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    Develop module & library module aren't matching

    messycupcakess Community Member

      When I am editing, my photos look how I want them to in the develop module, but when I switch over to the library they look different. Some photos it doesn't apply the clarity, highlights, noise reduction, or sharpening. I haven't had this problem up until a month or two ago. It used to be the same between the two modules and I no problems editing. Now it's a pain to edit because I have to switch to the Library to see what the image is really looking like, go back to develop to try and change it, but cant end up getting it to look how I want. Images look the same zoomed in, but not in normal view. I am on Windows, Lightroom 3.6. I have tried reupdating the software, downloading an older version. also updated my video driver, and nothing helped. trying to avoid reinstalling all of lightroom because I do not want to lose any previewly modified images.

       

      dev.JPGlib.JPG

       

      first one is the view from develop. you can tell its a lot more noisey.

      second picture is from the library. it's a lot more smooth.

       

      so basically my images aren't being shown correctly. I have looked through a lot of discussions on here and no one seems to have an answer...please help me! editing should be fun, not frustrating.

        • 1. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
          Jeffrey Tranberry Adobe Employee

          Are you looking at the images at actual pixels/100% zoom?

          • 2. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
            messycupcakess Community Member

            when I zoom into 1:1 the images look the same between the modules ( the correct way it is supposed to look, but with slight color differences ), when i switch the image to "fit" or "fill" is when it shows the differences

             

            lib1.JPG

            1:1 view from library

             

            dev1.JPG

            1:1 view from develop

             

             

            lib2.JPG

            "fit" view from library

             

            dev2.JPG

            "fit" view from develop.

             

             

             

            if you click on the images you can see the inconsistency. something isnt right here, i dont understand why the images arent the same between the modules regardless of what "view" or how zoomed in i am. I want my photos to look how they do when I am in develop, but when i export them, they are wrong and are showing what is appearing in the library

            • 3. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
              raldesign Community Member

              Has this been happening since you started using Lightroom, or is this new behavior?  I was wonderingif your video card / dispaly drivers have been updated recently or changed, but since you said the difference is also showing on export, something else is goin on.  I would suggest an uninstall & reinstall in case something has become corrupted in the rendering modules of the program, and make sure you are using the latest version (3.6)

              • 4. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                messycupcakess Community Member

                it is a new behavior for sure.  I havent had this problem until about a month ago. I tried updating my video driver, adobe suggested that to me too. But it didnt help. Also, i tried reinstalling the update a couple times, so it is version 3.6. Someone said that this is just what lightroom does, but that doesnt make sense because I shouldnt have to switch modules to see every change I am making. If I uninstall and reinstall, what will I lose? I backup my Lightroom catalogs weekly. But if I reinstall will I be able to go back and see and work previously modified edits, watermarks, or will that all be gone?

                • 5. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                  raldesign Community Member

                  All of the edits are associated with the catalogs & are saved there. As far as other settings, refer to this thread, wuoted in my reply

                  http://forums.adobe.com/message/3655527#3655527

                   

                  "First of all: Before you re-format your system backup your Catalog to an external hard drive.

                  Go to Edit > Catalog Settings > General tab and select "Every time LR exits".

                  Next time you close LR the backup dialog will pop up that lets you choose the backup location.

                   

                  If you have User-generated Presets you will have to manually copy them to your external hard drive. You do this in your OS.

                  In Windows the Presets are by default in Documents & Settings > Application Data > Adobe > Lightroom.

                  Copy all these folders (via Edit > Copy to Folder) to your external hard drive.

                   

                  After re-installing LR navigate to your backe-up catalog and double-click it. LR will then open with this catalog. Open Preferences > Presets > Show LR Presets Folder and note where this folder is. Then copy your Presets from your external hard drive back to this Presets folder.

                   

                  As for the settings in Preferences you will have to manually re-set them; there is no way to save these.

                   

                  BTW: It is always a good idea to back-up your Catalog when you exit LR.

                   

                  WW"

                  • 6. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                    messycupcakess Community Member

                    ok, and what about like my flickr & facebook export albums, are they backed up with the catalogs too?

                    might have to give in and reinstall then....I just downloaded the lightroom trial on another computer and uploaded something to edit to see if the same thing happens...and it does, i am in develop and it isnt showing the correct noise reduction changes, and again, the image in the library looks different. why would this be? it this a bug in the 3.6 update or something?

                    • 7. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                      raldesign Community Member

                      Very strange indeed. I was just using the 3.6 update all day with a client project & everything was displaying fine from module to module...If I come across any further insight, I'll add it here. 

