will lighten them just a smidge. Since the goal is generally to remove distracting over-brightness and strong tonal variation in the background - it's effect can be almost exactly what the doctor ordered. (but not everybody likes the same doctors ;-}

                               

                              To compare, if debrightening using:

                              - negative exposure - it debrightens everything, so you have to be really careful.

                              - negative highlights - has no effect, unless it's a highlight, and then it affects them all the same (-clarity doesn't).

                              - negative shadows - has no effect, unless it's a shadow, and them affects them all the same (-clarity doesn't).

                              - negative contrast - this was what I used to use primarily for debrightening lights and lightening shadows, but it has no effect on midtones, and lacks the smarts of -clarity which can target just the right thing.

                               

                              Clear as mud (pun intended)?

                               

                              Rob

                              • 132. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                wdmn Community Member

                                Well, the mud is being diluted and requires a filtration system at the moment <grin>

                                SO.....

                                I can see why the previously used -100 clarity and -85 sharpness even when used with a low level flow is MUCH stronger. I had got so accustomed to that procedure (brush or gradient) previously.

                                It wasn't that I figured out that there was something radically different about clarity and its combinations I just did a 'knee-jerk' response and lowered the amounts in my favourite local brush. If your translation ends up being true then there will be some resaves of favourite brush presets.

                                 

                                Who has time to investigate the book module, video etc?....I have those modules turned off because there is enough to absorb rewiring the brain for the develop changes.

                                 

                                Have you noticed that if you go back and change an initial setting that it is VERY slow to refresh. Its also slow to display if testing out a setting and in that case the slider is continued to be moved because I think nothing has happened. I have resorted to typing in individual numbers rather than sliding. This also works because the slider will jump with  increments of 5 rather individual so an adjustment will go from 5 to 10 in one leap and all I wanted was perhaps 7.

                                 

                                I've been thinking that those testing could upload images displaying their results whether to their own galleries or to the available Flickr or whatever. For me, it would be enlightening to see the results of develop settings used by others. Of course, doing the upload routine is another time consuming event but it would still be worthwhile <grin>

                                 

                                Rose

                                • 133. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                  areohbee Community Member

                                  wdmn wrote:

                                   

                                  Well, the mud is being diluted and requires a filtration system at the moment <grin>

                                   

                                  Its a lot of left-brained stuff for most right-brained photographers to fathom. Not sayin' you're either, just sayin'...

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  wdmn wrote:

                                   

                                  I can see why the previously used -100 clarity and -85 sharpness even when used with a low level flow is MUCH stronger. I had got so accustomed to that procedure (brush or gradient) previously.

                                  It wasn't that I figured out that there was something radically different about clarity and its combinations I just did a 'knee-jerk' response and lowered the amounts in my favourite local brush. If your translation ends up being true then there will be some resaves of favourite brush presets.

                                   

                                  Yes, many presets will need to be redone (both brush presets and reglar).

                                   

                                   

                                  Another gotcha to watch out for - locals that included brightness will not translate exactly - this was also responsible for a few wrong conclusions in the early days (and still is sometimes).

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  wdmn wrote:

                                   

                                  Who has time to investigate the book module, video etc?....I have those modules turned off because there is enough to absorb rewiring the brain for the develop changes.

                                   

                                  Lightroom has a book module? (just joking)

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  wdmn wrote:

                                   

                                  Have you noticed that if you go back and change an initial setting that it is VERY slow to refresh. Its also slow to display if testing out a setting and in that case the slider is continued to be moved because I think nothing has happened.

                                   

                                  I have noticed some stuff like this occasionally, although I've not scrutinized it. - thanks.

                                   

                                   

                                  Rob

                                  • 134. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                    areohbee Community Member

                                    Update: I've used Lr4b1 for another 2 weeks now (since start of this thread), and although I can get the results I want faster in more cases, my opinion of Lr4b1 hasn't changed, it is:

                                     

                                    Ignoring issues of shadow recovery, highlight recovery, local adaptive toning, design / limited control, clarity, fine tuning with tone curve & locals, and cases I assume will be fixed by Eric prior to release... - in other words, regarding use of basic controls as implemented in beta #1:

                                     

                                    If toning desires for the photo fit into the:

                                    "

                                    - Adjust exposure for midtone.

