31 Replies Latest reply: Mar 8, 2012 2:55 PM by mike_mike_motorbike RSS

    AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage

    FilmLadd

      After importing a few Red 5k Epic files into an After Effects project and then hitting "save," "save as," or "increment save," AE freezes up on the save dialogue. The Save dialogue box comes up, then freezes. After a few seconds, it goes "white" and turns stupid.

       

      Then After Effects must be killed via the Task Manager.

       

      The file IS saved, but After Effects must be killed and restarted to continue working. As you can imagine, this makes the After Effects workflow completely unusable.

       

      I have tried the following, to no avail:

       

      1) Turning on / off multiprocessing

      2) Adding / reducing memory allowed to AE

      3) Enabling-disabling Open GL

      4) Re-installing Epic plug-ins from Adobe Labs. They work fine for Premiere, I can edit and save all day long no problem.

      5) I am saving to a solid-state drive, but have also tried saving to other locations - sata, esata, USB drives. No help.

       

      I'm on an i7 PC, 16 gigs of ram, Win 7 64 bit.

        • 1. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
          mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

          I'm getting this too.  Just sayin' you're not crazy.

          • 2. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
            Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

            Hi guys,

             

            Haven't heard of this issue internally, so let's start trimming down the variables. Questions:

             

            1. At what point during the save process exactly does the hang occur? When the Save dialog appears? When you press the Save button? Clicking in the Save window to navigate, or to change name, or another action? Other trigger?
            2. Had the project been saved prior to the R3D files being added?
            3. Did you edit the R3D settings in AE before the save?
            4. If you start a new, blank AE project and try to save it, does the problem occur?
            5. Do you import any other files or take any other actions before the problem occurs? ie., Can you reproduce the problem with a new project, add the R3D files, and save?
            6. Have you installed the AE 10.5.1 update? Did you do this before or after you installed the RED Epic plug-ins? (If you installed 10.5.1 after you installed the RED plug-in, you'll need to reinstall the RED plug-in again. The update doesn't contain the RED Epic plug-in and will overwrite any existing RED plug-in with the version that AE 10.5 installed.)
            7. Have you tried rebuilding the AE preferences? C:\Users\[userName]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\After Effects\10.5  Close AE, throw those files in the trash, or to a temp folder, and restart AE. If that doesn't help, you can put the old files back.
            8. Anything unusual about your system setup? Network-based user accounts? Applications installed to a drive other than C:?
            9. Anything fun or interesting about the configuration or source of the R3D files? Firmware version on the camera? Are they being processed by REDCINE-X before you import them into AE?
            • 3. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
              mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

              hey Tim, thanks for getting into this...

               

              1.  I get a dropout either when i start draggin and droppin files into comps, or when i save

              2. yep

              3. yes

              4. not at first, but once you dive in it starts

              5. it's reproducable by continuing to work until it seems to start to degrade and become more flakey.  I go back and re-import all my files, replace them and it works again.

               

              6. yes all up do date.

              7. ya, i have to re-build the prefs a lot.

              8. the only wildcard on my end is a sometimes flakey SATA external drive (but i got the errors today with FW800)

              9. Not totally sure abotu this one.  Novice cameraman (with the epic), so a possibilty.

              • 4. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                Thanks, Mike. I need clarification on #4.

                 

                1. Quit AE and start it again.

                2. Save the default project without doing anything.

                 

                Does it fail?

                 

                I expect the answer is no. From here we build up- what is the trigger? What needs to happen in order for the problem to occur? Being "flakey" doesn't help us isolate the cause. Is the trigger using R3D files? Is it using R3D files with modified settings? Is it working in a project using R3D files for a long time, performing RAM previews and such?

                 

                That last one could indicate a performance-related problem. Minding that R3D files are bloody huge, especially the 5K variety, the system is likely maxxing out RAM while you're working in AE. That could be the trigger. Do you monitor system performance while this is happening? Do you ever try purging AE's memory before save?

                • 5. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                  mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                  hey Tim,

                   

                  I'm just using the term flakey to mean randomly giving a warning about going offline, but sometimes being ok, other times giving zero denomination errors, sometimes that resolve themslevs, sometimes go on for infinity.

                   

                  It most often happens during a save.

                   

                  if i quit and restart it seems ok, but if anything has gone offline, it stays offline and then the R3D files become unreadable and can't be replaced, only re-imortred and reconnected.