                      • 8. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                        messycupcakess Community Member

                        please do, it is making editing very frustrating and not fun to do. thank you for the help so far

                         

                        I compared an image between library and develop, before I made any changes at all, and it shows them a bit different too

                        • 9. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                          ssprengel MVP

                          Noise-reduction isn’t necessarily applied to reduced-sized views in Develop, though sometimes it is.  Perhaps something is different about the recent images that LR has decided not show any NR for the reduced-size views.   LR4 changes this behavior so that NR is always applied to reduced-sized views. 

                           

                           

                           

                          If you export an image at full-size and then view it outside of LR with an OS viewer or a browser, does the exported image look more like the Library view or the Develop view?

                           

                           

                           

                          Before doing anything too drastic, it is possible that the hard-disk, or camera-raw cache, or previews database and cache is corrupted, so check your hard-drive for problems, purge the Camera RAW cache via the button on the File Handling tab in LR Preferences, and if neither of those things help, then with LR closed, rename the previews folder which is in the Catalog folder and is called catalog-name Previews.lrdata.

                          • 10. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                            messycupcakess Community Member

                            but either way, my images should look exactly the same between develop module & library, and they don't. no matter what kind of editing is done to them.

                            the exported image is looking like the one that shows up in the library.

                             

                            i want to avoid reinstalling. what does "purge cache" do?

                            • 11. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                              ssprengel MVP

                              Saying something should be true does not make it true.  In LR, up through version 3, the reduced-sized views in Develop (mostly) don’t have noise-reduction applied and is why you see a yellow  exclamation point warning about needing to view things at 100% for the Detail settings to be previewed fully. 

                               

                               

                               

                              It could very well be that nothing is wrong except your expectations, or it could be that something is corrupted and causing previews not to work right.

                               

                               

                               

                              The Camera-RAW cache is where LR and Adobe Camera RAW store the demosaicked data (before any settings are applied) so the Adobe RAW engine (in either LR or ACR) doesn’t have to demosaic the RAW image every time a new preview is generated.   Demosaicking is the process of converting the one-color-per-pixel RAW data into 3-colors-per-pixel RGB data, onto which most of the adjustments are applied.

                               

                               

                               

                              The Previews folder is where LR stores thumbnails and Library preview data that might also have become corrupted causing the reduced-sized views to not be right.  If it’s not outright disk corruption, the previews folder being corrupted would be next most probable.

                              • 12. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                messycupcakess Community Member

                                I have never seen a yellow exclamtion point warning when doing any of that. my expectations are not wrong. I expect Lightroom to work how it should, showing identical images when I'm editing, regardless of what I am changing or module it's in. That's how it has always been. Ive used it long enough to know that something isnt right here. I have never had to switch between modules to find out what is going on with my image, that wouldnt make sense. What happens when I go to order prints of new shots I have now? They are going to come out complete wrong, because Lightroom wont show me the right thing. Something went corrupt in my program, because editing should be working at ease. what it comes down to is, my images should be EXACTLY  the same no matter where I go in the program, and they arent. how do i tell if those folders are corrupt? when I go look at old pictures that have already been worked on, it shows a difference between modules too.

                                 

                                here is a perfect example:

                                 

                                an image i messed around with, here is it "fill" in the develop, i cranked up the contrast, and clarity is at 100%, added sharpening. looks good.

                                dev3.JPG

                                 

                                 

                                switched over to library. and it looks COMPLETEY different, really blurry, not sharp at all. blacks arent as dark as the other module.

                                 

                                lib3.JPG

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                it should be exactly the same when i switch from develop to library and not change at all. i have tried to reinstall the update and do "repair" when it asks if i want to uninstall or repair. says it is supposed to find corrupt files and fix the,  but problem is still there

                                • 13. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                  messycupcakess Community Member

                                  i downloaded the LR4 beta, seems to have fixed the noise reduction problem not showing right. still slight diffrences on between the modules with other features...hmmm

                                  • 14. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                    CSS Simon Community Member

                                    As ssprengel says, for noise and sharpening the library and develop views are not necessarily the same in LR3.  As I recall, at low ISO, noise reduction isn't applied in develop module except at 100% view.  The reason: to save processing.  The library preview is created and cached, but the develop view must be rendered each time.  The logic is that generally noise is not very visible except at 100% view. 

                                     

                                    Another difference: library module renders Adobe RGB (previews are stored in 8-bit Adobe RGB) whereas develop module uses ProPhoto RGB.  Obviously this has no visible effect on the display unless there's something wrong with the monitor profile. 