                                    - If over contrasty reduce contrast, if under contrasty increase contrast.

                                    - adjust highlights & shadows to taste.

                                    - optional: small adjustment of whites and/or blacks.

                                    "

                                    paradigm, then photo can usually be toned with few iterations and great results (after some practice...).

                                     

                                    However, if photo will require substantial adjustments to whites and/or blacks for optimal toning (many of mine do. other people's?: depends on the person...), or if it's just one of those photos..., then it may be very tricky, demand several iterations, and results may still be inferior to what would be easily doable via PV2010.

                                     

                                    Recommendation: Don't listen to me (make up your own mind, and wait for final release to decide).

                                     

                                    Will I be upgrading? - of course I will. Only way to take advantage of the fabulous improvements in PV2012 is to buy Lr4!

                                     

                                    Will I still use PV2010 sometimes? - I hope not, but we'll see...

                                     

                                    R

                                    • 135. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                      areohbee Community Member

                                      Tip o' th' day:

                                      ==========

                                       

                                      Intro:

                                      ------

                                      Lr4b1's handling likes to maintain upper most tones as much as possible to preserve intra-highlight contrast and detail.

                                       

                                      Probably more often than not, that's a good thing - one of the reason's Lr4b1's highlights can be so bright and still have detailing and color. But recent discovery indicates it can be problematic in the case when one channel extends very far rightward.

                                       

                                      For example, if you take a picture of a white flower in sunlight, it could be that the blue channel extends way past the others to the right.

                                      Or a picture of foliage in bright light could have the green channel extending way far rightward. Ditto for red.

                                       

                                      This can make it hard to control the tone of the uppermost highlights.

                                       

                                      So, the tip is:

                                      ----------------

                                      Use the RGB curve to tone down the offending channel and the highlights will be much better behaved. (e.g. a downward bend at the very right end...).

                                       

                                      Rob

                                      • 136. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                        areohbee Community Member

                                        Rob Cole wrote:

                                         

                                        ...the reason is obvious...

                                         

                                        OK, maybe the reason(s) are not so obvious.

                                         

                                        This post to (hopefully) shed more light on the nuances and interdependencies of basic tone controls.

                                         

                                        Intro:

                                        ------

                                        One of the things that makes editing photos in Lr4b1 so tricky is the interplay between contrast, and highlights/shadows adjustments.

                                         

                                        For optimal toning, they must be balanced perfectly, along with exposure (ignoring whites/blacks for the time being).

                                         

                                        What is the difference between +contrast and -shadows / +highlights?

                                         

                                        exhibit A: Contrast pulls tones harder away from the midline (and pushes them into the lower and upper tones in a sophisticated fashion...).

                                         

                                        i.e. it's goal is separation of darks from lights whilst simultaneously minimizing compression of darks and lights (Lr4 contrast is magic).

                                        A side-effect is also an increase in saturation.

                                         

                                        A very enlightening exercise:

                                        Part 1:

                                        - try to make a picture with contrast=50 (all other settings zeroed) look the same as one with contrast=0, using all (and only) the other basic controls (hint: include saturation boost).

                                        After closest match compare histograms. (I recommend choosing a photo with a full complement of tones from dark to light).

                                        Part 2:

                                        - see what you have to do using the tone curve aferward to make the histograms match more closely.

                                        (I did not do part 2 of this exercise, since after part 1 the jury was pretty-much in)

                                         

                                        eh? (hint: see exhibit A above).

                                         

                                        Ramifications:

                                        -----------------

                                        Upper end toning is highly influenced by both contrast and highlights slider (in addition to exposure and whites... of course).

                                        Lower end toning is highly influenced by both contrast and shadows slider (in addition to blacks (and exposure)... of course).

                                         

                                        Practical implications:

                                        --------------------------

                                        - If you find yourself progressively increasing highlights and/or decreasing shadows, it could be a sign that what you really need to do is increase contrast instead.

