14 Replies Latest reply on Mar 8, 2012 9:40 AM by MadManChan2000

    LR 4 alters DNG files


      I  purchased LR4 last night - mainly interested in the moire removal tool.  Tried it on two DNG files.  Seemed to remove the colour pattern but not the intensity contours.  BUT, after this test, I opened the DNG files in Photoshop CS5.  In Photoshop, there are now ugly brush patterns where the tool was applied.  And the DNG files now showed a 'last modified' date of today.  Seems like LR4 can corrupt DNG files

        • 1. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
          MadManChan2000 Champion

          I very much doubt that there is any corruption happening.  Perhaps you can post an example DNG file so that I can investigate.  Note that CS5 will not process Lr 4 results, unless you have the ACR 6.7 Release Candidate (RC) installed.  (Do you?)

          • 2. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
            hmmerk Newcomer

            Thanks very much for the reply.  Unfortunately I can't post a DNG file as example.  They are 35 MB in size, and, as soon as I say they appeared to be messed up, I replaced them from backup files.  However, I did reproduce the effect with a third file and have prepared screenshots:




            On the left is the original image as opened in Photoshop CS5.  The center image shows the result of using the Moire reduction tool in LR4.  And on the right is what I see when I then re-open the image in Photoshop CS5 with CR 6.4.  I have no other software besides Photoshop and Lightroom (and CR) that will open DNG files.  Well, there is one other, Apple's QuickLook - it shows no problem - but I suspect it is simply looking at a JPEG preview.


            When I installed LR4 I'm sure I saw a file that claimed Lightroom 3 and Lightroom 4 can co-exist.  And I've seen no error messages when switching back and forth between them.  I presume this means they use different sidecar files.  If that is the case, there should indeed be no problem.  I guess one explanation might be that LR4 simply extends the sidecar file in such a way that PS-CS5/LR3 should not be affected, but in fact some change is made that causes PS-CS5/LR3 to misinterpret the sidecar file.


            I have not tried to upgrade to CR 6.7, but I did try 6.6 which is latest version I could find on the Adobe site.  It resulted in no change.

            • 3. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
              Cornelia-I Champion

              DNGs do not have sidecar files.

              If you write metadata to a DNG, the xmp-part inside the file is updated.


              AFAIK LR3 and LR4 can only coexist if only one of them write metadata back to the files. Otherwise the last update will win. No idea if this could lead to corruption of a file.

              If you have a file format with sidecar-xmp I would also assume that they get overwritten, as long as both programs use the same naming convention <filename before the .ending>.xmp. At least for settings which are common to LR3&4.

              I did not test what LR3 reads from a file developed in LR4 with not-yet-existing settings.


              The general warning applies that 1 file should be member of exactly 1 catalog.

              So if you want to have LR3 and LR4 in parallel, make sure that LR4 is pointing to copies of the DNGs, not the identical files as LR3.

              • 4. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                MadManChan2000 Champion

                ACR 6.6 and earlier (like 6.4) can't render Lr 4 settings.  You need ACR 6.7 RC.

                • 5. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                  Jeff Schewe Rockstar

                  hmmerk wrote:


                  I have not tried to upgrade to CR 6.7, but I did try 6.6 which is latest version I could find on the Adobe site.  It resulted in no change.


                  You should use the ACR 6.7 RC1 to open images from LR4 to Photoshop CS5/5.5. That's the only way of being able to process out images using PV 2012 settings. Note, the ACR 6.7 PV 2012 UI is not there...meaning you can't make any adjustments in ACR from the PV 2012 settings, but 6.7 will render the files from LR4 to Photoshop. It's available at Labs.Adobe.com.

                  • 6. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                    hmmerk Newcomer

                    Well, it just gets more "interesting".


                    I should have indicated earlier that after I replaced the LR4-affected DNG files with fresh copies from back-ups, both Photoshop CS5 (and/or Lightroom 3) and Lightroom 4 would open the DNG files correctly.  That is, Photoshop CS5 and Lightroom 3 see the file with no correction for moire or brush strokes, and LightRoom 4 sees (and exports) the files with moire corrected.


                    Thanks Jeff for directing me to CameraRaw 6.7.  I installed that, but it sees the files just the same as 6.6 (and earlier).  That is, using CameraRaw 6.7, the images show the brushstrokes and no moire correction!

                    • 7. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                      MadManChan2000 Champion

                      Can you please provide an example DNG file with the (embedded) moire adjustment settings?  That way I can try to reproduce the issue internally.  You can use YouSendIt, Dropbox, etc. with madmanchan2000@yahoo.com.




                      • 8. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                        Jeff Schewe Rockstar

                        hmmerk wrote:


                        Thanks Jeff for directing me to CameraRaw 6.7.  I installed that, but it sees the files just the same as 6.6 (and earlier).  That is, using CameraRaw 6.7, the images show the brushstrokes and no moire correction!


                        The only other thing to ask is are you 100% sure that the moire settings was the ONLY setting you applied? Is it at all possible you had other controls adjusted in the same brush pin or additional pins with adjustments that would transfer over?


                        As far as I know, if you use one of the new tools in PV 2012 in LR4 and then go to PV 2010 in ACR, only those settings that can transfer will move over.


                        Regarding using moire only on a brush stroke and then opening the DNG in ACR 6.6, no, I'm not seeing anything unusual. The moire is not gone...but it looks exactly the same as the original before the moire brush...if I open the image in ACR 6.7, I get a warning that the selected image uses PV 2012 and in order to make any modifications to the basic or local controls I have to convert to PV 2010. If I don't convert and zoom in, the PV 2012 moire removal is there...