                                    • 15. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                      messycupcakess Community Member

                                      right, but ever since I have gotten lightroom, I have always been able to see noise reduction changes immediately when i adjust them, no matter what view i am in. If i am in fit then i can see the over all picture change instantly. looks like it just isnt applying it correctly, because its not showing at all in develop and then when i go to library, it's too much. so im not sure what is going on, seems like something it out of sync, because I downloaded LR4 beta to see if anything was different, and as soon as I did adjustments on noise reduction, i could see it right away, without switching modules.

                                      • 16. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                        messycupcakess Community Member

                                        ok after 3 days of non stop working on this LR prob, I think I finally fixed it. Had to reinstall a lower version, 3.5, and after I did that everything seems to be working right again, color adjustments are being made as soon as I change them, still variation between the two modules, but it is now exporting the correct file instead of the wrong one. noise reduction is working at any view. seems faster too. cleared out 1,000+ raw files. thanks for all your input

                                        • 17. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                          tgbyrne716 Community Member

                                          I have just come across this problem in LR 5.7. The images in Library and Develop do not match. I have posted screen shots from these images below.

                                          First is the image as it appears in Library and second is how it looks in Develop. I have cleared the caches and deleted the preview file and not much help. At first it did seem to render and image in Library similar to Develop then something happened and it went back to the Library image that you see here.  The Library version is also what is exported as JPG. Thanks in advance for your help. - Tom

                                          Screen Shot 2015-02-15 at 12.03.04 PM.png

                                          Screen Shot 2015-02-15 at 12.02.48 PM.png

                                          • 18. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                            mnashp Community Member

                                            also just recently encountered the same problem with LR 5.7. Too bad it exports the Library version, which is never what i have developed. I'm a heavy user, but just started noticing this a couple weeks ago. It seems possibly related to virtual copies, so i'm wondering if i'm not handling them wrong. I'm thinking i should maybe not be working on the virtuals, just using them as snapshots. I'll try to rule that out and report back. I might forget or get lost too, so ding me ;-)

                                            • 19. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                              nancys28582064 Community Member

                                              I'm having the same issues...started a few weeks ago. Changes I am making in the develop module are not appearing or saving in the library module, thus my exports look really crappy. I need this resolved now!!  I need to print and give customers digital copies of images and can't do it. Is Adobe just ignoring this issue?

                                              • 20. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                mnashp Community Member

                                                may i ask if it happens under every condition, or working with virtual copies or with photos saved back from photoshop that may get tweaked again (not best-practice from what i understand, but i still do it sometimes)?

                                                • 21. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                  nancys28582064 Community Member

                                                  This happens with my photos imported directly from my camera...not from PS nor any other program. Doesn't matter if I use a preset or not. Mainly affects images with dark areas because it's more visible. Not using a preset lessens the problem, but still very visible...even though the library view looks correct, still exports terrible. I'm not overwriting either...deleted old export. Clients asking for previews on facebook but they look too bad to post.

                                                  • 22. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                    mnashp Community Member

                                                    i noticed it happening to virtual photos, and thought maybe it was because i should just be using them as snapshots and continue working on the original. I'm trying to reproduce the problem now, but a bunch of stuff has come up and i may not be able to get to it till tomorrow ;-/

                                                     

                                                    also noticed that facebook pulled one of them way toward the blue. I didn't notice it right away, and now everybody liked it too blue like that. Not a big deal like having actual livelihood in the balance. I'd like to see Adobe jumping in. Have you opened a support ticket yet? I will as soon as i can reproduce it.

                                                    • 23. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                      trshaner MVP

                                                      tgbyrne716 wrote:

                                                       

                                                      I have just come across this problem in LR 5.7. The images in Library and Develop do not match. I have posted screen shots from these images below.

                                                      First is the image as it appears in Library and second is how it looks in Develop. I have cleared the caches and deleted the preview file and not much help. At first it did seem to render and image in Library similar to Develop then something happened and it went back to the Library image that you see here.  The Library version is also what is exported as JPG. Thanks in advance for your help. - Tom

                                                      The Develop module uses a simple and fast "nearest neighbor" interpolation algorithm for creating the screen preview image. The nearest neighbor algorithm tends to make the image appear slightly over-sharpened at Zoom view sizes less than 1:1 (100%). In addition it is affected less by the noise in high ISO image files.