                   

                  ram previews seem ok, but like i said, sometimes it jsut happens when you do "something..."  move the file etc.

                   

                  i purge all the time.  I could try doing that more often. maybe that is the case as i'm working in 5k though i have 32 Gigs of ram... hmmm.. good thought.  let me try that one.

                  • 6. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                    mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                    just now quit and re-opneed after getting zero denomination file errors... when i re-opened, 7 files went offline and must be manually re-connected.

                    • 7. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                      Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                      So now we're breaking down the issue. You're actually having multiple problems:

                       

                      1. R3D files going offline.

                      2. Hangs on save, which may or may not be related to #1 existing at the time of save.

                       

                      So the interesting question is why #1 is happening. Does your external SATA really loose the connection that often? You're not moving the files on disk while AE has a project open that references them, do you?

                       

                      Regarding purge, specifically try purging before a save. If the root of #2 is a lack of memory, that should clear the room AE needs for the save action.

                      • 8. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                        mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                        Hey Tim,

                         

                        I at first thought it was the SATA connection but it's Ben happening just as much since connecting via FW800.

                         

                        I'll try the memory purges later today. What causes the zero denomination errors?  They all seem to happen together...

                        • 9. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                          Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                          Zero denominator errors have a number of root causes. Context for the error is more important than the error itself. If you're getting a string of the same error, it probably is a series of multiple, similar failures. In this case, it sounds like failure to access multiple files.

                           

                          Are you only getting these errors in a single project file that you've been working on, or have these problems persisted across project files? Another possible cause for the R3D files going missing is that the project file itself has become damaged.

                          • 10. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                            mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                            Hey Tim,


                            It's still doing it.  Now basically any time i save it konks out.  then when i try and reload i get the zero denomination errors.  Then when i quit and re-open, it says the kind of file i'm trying to import cannot be opened, as it may be in an unsupported format ( 86 :: 1)

                             

                            Maybe the work file is corrupt, but most of it works and i've twice now re-imported all the necessary files.  Rebuilding the project file is a weeks worth of work.


                            Transcoding seems to be my only option.   There are more than a few people with this issue in the RED forums.  Frankly, there are so few people using the EPIC it's really hard to know what's going on...

                             

                            Thanks for all your help so far Tim.


                            Mike

                            • 11. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                              Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                              A couple of thoughts...

                               

                              When you installed the RED Epic plug-ins, you backed up the original versions and copied over them in your After Effects directories, as per the installation instructions, yes? Please go into the After Effects directory and make sure that you do not have 2 copies of the ImporterRed files.

                               

                              If the project file has been damaged, it may be recoverable.  Create a new, blank project, then import your existing project. Continue working from that.

                               

                              If the problem still occurs, the file references themselves may be damaged and could continue to fail even with that solution. Try this:

                              1. Offline all of your R3D files- unplug the drive, launch the AE project (you should get a warning that X number of files are offline). Save As into a new project file.

                              2. Create a new, blank project and import that project into it.

                              3. In this new project, relink the R3D files.

                              • 12. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                Thanks Tim,

                                 

                                I only see one copy of the importer. 


                                One thought... is there a proper way to import the RED files?  I've been draggin and dropping the .R3D files.  Is there a better way to import the files perhaps?

                                 

                                 

                                I'm going to try offlineing the files as you suggested.

                                • 13. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                  Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                  mike_mike_motorbike wrote:

                                   

                                  One thought... is there a proper way to import the RED files?  I've been draggin and dropping the .R3D files.  Is there a better way to import the files perhaps?

                                  Nope. Doesn't matter.

                                  • 14. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                    mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                    what about if all the .R3D files are imported or just the first of the sequence?  I've had the crashes either way.

                                    • 15. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                      mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                      Hey Tim,


                                      Still getting the same error when i reconnect the .R3D files...  It gives me the warnings, but they're online anyway.

                                      • 16. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                        Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                        Hi Mike. Not ignoring this, but kind of busy, also snow and ice in Seattle adds an unwanted complication to life.

                                         

                                        Is it always the same R3D files that go offline? Or is it different any time? Any rhythm to it, such as the most recently added, or only spanned clips?

                                         

                                        Any chance you can send me the AEP file? May need to have an eng tear into the project bits to see if there's damage inside.