                                          And the converse: If you find yourself progressively decreasing highlights and/or increasing shadows, it could be a sign that what you really need to do is decrease contrast instead.

                                         

                                        Bonus note:

                                        --------------

                                        - If you find yourself progressively increasing highlights and shadows, it could be a sign you need to increase exposure instead.

                                          And the converse: If you find yourself progressively decreasing highlights and shadows, it could be a sign you need to decrease exposure instead.

                                         

                                        Additional conclusions:

                                        ----------------------------

                                        - Because contrast is "midline-centric", and because highlights and shadows are also "midline-based", and because contrast includes some Lr4 magic, it follows why carefully adjusting contrast along with highlights and shadows is essential for optimal toning before heading for the tone curve.

                                         

                                        Legend: "you" meaning "me", but if the shoe fits...

                                         

                                        R

                                        • 137. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                          Lee Jay Community Member

                                          Rob Cole wrote:

                                          Bonus note:

                                          --------------

                                          - If you find yourself progressively increasing highlights and shadows, it could be a sign you need to increase exposure instead.

                                            And the converse: If you find yourself progressively decreasing highlights and shadows, it could be a sign you need to decrease exposure instead.

                                           

                                           

                                          Mine - if you find highlights and shadows have different absolute values, you might need to split the difference and adjust exposure to compensate.  For example, if you have +50 shadows and -10 highlights, you might set them to +30 and -30 and then adjust exposure positive and see if you like the result better.

                                          • 138. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                            areohbee Community Member

                                            Excellent tip - thanks Lee Jay .

                                             

                                            PS - although editing with PV2012 can be tricky, it's also a lot of fun - many more subtle toning variations are possible than with PV2010.

                                             

                                            Sometimes just a few relatively small adjustments are made and the photo just dials right in, and it's like wow - that was it.!

                                            • 139. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                              Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                              Rob Cole wrote:

                                               

                                              Sometimes just a few relatively small adjustments are made and the photo just dials right in, and it's like wow - that was it.!

                                               

                                               

                                              Yep...and not for nothing, this happens in PV 2012 a lot more than previous versions IMHO. I still hink paople are bring the previous toolset experience and fumbling when it comes to PV 2012. There are still times I long for Brightness...then remember it's gone and readjust my mindset.

                                              • 140. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                areohbee Community Member

                                                More notes about midtone contrast:

                                                 

                                                contrast slider is a primary determiner of midtone contrast.

                                                (although +contrast also makes highlights brighter and shadows darker, that effect can be attenuated by -highlights and/or +shadows)

                                                 

                                                Thus,

                                                 

                                                one can have maximal midtone contrast without overbright highlights or overdark shadows by:

                                                +contrast +shadows -highlights

                                                 

                                                Or,

                                                 

                                                one can have minimal midtone contrast but still have bright highlights and dark shadows by:

                                                -contrast -shadows +highlights

                                                 

                                                Bonus tip:

                                                ------------

                                                Use +whites -exposure when you want expanded highlights and there is "room" in the histogram for them at the top end, or shifting the mids and shadows left to "make room" is a plus for the picture. (note: this also increases midtone contrast, since it not only separates highlights, but midtones too (shifts left midtones further left than right midtones, compressing shadows. hint: +shadows and/or -highlights for compensations if desired).

                                                 

                                                R

                                                • 141. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                  wdmn Community Member

                                                  Have  you included doing a 'soft proof' inspection while applying these coordinated adjustments?

                                                   

                                                  I fell upon your discovery by chance today because I'm testing out the soft proofing and the overlay results.

                                                  Although the soft proof is supposed to be displaying the colours that are out of gamat (J.Kost beta video) there appears to be a connection if the balance of exposure and whites or contrast shadows highlights as you have described above.

                                                   

                                                  By going back and doing these type of adjustments to the basic sliders I could either remove any red overlay colours....OR...adjust in another direction and increase the overlay.

                                                   

                                                  At one point I got a blue colour overlay instead of the red and no one has mentioned that....or what it means.

                                                   

                                                  Eventually I found the happy medium and printed the red/orangish tulip....which looks very close to the soft proof version.