                                                       

                                                      The Library module uses a JPEG 'Preview' file containing pyramid images 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16 for creating the Zoom view screen preview. When using 'Fit' or Fill' Zoom view in the Library module a 2nd interpolation is applied to the closest pyramid image, which may cause visible  "softening" of the screen preview image. In addition if the image file contains significant noise due to high ISO and/or long exposure setting the Library preview image AND Exported images may appear less sharp and in some cases brighter due to the noise. The solution is to apply sufficient amount of Luminance and Color Noise Reduction and view the image at one of the pyramid Zoom settings (1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16) instead of 'Fit' or 'Fill.'

                                                       

                                                      The only 100% accurate screen preview in LR is the Develop module's 1:1 Zoom view setting, which is what you should use to set the Sharpening and Noise Reduction controls.

                                                      • 24. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                        philb45695805 Community Member

                                                        I *like* the Develop module view of my image exactly the way it is presented on screen after sharpening and noise reduction in raw details, and it is precisely the size of interest to me when displayed at 1:4, around 1200 px horizontal, as I intend to use it for screen/web viewing.  The *only* way I've been able to duplicate it in a saved jpeg is to take a screen shot!  That's ridiculous.  I phoned Adobe support, and they could not assist, saying it was a "feature", while acknowledging there is an issue.  Very frustrating.  Adobe has done such a wonderful job making the image look great in the Develop module, it is a shame that I can't export it to look the same.  Can someone tell me how to create an exact copy of the image, as displayed in the Develop module, from LR, w/o needing to take a screenshot?

                                                         

                                                        As an attempt to work around this problem, I tried the following:

                                                        If I first save the image resized smaller as, say, a TIFF (with no sharpening), with the desired 1200px horizontal resolution, then go back in to LR or PS, and sharpen the TIFF with the same Camera Raw tools, thereby using 1:1 zoom settings everywhere which everybody says is so important, the result is an inferior image, and not the same as the screen shot described above.

                                                         

                                                        Whatever LR is doing to display the Develop "preview" at 1:4, it is what I would like to do to the final image.  How do I do that?

                                                         

                                                        (BTW, the Library Module view indeed is not sharpened at all, as is described by others above, but my question is more pressing: how can I generate the image that LR's tools have allowed me to create and see on my screen?)

                                                        • 25. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                          trshaner MVP

                                                          Did you read my post #23 above yours? Do you understand my explanation concerning differences between the Develop and Library module previews?

                                                           

                                                          LR's Develop module applies Capture Sharpening, which has the most effect on the image when viewed at 1:1 (100%) Zoom view. At less than 1:1 Zoom settings the preview is at best an approximation. Ditto for the Library module, which is actually the most accurate at the Pyramid Zoom settings and not Fit or Fill. Why???? When an image file is resized to make it smaller edge sharpening is lost during the Bicubic resizing process, which prevents creating jaggies.  Output Sharpening must be applied in an amount required for the intended media (screen, gloss paper, matte paper) and to the degree desired (low, standard, high). To achieve the look you are seeing at 1:4 Zoom view in the Develop module (i.e. slightly over-sharpened) try 'Screen' 'High' Output Sharping setting in the Export module for web/screen viewing. If that's not high enough I suggest you revisit your Develop module Sharpening settings using 1:1 Zoom view and adjust accordingly. You can achieve even higher Output Sharpening settings by using the Gloss Paper or Matte Paper settings. Screen is the lowest, Gloss Paper next, and Matte Paper the highest sharpening settings.

                                                           

                                                          You can also use one of third-party sharpening plugins or Photoshop, but I've always been able to achieve the sharpening effect required using LR's tools. For Creative sharpening you can use the Adjustment Brush with Sharpening to increase (or decrease) sharpening in specific areas.

                                                           

                                                          BTW- The Library module does indeed apply sharpening to the less than 1:1 Zoom view preview, but at what Adobe considers a "normal" amount. Your idea of normal may be different, which can be establish using the different Export Output Sharpening settings. Once you know the settings that give you the desired sharpening, just make a mental note or use the 'Add' preset button in the lower left-hand corner of the Export module.

                                                           

                                                          If you still have issues let us know and we will try to provide more suggestions.

                                                          • 26. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                            philb45695805 Community Member

                                                            Thanks for the suggestions, but, to my eye, sharpening at any combination of (low, medium, high) with (Screen, Gloss, or Matte) do not sharpen the resultant jpeg the same way or to my preference as to what I see in the Develop Module using the RAW Detail sharpness and noise reduction sliders.