                                        • 17. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                          mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                          no worries tim, I you and Todd are really great at helping trouble shoot.  I'm sure this stuff is as frustrating for you guys as it is for us....

                                           

                                          There's no pattern for me.  It just seems like if it's in the file long enough, it goes offline.  Maybe it's a RAM issue?

                                           

                                          I've since transcoded all the files to PRORES just so i can get the job done!

                                           

                                          BUT one thing i noticed, somtimes AE will stop recognizing the muiltible files, so an R3D file that's in a few segments gets chopped to just the first one and looks like a much shorter clip in the comp.

                                          • 18. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                            mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                            Hey tim,

                                             

                                            Here's another person having the same issue. Scroll to the newest post. Sounds like my problem, and like a RAM issue??

                                             

                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/4154361#4154361

                                            • 19. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                              Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                              Thanks for the links. I invited Anthony to join us over here so we can keep the conversation consolidated.

                                               

                                              Can you tell me more about the R3D files? Frame rate, frame size, firmware version, specific changes applied in the R3D Settings dialog, etc. A screenshot or two might suffice.

                                               

                                              Also, it would really be helpful if I could get a copy of your project file. I don't know if that's possible for you; I don't need the footage, I just need to be able to look at the structure of the file.

                                              • 20. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                                Hey guys,

                                                 

                                                Dave McGavran, one of our engineering managers, posted over on that RED thread.  You should check it out.

                                                http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65374-After-Effects-5-5-Unsupported-Format-err or/page4

                                                • 21. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                  AntonyM6 Community Member

                                                  Hi Tim, thanks for the invite to this link.

                                                   

                                                  >Can you tell me more about the R3D files?

                                                   

                                                  Frame rate = 25fps

                                                  frame size = 4kHD = 3840x2160

                                                  firmware version = 2.0.5

                                                  specific changes applied in the R3D Settings dialog, etc. = No changes.

                                                   

                                                  Recode = 8:1

                                                   


                                                  • 22. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                    AntonyM6 Community Member

                                                    Tim,

                                                     

                                                    One thing which has helped me get a bit further relates to this comment of yours:

                                                    "When you installed the RED Epic plug-ins, you backed up the original versions and copied over them in your After Effects directories, as per the installation instructions, yes? Please go into the After Effects directory and make sure that you do not have 2 copies of the ImporterRed files."

                                                     

                                                    The installation instructions say to make a backup copy of the original files. But they don't specify where to make the backup... or more importantly... where to NOT make the backup copy.

                                                    Do NOT make the backup in the same directory.

                                                    This was the first thing which messed me up.

                                                    Since I moved my backups to a different directory, the import and display now works.

                                                     

                                                    What still isn't working is Warp Stabilizer.

                                                    It sticks on "Initialising" step 1/2.

                                                    I even left it for 36 hours, and it was still saying that.

                                                     

                                                    Any ideas?

                                                     

                                                    Thanks,

                                                    Antony

                                                    • 23. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                      Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                                      Hi Antony - Glad to know that you've solved the R3D problem. (Because of that, I owe Dave McGavran a cookie.) I don't have any immediate advice for your Warp Stabilizer issue. Please start a new thread in the After Effects forum about this, if you haven't done so already.

                                                       

                                                      Mike - Have you tried the workaround I linked to in my last post? Also from an earlier post, is there any chance you could share the project file with me so that we can look under the hood? Please DM me.

                                                      • 24. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                        AntonyM6 Community Member

                                                        Hi Tim,

                                                         

                                                        Sorry, I should have posted an update... I have fixed the Warp Stabilizer problem.

                                                        I was given the clue on another forum, but had to play around a bit.

                                                        The answer is to use the importers from Lightroom 4 beta.