                                                   

                                                  There hasn't been much discussion on this forum about translating the soft proofing views

                                                   

                                                  Rose

                                                  • 142. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                    areohbee Community Member

                                                    Hi Rose - @today, I'm clueless about soft-proofing (maybe "tomorrow " I'll get a clue...). - Rob

                                                    • 143. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                      Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                      wdmn wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Have  you included doing a 'soft proof' inspection while applying these coordinated adjustments?

                                                       

                                                      Rose...good point. If the final output is intended to be a print, you DO need to consider soft proofing as part of the process. Combining PV 2012 with the optimizations made available with soft proofing is critical to getting the best print you can get...

                                                      • 144. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                        wdmn Community Member

                                                        Venturing into the soft proof screen might give you a total shock or a pleasant surprise....

                                                         

                                                        The suggestion in the J.Kost video is to local brush paint desaturation on the specific areas....

                                                        ...very unscientific <grin>

                                                        I tried that and desaturated too much

                                                         

                                                        Then after looking at the little areas that had 'red' overlay patches I started thinking as to WHY this colour range was unhappy....so I went back to the exposure contrast ...and other sliders, by chance arriving at patterns of adjustment that you have found....

                                                         

                                                        The JKost video displays 'red' as the overlay. I managed to produce an overlay with distinct dark blue (like the clipping triangle will display in the histogram) magneta pink and a little red. Then rearranging the basic settings removed that. So I'm concluding that the basic develop settings have an influence and that the result in the soft proofing is not JUST 'out of gamat' for the particular printer paper profile.

                                                         

                                                        But those 'who know' will correct or add to that 'perception' <grin>

                                                        Rose

                                                        • 145. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                          areohbee Community Member

                                                          Problem: Midtones just a little too bright after everything else is just about right.

                                                          Solution: -exposure +shadows +highlights

                                                          (and the opposite if midtones a little too dim)

                                                          • 146. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                            cschenk599

                                                            I understand this is a very high level discussion of propper lightnint results. I'm photographing since like 2 months (using LR3 since a week) so take this with a grain of salt.

                                                             

                                                            Anyway, I made this portrait and messed around with fill light / recovery to get this very specific look (that is totally unrelated to getting a proper exposure and lighting) that I really like. I'm having a hard time reproducing this on LR4. What bothers me the most is that I'd get a specific aspect of it working, but at the same time I would overshoot somwhere else. Oftentimes I'd have to come back and make corrections on exposure level to correct for flaws that I produced while messing around with the silder. Also I'd be getting weird halos that I never saw on LR3. I'm a scrub at this and you can probably do it better, but honestly, why the trouble?

                                                             

                                                            came to ask why we just couldnt keep the old way of processing as an option? I understand that LR4 uses a new system that gets faster&better results in 99% of all cases and also improves compatibility across the Adobe range. You can always put a warning sticker out there saying something like USE WITH CAUTION! / NO COMPATIBILTY and obviously un-default it.

                                                             

                                                            Bottom line, its hard to understand why you would get rid of the old way of processing when there are obviously corner cases of where its superior (refering to some of the results posted in this thread, not my example I beg you). Yeah, the new system is more intuitive. I also get that fill / recovery and the new system is fundamentaly not compatible with each other. Just make a switch to change processing modes and hide it real deep in the expert settings. No harm done to anyone this way.

                                                             

                                                            0062.jpg

                                                            • 147. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                              The old processing is still available as an option.  Go to Camera Calibration panel and choose "2010" from Process popup.

                                                               

                                                              (Its real purpose is backwards compatibility for legacy images, but of course you can use it if that's what you prefer.)

                                                              • 148. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                cschenk599 Community Member

                                                                Oh dear, thats great. Thanks!

                                                                • 149. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                  areohbee Community Member

                                                                  cschenk599 wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  What bothers me the most is that I'd get a specific aspect of it working, but at the same time I would overshoot somwhere else. Oftentimes I'd have to come back and make corrections on exposure level to correct for flaws that I produced while messing around with the silder.