                                                             

                                                            Really what it boils down to is that LR, in this instance, is not a WYSIWYG photo editor.  Certainly in the case where the user is targeting print media, there is no such thing as WYSIWYG, but when the user's intended target is a modest sized jpeg for screen use, it would be nice if LR could show exactly what that result will look like.  [Of course, the Develop Module doesn't "know" the size of the user's intended export which occurs later in the workflow.]  Okay, so it's not too much work (?) to generate 3 times 3 or nine attempts at different output sharpnesses and compare the results to one's liking, but I'm saying, from my experience, none of those results match what I see in the Develop Module image where the user has tremendous control over exactly how the sharpening and noise reduction occurs, and, to my eye, can achieve far superior results.  Again, as per my original comment, I only wish to create a jpeg that matches what I see in the Develop Module, and that is only possible (in a 1:4 situation) by taking a screen shot.

                                                             

                                                            That said, I revisited my workaround, and can say that I can create a workflow to achieve precisely the sharpness I desire and exactly match the Develop Module preview: and that is by first making all RAW adjustments except for sharpness and noise reduction, saving the image by exporting w/out any export sharpening to a TIFF that has the exact dimensions of my true intended target.  Then open the TIFF in LR, and edit the sharpness and noise reduction at 1:1;  Since it's now 1:1, the sharpness and noise reduction effects seen in the Develop Module are identical to my exported result, and I am a happy camper.  [And as a bonus, since we're using 1:1, the Library Module view looks identical as well.]

                                                             

                                                            I acknowledge that for quick work, none of this is necessary, or an issue, but if I'm trying to make my pictures look their absolute best on a web page, and the original happens to need some sharpening, this seems to be the best approach.

                                                            • 27. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                              trshaner MVP

                                                              I cannot replicate your issue using Canon CR2 files with LR5.7.1. Export files with Resize to 1/4 (.25) and Output Sharpening set to Screen Standard produce an image that is slightly sharper than the original raw file when compared 1:1 (Export file) and 1:4 (original raw file) in the Library module. The two look virtually identical when viewed in the Develop module at 1:1 and 1:4 respectively:


                                                              (Windows 7 SP1, LR 5.7.1)

                                                              Export Sharpening Comparison _.25 Reszie.jpg

                                                               

                                                              philb45695805 wrote:

                                                               

                                                              Thanks for the suggestions, but, to my eye, sharpening at any combination of (low, medium, high) with (Screen, Gloss, or Matte) do not sharpen the resultant jpeg the same way or to my preference as to what I see in the Develop Module using the RAW Detail sharpness and noise reduction sliders.

                                                               

                                                              Would you please explain in more detail what you mean by the underlined statement. Do you mean the resized Export image file is simply less sharp than the original raw file when viewed at 1:4? If so there is an issue with your LR installation.

                                                               

                                                              There was an issue with LR4 and early versions of LR5 (5.2, 5.4) causing some systems to not apply Output Sharpening when resizing images to 1/3 or less, which is what you are doing (1/4). This can also be caused by an incompatible monitor profile, corrupt Preferences file, and with some high ISO raw images.

                                                               

                                                              What version system OS are you using, version of LR, is the monitor calibrated, and what ISO are the image files?

                                                              • 28. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                philb45695805 Community Member

                                                                Yes, I mean the exported jpg is less sharp than the original raw file when viewed 1:4 in the Develop module.

                                                                 

                                                                Using these raw detail settings:

                                                                RAW Develop Module Detail settings.jpg

                                                                Here's the original raw file seen in the Develop Module at 1:4 - this is a 100% crop of an exact screenshot:

                                                                Develop Module Screen Shot at 1to4 with RAW sharpening and NR 100pct crop.jpg


                                                                Here is the image exported to a jpg using Screen Standard sharpness (100% crop of the same region shown above):

                                                                Export With Screen Standard Sharpening 100pct crop.jpg

                                                                 

                                                                And here's the Export using Matte Standard sharpness:

                                                                Export With Matte Standard Sharpening 100pct crop.jpg


                                                                Yes, those are strong sharpness settings.  But I liked the effect in the Develop 1:4 screenshot.  Look at the petals, the stone, the noise level in both the smooth and rough water.

                                                                To my view, the exports look lousy in comparison.


                                                                I'm using the latest LR 5.7.1, Windows 8.1.  This is an ISO 100 shot, Panasonic RW2 raw file.  The monitor is calibrated manually.  I tried different monitor profile settings within Windows, but I couldn't see that that made any difference.  Currently I have Windows set to the manufacturer's Color Profile for the monitor.

                                                                 

                                                                My LR installation seems to be working perfectly fine in other respects.

                                                                • 29. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                  trshaner MVP

                                                                  There are two things that may be affecting the sharpness in resized images and <1:1 previews (i.e. 1:4) of the original raw file.

