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      • 80. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
        thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

        t.hall1982 wrote:

        I'm not comparing RAW to JPEG, or using JPEG at all... and maybe I should clarify "in camera exposure" to "metered in studio".

        Either way, exposing for raw is a bit different from exposing for the JPEG especially if you are using the camera meter without first nailing exposure for raw. This might help:

        http://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/camera-technique/exposing-for-raw.html

        • 81. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
          TheAnthonyHall Community Member

          Jao vdL wrote:

          Good idea. In the mean time some screenshots (compare the same image in PV 2010 at default to PV2012 at default as well as what happen when you lower whites in PV2012) would be nice. I think I know what you are talking about but would be nice to see it.

          I'll give this a shot...

           

          Both examples the 2010 prcess version is on the left, 2012 process version on the right.

           

          Here both are set at defaults and linear tone curve...

          Screen shot 2012-02-09 at 12.18.11 PM.png

           

          and here the 2012 version on right I have adjusted the "whites" to match the 2010 version...

          Screen shot 2012-02-09 at 12.22.05 PM.png

          while it's easy to say "the one on right looks better than the one on left", there is a noticeable shift in the models skin tones by simply adjusting the whites...

           

          Another example, same scenario...

           

          before matching whites...

           

          Screen shot 2012-02-09 at 12.25.06 PM.png

          and after matching whites...

          Screen shot 2012-02-09 at 12.29.37 PM.png

           

          In the skateboard example, the "before adjusting whites" 2012 process version board is noticabley dull compared to the 2010 version (almost just like if I had used recovery in LR3, which I grew to despise and almost never use, becuse of this effect). After adjusting only the "whites", however, the tones of the baord have shifted considerably towards brighter highlights, well beyond what I would want.

           

          Hope this helps clarify what I'm talking about.

           

          Edited to add:

           

          What is also strange, is that in the example with the model, the "before" version of the 2012 process has slightly more, and in my opinion pleasing, contrast on the model, while having less blown highlights than the 2010 process; in the skateboard example, the 2012 "before" board has noticebly LESS contrast...

          • 82. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
            Jeff Schewe Community Member

            t.hall1982 wrote:

             

            In the skateboard example, the "before adjusting whites" 2012 process version board is noticabley dull compared to the 2010 version (almost just like if I had used recovery in LR3, which I grew to despise and almost never use, becuse of this effect). After adjusting only the "whites", however, the tones of the baord have shifted considerably towards brighter highlights, well beyond what I would want.

             

             

            Well, there's a reason there are other controls in the Basic panel...shifting +Whites will lighten more than JUST the white point. As Eric said, that's to be expected...so what happens if you increase whites and slightly decrease Exposure?

             

            Also note that the easiest way to clip the background without impacting much of the rest of the tone curve would be in the point curve editor...pretty easy to do using the TAT.

            • 83. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
              Jao vdL Community Member

              I already see a difference in skin tone between 2010 and 2012 before you do anything. That's a larger difference in hue than I am seeing between PV 2010 and PV 2012. Are you using default settings in 2010? You should start at medium tone curve, not linear. The medium tone curve makes the LR rendering (when using PV 2010) reproduce the tone curve built in to the camera profile you are using (in calibration), In PV 2012 that was made more logical and now you should use a linear tone curve to reproduce the profile's built in tone curve. So to compare use medium in PV 2010 and linear in 2012.

              • 84. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                Correct, the default setting for 2010 is Medium Contrast for the point curve (not Linear).

                 

                Eric

                • 85. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                  areohbee Community Member

                  t.hall1982 wrote:

                   

                  In the skateboard example, the "before adjusting whites" 2012 process version board is noticabley dull compared to the 2010 version (almost just like if I had used recovery in LR3, which I grew to despise and almost never use, becuse of this effect).

                   

                  Right. The auto-highlight recovery comes with a price. Very reminiscent of PV2010 (dullness-wise), and while handling is improved over PV2010, and one can better compensate to some extent, NOTHING is as good as just turning it off would be.

                   

                  A very intricate and delicately balanced finesseing of the highlights/exposure/whites in conjunction with the tone curve is the closest I've been able to come - a compromise, at best.

                   

                  Thanks for chiming in (I hate being the only one )

                   

                  R

                  • 86. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                    TheAnthonyHall Community Member

                    While I appreciate the suggestions, and after some more twiddling around in LR4 and getting a slightly better feel for it, for this particular situation (which isn't isolated; many many photographers use an all white studio setup) LR4 is creating more work and perceiveably more extreme tweeks to get the image where I want it. Granted, with the new controls it seems comes a whole new way of thinking; could be that, but still..

                     

                    ...as suggested by others, I think, at the very least, an option to disable this "auto highlight recovery" would make a whole lot of sense.

                    • 87. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                      thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                      t.hall1982 wrote:

                       

                      While I appreciate the suggestions, and after some more twiddling around in LR4 and getting a slightly better feel for it, for this particular situation (which isn't isolated; many many photographers use an all white studio setup) LR4 is creating more work and perceiveably more extreme tweeks to get the image where I want it.

                      Maybe just once, until you build a preset to adjust the white bkgnd.

                      • 88. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                        TheAnthonyHall Community Member

                        Andrew Rodney wrote:

                         

                        t.hall1982 wrote:

                         

                        While I appreciate the suggestions, and after some more twiddling around in LR4 and getting a slightly better feel for it, for this particular situation (which isn't isolated; many many photographers use an all white studio setup) LR4 is creating more work and perceiveably more extreme tweeks to get the image where I want it.

                        Maybe just once, until you build a preset to adjust the white bkgnd.

                         

                        Hm, maybe... assuming the auto highlight recovery works the same/consistently on every image; which from what I've gathered from a couple other people's posts, it doesn't. We shall see...

                        • 90. Re: Automatic highlight recovery - a double-edged sword.
                          areohbee Community Member

                          MadManChan2000 wrote:

                           

                          Rob, I disagree.  Our feedback so far from photographers is that they are using curves less now, not more.  (If overall people are using curves more in 2012, then we've failed ...)

                           

                          After more practice, I am using curves less.

                           

                          I still use them a fair amount, but the shapes are becoming simpler and can be done more quickly.

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