                        • 9. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                          hmmerk Newcomer

                          Thanks all!


                          Have sent an affected DNG file to Eric along with system details.


                          I certainly tried to make sure that only the moire tool was being used in the test, although I probably did adjust exposure, blacks whites etc. on a global basis (not brushed in).  And I confirm that the file exported from LR4 does not have the obvious brush strokes seen in Photoshop CS5 or Lightroom 3.  The exported file looks just like the preview in LR4.


                          Except for the initial import into LR4, I am not seeing any process version warnings at any time as I go back and forth between the various applications.  And I did confirm after installing CR 6.7 that it was indeed the version of CR being used by Photoshop.


                          Behaviour has been consistent with three different files - though all are from the same camera (Leica M9).  (I'd have tried more files by now if this had not happened with the first two!  I'm a bit scared to use LR4 for anything that matters at this stage.)


                          I cannot absolutely conform that I'm set up to use external .xmp files - I forget where that setting is - but the fact that I can replace the 'damaged' DNG file with another copy of the original and LR4 still does the right things with the file (removes the colour fringing aspect of the moire) certainly suggests it is not relying on information within the DNG file.  I've also checked to see if LR4 could have tracked the file to the trash - but there are no files of the right name in the trash.

                          • 10. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                            hmmerk Newcomer

                            I should also add that I tried the Moire tool on a Kodak .DCS raw file.  LR4 did not alter the file in any way.  It continues to open in Photoshop CS5 just as it did and the file 'last modified' date has not been changed.

                            • 11. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                              MadManChan2000 Champion

                              Thanks; I'll take a look. 


                              BTW, the reason for the 'last modified' date changing in the case of the DNG is because XMP settings are stored within the DNG itself (in the header), so saving changes or updating metadata involves changing the timestamp.  In the case of non-DNG files like the Kodak .DCS, changes to metadata or settings are stored in a sidecar XMP file, which is why the 'last modified' date of the .DCS file doesn't change.



                              • 12. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                                MadManChan2000 Champion

                                I studied the file (thanks Harold) and have the following to share:


                                1.  The DNG file is not corrupted.


                                2.  The DNG file does contain incorrect (more accurately, stale) local correction adjustment values for the brushed regions.  The stored values indicate an increase in Exposure, which is why the brush strokes appear visible in older versions of ACR (like 6.3 or 6.4) which support PV 2003/2010, but not PV 2012.


                                3.  The reason for the incorrect/stale values being recorded for the PV 2003/2010 settings is because of a bug in Lr 4.  I will work with the team to get this fixed.


                                4.  In the meantime, to remove the visible "brush stroke" effects, you can either clear the local corrections, or click on an individual pin (once the Adjustment Brush tool is selected) and reset Exposure to 0. 


                                5.  You will not encounter this problem if you open the image from Lr 4 directly into ACR 6.7 RC. 


                                6.  The reason the problem didn't go away in this case when you tried ACR 6.7 RC, is because you already saved the image settings from an earlier version of ACR 6.  That is, you did this path: Lr 4 -> ACR 6.3/6.4 -> ACR 6.7 RC.  When you saved the image settings (e.g., by clicking "Done") in ACR 6.3/6.4, this threw out your moire adjustments.  This is because older ACR versions don't understand the newer settings (e.g., moire).

                                • 13. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                                  hmmerk Newcomer

                                  Many thanks, Eric, for the explanation of the issue and how to work around it, and also for initiating a full correction of the matter.


                                  Just one or two things I don't fully understand yet.  Why does LR4 still do the correct Moire reduction even after I replace the DNG file with an earlier copy?  I presume this means LR also stores the develop settings in another location besides the DNG file.  My memory on this is fuzzy, but I have a vague recollection that with an earlier version of Lightroom, I had the choice of storing the develop and other infor either in the DNG file or in a separate .xmp file.  My recollection is that I chose the separate .xmp file option.  I can't find such a setting in LR3 or LR4, nor is it explained in a book I have on LR2 - but then the book does not explain .xmp files at all.


                                  Again, thanks for resolving this!


                                  - Harold

                                  • 14. Re: LR 4 alters DNG files
                                    MadManChan2000 Champion

                                    Hi Harold,


                                    The reason is that Lr always stores a copy of the metadata (including your adjustments) in the catalog file itself.  The database, in other words.  The catalog's stored metadata & adjustments are what is used to process the image in Develop. 


                                    Hence, when you replace the external DNG file on disk with a backup copy, the embedded XMP settings in the DNG will be different, but that doesn't affect Lr because Lr will be using its internal catalog settings to process the image.


                                    Of course, the thing that's probably going thru your head is that catalog-internal settings and external XMP settings (e.g., sidecars, or XMP embedded in DNGs) can get out of sync.  This is true.  When this happens, it is indicated with a metadata bade warning icon in the Library module.  Syncing between catalog settings and external files can be done manually, or automatically.  To do so manually, you use the "Save Metadata to File" (cmd-S) and "Read Metadata from File" options from the Metadata menu in the Library module.  To do so automatically, visit the Catalog Settings -> Metadata section and check the "Automatically write changes into XMP" box; note that this automatically syncs changes made in Lr 4 to the embedded/sidecar XMP (i.e., catalog -> external), but not the other way around.



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