                                                                   

                                                                  ISSUE #1: Adjustments should only be made in the LR Sharpening and Noise Reduction panels at 1:1 (100%) Zoom view. The Sharpening Amount 150 and Detail 47 is way over the top! If you examine the image file at 1:1 Zoom view with those settings the image will appear "grainy" due to amplified sensor noise, even with ISO 100 image files. Adobe set the Sharpening Amount slider Amount to a value of 150 to indicate it is ~50% higher than you should ever need (i.e. 100). This provides additional Sharpening Amount range to over-ride local -Sharpness applied with the Graduated filter, Radial filter, and Adjustment brush. It's also there for "creative purposes" to simply allow making the image appear over-sharpened.

                                                                   

                                                                  MORE THAN YOU PROBABLY NEED TO KNOW (For Techno Geeks & Nerds Only)

                                                                  When a raw image has excessive Sharpening and/or insufficient Noise Reduction applied it can cause decreased image sharpness in the Library module at less than 1:1 Zoom view (i.e. 1:4) and when resizing images during Export (i.e. 1/4 size). Both the Library preview and Exported files use Bicubic interpolation for resizing, which uses the average of 16 pixels (4x4) for each resized pixel. The Develop module uses Nearest Neighbor resizing, which uses one "closest value pixel" of the surrounding 4 pixels. When there is visible noise in the image (i.e. at 1:1 view) the Bicubic interpolation averages the noise pixels in each 16 pixel sample used to create the resized image. This causes the image to lose edge sharpness and can also cause it to appear "lighter' and lower in contrast in extreme cases (i.e. very high ISO).

                                                                   

                                                                  ISSUE #2: There have been some reports of the Library preview and resized Export images appearing softer than the Develop module preview due to an "incompatible" or "damaged" monitor profile. A quick test for this is to replace the monitor profile with the system sRGB profile for standard gamut monitors and Adobe RGB profile for wide gamut monitors. If this fixes he problem then your best solution is to purchase a hardware monitor calibrator, which is a good idea regardless of this issue. For any serious (or semi-serious) work in LR you're "flying blind" without a properly calibrated monitor (100-120 cd/m2, 2.2 Gamma, 6500K).

                                                                  • 30. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                    philb45695805 Community Member

                                                                    Per my post 26, I have already acknowledged that using Develop 1:1 is recommended by Adobe; what is confusing is that LR (and Camera Raw itself) allow one to view the image at 1:4 and set sharpness anyway, and, it so happens, I like the 1:4 view I get in the Develop Module when doing this.  As you've pointed out, using Sharpening 150 and Detail 47 is extremely high.  I totally agree.  But here's the thing: if, as I state in post 26, I first save the image as a TIFF with the desired target size (1224 horiz. pixels in this case), which is .25 of the original size, and then bring that unsharpened TIFF back into LR, and view it 1:1 in the Develop Module, now I get a pleasing result with Sharpening 60, Detail 60.  And these numbers aren't "way over the top".  So everything works as expected when working at 1:1.  I just don't get what is happening when I run Develop at 1:4.  Yeah, when I view the allegedly way over sharpened original image at 1:1, it does look oversharpened and very noisy, but when I switch to 1:4 it looks fine.  My preference would be not to have to do the intermediate step of converting my raw images to their target destination size first, then sharpening, but there doesn't appear to be a workflow for me to do that.  Sure, I can look at the original at 1:1, but I can't really gauge how the sharpness is going to look overall when I can only see a portion of my image.  Since I can't export it, I've no way of knowing if I truly applied extreme sharpening or not.  The image only exists in this form in the Develop module preview - not on disk.

                                                                     

                                                                    I guess the only conclusion I can make is that the nearest neighbor algorithm happens to make it look appealing, but that this Develop Module 1:4 preview isn't really useful for anything else.  It gives me an idea of how the sharpened image might look at a regular screen size, but that's about it.  The sharpness sliders are extreme and perhaps meaningless.  And I can't export it with that appearance anyway. 