                                                                   

                                                                  Welcome to Lr4. - better, but trickier... - hang in there...

                                                                   

                                                                  R

                                                                  • 150. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                    areohbee Community Member

                                                                    cschenk599 wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Oh dear, thats great. Thanks!

                                                                     

                                                                    Best way to not get better with PV2012 is to use PV2010 instead.

                                                                     

                                                                    I recommend using it for comparison purposes, but the goal should be to ween, if possible - doncha think?

                                                                     

                                                                    R

                                                                    • 151. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                      areohbee Community Member

                                                                      My preferred order of adjustment (for "normal" photos when wanting fairly "normal" outcome):

                                                                       

                                                                      1. Exposure&Whites

                                                                      2. Blacks

                                                                      3. Contrast

                                                                      4. Highlights&Shadows

                                                                       

                                                                      Explanation:

                                                                       

                                                                      - Whites affects exposure and so overal exposure must take both into consideration. I frequently end up with significant +whites (or much less frequently, significant -whites).

                                                                      - I think the theory is that Lr4 has auto black-point computation which should be about right (and so blacks should "normally" only need minor adjustment after the rest), but either I'm wrong about that, it doesn't work too good, or I just like different black settings, but in any case I frequently end up with significant -blacks, and there is hardly much point in trying to adjust contrast/shadows until black point is in the ball park (and much less frequently, significant +blacks). I will often jump to the tone curve for a quick bend to bottom-most part of tone curve at this time too, when I can tell already it's going to be needed. And if I can already tell I'll be adding signficant +shadows, maybe -blacks a little more in anticipation. (I "normally" like contrasty shadows).

                                                                      - I "mostly" use contrast to define midtone contrast (as opposed to setting highlight and shadow levels), and highlights&shadows are almost always adjusted "simultaneously" (during coarse tuning) in compensatory fashion when overall exposure or contrast is adjusted. Note: This is one of the very cool things about Lr4 - you can have strong midtone contrast via contrast slider without having overdark shadows or overbright (detail-less) highlights. This is also one of the reasons old clarity is no longer needed so much in Lr4 (one can preserve or enhance midtone contrast without it). In Lr3, it was sometimes essential to drop contrast just to get some detail in the highlights, or be able to open the shadows enough before fill-light degraded image quality too much, at which point old clarity could be used as a crutch to "bridge the gap" and restore midtone contrast lost by dropping global contrast (and/or brightening).

                                                                       

                                                                      Your thoughts?

                                                                       

                                                                      R

                                                                      • 152. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                        wdmn Community Member

                                                                        Well you are certainly not leaving the white and black adjustments until the last <grin> (Rule #5 broken already <grin>)

                                                                         

                                                                        Yesterday I  clicked a series of 20 images with over exposed by by .5 purposely just to have materials to develop that would likely require lowering exposure

                                                                        With the lowering of the exposure then the whites did get a little plus shove but I didn't do it as move exposure and then drop down to white. I followed the 'rules'   and did the white and the black as 4th and 5th step respectively.

                                                                        The conditions were overcast mixed with intermittent sun through the clouds and the aperture range was F4.5 -5.6 and a few 6.5. Using manual I bumped the EV one notch.

                                                                        I used AUTO once and the exposure automatically went to -1.2 or in that range....so quite the task to mess with all the other settings and get a representation of the grass stalk closeup.

                                                                         

                                                                        When I checked the image with soft proof I found that the 'relative' choice gave a closer result than the perceptive. The perceptive was quite washed out. It wasn't a colourful content....(dead decorative grass stalks that had orange hue although it looked white/yellow) 

                                                                         

                                                                        The image looked just fine if it were destined to be a resized jpg but it wasn't looking fine as a perceptual soft proof.....

                                                                        This image was exported from the print section as a file jpg (600ppi) and opening with Qimage printing software. It actually looks fine in the Qimage

                                                                         

                                                                        Seems to me that there is going to be the original image prep, make a virtual print copy and edit that. To date I am attempting to process the original dng so that the soft proof looks like it expect it in a print.

                                                                         

                                                                        Rose

                                                                        • 153. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                          Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                                          Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Your thoughts?