                                                                     

                                                                    Regarding Issue #2, exporting, I have tried your suggested quick test of a different sRGB Color Profile and it makes no difference.  Understand though that I do believe export works fine when I'm working with the sharpened target sized TIFF, as I described above.  I am a hobbyist, not a professional, so I don't see a need to buy a hardware monitor calibrator at the moment.  I do have one excellent piece of hardware called a "Macbeth Color Checker color rendition chart".  As you may know, it is physical grid of several calibrated colors.  I've taken photos of it, and viewed the results on my screen.  This is in some ways (not all) better than a color calibrator, as it checks the throughput of both the camera and the computer as an entire system.  I have verified that the resulting screen colors look pretty close to the original physical thing I took a picture of.  Not really "flying blind"

                                                                    • 31. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                      trshaner MVP

                                                                      philb45695805 wrote:

                                                                      Regarding Issue #2, exporting, I have tried your suggested quick test of a different sRGB Color Profile and it makes no difference.  Understand though that I do believe export works fine when I'm working with the sharpened target sized TIFF, as I described above.  I am a hobbyist, not a professional, so I don't see a need to buy a hardware monitor calibrator at the moment.  I do have one excellent piece of hardware called a "Macbeth Color Checker color rendition chart".  As you may know, it is physical grid of several calibrated colors.  I've taken photos of it, and viewed the results on my screen.  This is in some ways (not all) better than a color calibrator, as it checks the throughput of both the camera and the computer as an entire system.  I have verified that the resulting screen colors look pretty close to the original physical thing I took a picture of.  Not really "flying blind"

                                                                      I think you misunderstood my Issue #2 Suggestion. There have been reports by some users of the "soft images" with less than 1:1 previews and Exports. In some cases the solution was to substitute the system sRGB profile for the current monitor profile....NOT the Export module File Settings> Color space! See this post with links on how to change the monitor profile:

                                                                       

                                                                      Re: The sharpening does not want to stick in library or exporting.

                                                                       

                                                                      My resized (and full-size) exports can be easily "over-sharpened" by setting the Export module 'Output Sharpening' to a high sharpening setting, so clearly you have an issue. If you can post the RW2 raw file to Dropbox or other site for download I'll be glad to see how it behaves on my Windows 7 SP1 LR5.7.1 system.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                        philb45695805 Community Member

                                                                        No, I understood correctly that you meant the monitor profile for the OS.

                                                                         

                                                                        I re-read the referenced thread, and guess I under-appreciated Jao's comments (#30) first time around; indeed I'd agree that Develop Module larger than 1:1 isn't accurate for sharpening purposes.

                                                                        FWIW, the exports *do* match the Library View.  So, if I way over-sharpen in Develop, then, yes, I see a lesser amount, but some, sharpening in Library view, and it exports the same.

                                                                         

                                                                        Also, it occurs to me that if USM sharpening uses a radius of 1 pixel (defaults to 1 pixel, anyway, on the slider); obviously that means something very different in the overgrown super hi-res raw file, than when performed on my downsized target image.  So all things being equal, the same USM settings (that is, the slider positions in LR Detail) would affect a lower res picture much more strongly.

                                                                         

                                                                        I think many of my camera's images are just too soft in the raw files.  Someday I'll get a camera with a bigger sensor and better glass

                                                                        • 33. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                          trshaner MVP

                                                                          philb45695805 wrote:

                                                                          I think many of my camera's images are just too soft in the raw files.  Someday I'll get a camera with a bigger sensor and better glass

                                                                          I think you're selling yourself and camera equipment short.

                                                                           

                                                                          Full-size JPEG copies of your raw images should not be used for "screen viewing" such as Web posting, slideshows, etc. We've covered the differences between the Library and Develop module preview sharpness and Fit and Fill view versus the pyramid Zoom view size (1:8, 1:4, 1:3, 1:2) sharpness issues. When resizing images to 1/2 or less the sharpness of the Exported JPEG is largely dependent on the Output Sharpening setting. For best results the export Resize Long Edge dimension (pixels) should be no larger than the target monitor resolution so that it will display at 1:1 (100%) view size. Using "normal" sharpening and NR settings in the Develop module you should be be able to create crisply sharpened resized JPEG Exports using one of the Output Sharpening settings. If not there are other issues at work.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                            Rivosyke Community Member

                                                                            Did you ever get a resolution for the exporting issue? I'm experiencing the same thing with lightroom 5.6 and 5.7 (windows 8.1) and it is incredibly frustrating.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                              trshaner MVP

                                                                              Please provide specific details as to camera model, image file type (raw, JPEG), and ISO setting used. Also provide LR Detail panel settings and LR Export module panel settings for 'File Settings,' 'Image Sizing,' and 'Output Sharpening' used. You can copy and paste screenshots if you like in your reply using Windows Snipping Tool or How to take a screenshot on your Mac - Apple Support.

                                                                               

                                                                              EXAMPLE

                                                                              Canon 5D MKII Raw CR2 Image file shot at ISO 3200, F2.8, and 10 second exposure.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                                philb45695805 Community Member

                                                                                No.  I agree that it is very frustrating.  The Develop module uses a different rendering algorithm than the Library module when showing you what your image looks like after sharpening and/or noise reduction (at 1:n where n > 1).  Those sliders *are* working, it's just that you can't see a meaningful result in the Develop module, unless you are at 1:1.

                                                                                Basically, I find myself switching to the Library module to get a "quick" closer rendition of how the resultant image will look when my eventual target image size is, in fact, similar to the Library image screen size within LR.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                                  Rivosyke Community Member

                                                                                  Thanks for the response. This appears to be more the issue with image that is exported is using the algorithm for the library module as opposed to the changes made using the develop module. The histograms are different when switching between the two modules (Library/Develop) for the same image. I have tried deleting the cache in-app and rebuilding the preview directory. I've also tried a new catalog to no avail as well as trying different versions of LR (5.4, 5.71, CC). I see that when viewing at 1:1 the images look the same due to how the algorithm differences. I suppose my question is how are you supposed to know what things look like without viewing the whole image at 1:1, which would take forever? The whole point of the develop module, from what I can see, is to make edits quickly. If, by design, the image is not supposed to look how it does when you are given your preview in the develop module, then how are you supposed to actually edit?

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Camera: D7100

                                                                                  Image Type: RAW

                                                                                  ISO: 3200

                                                                                   

                                                                                  LR settings.png

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                                    Rivosyke Community Member

                                                                                    This makes me not want to use LR and use something else. If, by design, I can't trust that what it looks like in the develop module is how it will actually export, then I need a new solution. It makes no sense to give the user a false sense of what the resultant image will look like, regardless of the preview being used.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Develop module & library module aren't matching
                                                                                      trshaner MVP

                                                                                      Rivosyke wrote:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Thanks for the response. This appears to be more the issue with image that is exported is using the algorithm for the library module as opposed to the changes made using the develop module. The histograms are different when switching between the two modules (Library/Develop) for the same image.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Camera: D7100

                                                                                      Image Type: RAW

                                                                                      ISO: 3200

                                                                                      Bingo! You're using an ISO 3200 image with fairly high sharpening settings, which is going to increase noise in the image. If you view the image at 1:1 in the Develop module the noise should very visible. The Develop module and Library module 1:1 previews should both show the noise and look very close to each other. The reason why less than 1:1 Zoom previews (i.e. Fit, Fill, 1:4) and histograms look different is explained in my reply #29 under this heading MORE THAN YOU PROBABLY NEED TO KNOW (For Techno Geeks & Nerds Only). The Export module uses the same Bicubic algorithm as the Library module, which is why the Library module's preview is more accurate than the Develop module. Virtually all image editors (not just LR) use the same Bicubic resizing algorithms and will produce the same discrepancy when compared to LR's Develop module preview.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Fortunately there is a very easy solution to this issue. Unfortunately many people prefer to complain, say it is a LR "bug," and don't listen further to suggestions on "fixing" the issue. If you fall into the latter camp don't bother reading further! Sorry if this sounds crass and cynical, but I can only provide advice. Whether you believe me and try it is your decision! It works for me using five different camera models with both raw and JPEG image files.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      High ISO and/or High Sharpening Preview Discrepancy Fix

                                                                                      1) Set Develop module to 1:1 Zoom View.

                                                                                      2) a. Adjust Sharpening panel settings for desired look.

                                                                                          b. With noisy images it's best to keep the Detail setting no higher than 35.

                                                                                          c. Try using the Masking slider to reduce noise in even toned areas.

                                                                                      3) Increase Detail panel Color setting until the color noise is barely visible.

                                                                                      4) If there is still some residual color noise try increasing the Color detail setting to ~80.

                                                                                      4) Increase the Detail panel Luminance setting until noise is barely visible or gone.

                                                                                      5) If the image has lost significant sharpness try increasing the Luminance Detail setting to ~80.

                                                                                      6) If necessary go back to steps # 2-5 and make small adjustments to the Sharpening and NR settings.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Now compare the Develop and Library previews at Fit view or better yet at 1:8, 1:4, or 1:3. They should look very close to each other with the Develop preview very slightly sharper. Full-size and reduced size Exports should look very close to what you see in the Develop module. When Resizing images don't forget to add Export Output Sharpening. When images are Resized the Output Sharpening setting has more influence on image sharpness than the LR Develop Sharpening settings. For most images the Screen Standard setting should produce crisp images. If you want more try the High setting. I generally find the Screen Low setting produces the most natural look. YMMV dependent on lens performance, camera shake, focus issues, or simply poor lighting (cloudy, foggy, etc.).

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