                                                                           

                                                                          If you want some insight into what the new PV 2012 controls in Basic are doing....see this. The main takaway from this is that LR4's new PV 2012 isn't a dumbing down of the Basic panel control but is actually very high tech and bleeding edge image processing. Pretty cool stuff actually...

                                                                          • 154. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                            areohbee Community Member

                                                                            Or to put it less technically:

                                                                             

                                                                            Anybody who thinks the new basics are just a re-arranging of the previous controls either hasn't used it at all, or hasn't learned how to adjust things correctly yet.

                                                                             

                                                                            Not only is there the magic that makes things look really good, there are also substantial image quality improvements that presumably have nothing to do with the "magic" per se - besides the image hanging together without artifacts, sometimes wonky colors just snap to perfection...

                                                                             

                                                                            The more I use it the better I like it... (until I hit those problem photos... - sorry, I had to say it )

                                                                             

                                                                            Cheers,

                                                                            Rob

                                                                            • 155. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                              Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                                              Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              (until I hit those problem photos... - sorry, I had to say it )

                                                                               

                                                                              And not for nothing, it would be useful to supply Eric and Sylvain example raws for eval. Not rendered images, that's useless, but private example raws–with snapshots for various settings and some method of indicating where PV 2012 is less good. Odds are real good it won't make it into LR4 GM, but rest assured, the example raws WILL be used for future eval.

                                                                               

                                                                              If you DON'T contribute to the greator good, then complaining isn't really an option...

                                                                              • 156. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                areohbee Community Member

                                                                                Three kinds of "magic" in Lightroom 4:

                                                                                 

                                                                                1. The kind in Lr3 too (but improved in Lr4) - brightening/dimming of tones in one zone without losing contrast/tone in another (employs auto-masking/recombining...).

                                                                                2. The kind new to Lr4: this - local image enhancement sorta like a subtle and sophisticated implementation of Topaz Adjust / Lucas Art, image-wide and always on.

                                                                                3. The other kind new to Lr4: auto-highlight/shadow protection.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Type-1:

                                                                                ---------

                                                                                 

                                                                                The following controls do not employ Type-1 tone enhancement:

                                                                                - Exposure

                                                                                - Contrast

                                                                                - Whites

                                                                                - Blacks

                                                                                 

                                                                                The following do:

                                                                                - Highlights

                                                                                - Shadows

                                                                                - Clarity

                                                                                 

                                                                                * The following discussion excludes consideration of clarity, type-2, and type-3 magic.

                                                                                  

                                                                                Thus, if highlights = 0 and shadows = 0 then there will be no type-1 tone enhancements.

                                                                                 

                                                                                (same is true in Lr3 if fill-light=0 and recovery=0)

                                                                                 

                                                                                I was going to say more but I lost my train of thought, maybe later... - please stay tuned if you're finding this stuff useful, interesting, or at least entertaining, or pisses you off in a way that makes you feel superior...

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                Disclaimer: I have gleaned most of this stuff from looking at ordinary photographs and scrutinizing histograms, and by thinking while in bed and bath...

                                                                                I have no inside knowledge of Lightroom internals - so take with salt, and if you find any of this to be wrong, please don't keep it to yourself.

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                Cheers,

                                                                                Rob

                                                                                • 157. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                  Photo_op8 Community Member

                                                                                  "I was going to say more but I lost my train of thought, maybe later... - please stay tuned if you're finding this stuff useful, interesting, or at least entertaining, or pisses you off in a way that makes you feel superior..."

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Enough already. Just let this thread die. Posting every two days just to bump it up is getting a little sad!

                                                                                  • 158. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                    Keith_Reeder Community Member

                                                                                    Photo_op8 wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Enough already. Just let this thread die. Posting every two days just to bump it up is getting a little sad!

                                                                                    Exactly the same thought just popped into my head when yet another email with the same title dropped into my inbox...

                                                                                    • 159. Re: Lightroom 4 beta #1 test complete - final results.
                                                                                      bob frost Community Member

                                                                                      +1  Shows just how "final" the original post wasn't!!

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Bob Frost