                                                        Here are the full installation instructions (for Windows users. It may be different on a Mac):

                                                         

                                                        1. ) Make sure you have installed the latest updates, so Premiere is at least CS5.5.2
                                                        2. ) download and install LightRoom 4
                                                        3. ) create a backup folder (NOT under C:\Program Files\Adobe)
                                                        4. ) create 2 subdirectories in your backup folder: \AE and \Premiere

                                                         

                                                        5. ) copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\Plug-ins\Common\ImporterRED.prm to your backup folder\Premiere

                                                        6. ) copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\32\ImporterREDServer.exe to your backup folder\Premiere

                                                         

                                                        7. ) copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe After Effects CS5.5\Support Files\(Media Core plug-ins)\Common\ ImporterRED.prm to your backup folder\AE

                                                        8. ) copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe After Effects CS5.5\Support Files\32\ImporterREDServer.exe to your backup folder\AE

                                                         

                                                        9. ) now copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4\Support\DynamicLinkMediaServer\dynamiclinkmedias erver\1.0\Plug-ins\Common\ImporterRED.prm to  both:
                                                        C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\Plug-ins\Common
                                                        and
                                                        C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe After Effects CS5.5\Support Files\(Media Core plug-ins)\Common

                                                         

                                                        10. ) copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4\Support\DynamicLinkMediaServer\dynamiclinkmedias erver\1.0\ImporterREDServer.exe to both:
                                                        C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\32
                                                        and
                                                        C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe After Effects CS5.5\Support Files\32

                                                         

                                                        11. ) launch Premiere CS 5.5.2...you will now notice that NONE of your R3D are loading anymore....don't panic! Close Premiere and follow the next step

                                                        12. ) copy your original backup folder\Premiere\ImporterRED.prm and replace the new (broken) one in C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\Plug-ins\Common

                                                        13. ) launch Premiere. You can now load your Epic files with audio support!

                                                         

                                                        14. ) launch After Effects CS 5.5...you will get an error at startup complaining about the PRM file....don't panic! Close AE and follow the next step

                                                        15. ) copy your original backup folder\AE\ImporterRED.prm and replace the new (broken) one in C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe After Effects CS5.5\Support Files\(Media Core plug-ins)\Common

                                                        16. ) launch AE. You can now load your Epic files and use effects such as Warp Stabilizer!

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Regards,

                                                        Antony

                                                        • 25. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                          mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                                          Hey Tim!

                                                           

                                                          Haven't tried the workaround yet.  The instructions were PC only as far as i could tell and i've been busy, but i'll try and translate to mac.  I'll DM you the file asap.

                                                          • 26. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                            Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                                            Hi Mike - For the workaround, you'll need to extrapolate the instructions for Mac a little bit. The installation instructions for the Epic plug-in are your basic guide, just replace the files from the Epic plug-in download with the ones provided by the Lightroom 4 beta. Finding those files might be the trick, and I really can't help you there (there's good reason why neither Dave McGavran or I are forthcoming about explicit instruction; suffice to say this an "at your own risk" sort of thing and we're not even sure if it will work), but the files will have the same names and be inside of the Lightroom application package.

                                                             

                                                            I look forward to seeing the project file. Thanks.

                                                            • 27. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                              mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                                              Hey Tim,

                                                              So I ended up sending my Esata card and raids back to Caldigit for service, and they've since sent them back fixed.  In the meantime, i put everything on my internal RAID and it all seems to be working...  Could this whole thing be because the link was being corrupted when the Esata would click off and on?

                                                               

                                                              Mike

                                                              • 28. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                                Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                                                mike_mike_motorbike wrote:

                                                                Could this whole thing be because the link was being corrupted when the Esata would click off and on?

                                                                Absolutely. If access to the drive is interrupted when AE is trying to reference one of the R3D files, a variety of failures could occur. At best, the read fails and then AE offlines the file. At worst, AE hangs while waiting for the system to return a result from the read request, which is normally a routine operation.

                                                                 

                                                                If the esata card was flakey during a write operation, when AE was saving your project, count yourself lucky that the project itself wasn't corrupted beyond recovery.

                                                                 

                                                                Glad things are working for you now.

                                                                • 29. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                                  mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                                                  thanks Tim, sorry for ringing the alarm bell...  Now if only that was responsible for my crashes when scrubbing on the puppet tool!

                                                                  • 30. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                                    Tim Kurkoski Adobe Employee

                                                                    mike_mike_motorbike wrote:

                                                                    Now if only that was responsible for my crashes when scrubbing on the puppet tool!

                                                                    I will choose to ignore this under the assumption that you have created a new forum thread for this problem.

                                                                     

                                                                    (If my assumption is false, you have a new item on your to-do list.)

                                                                    • 31. Re: AE Crashes on Save w/Red Epic Footage
                                                                      mike_mike_motorbike Community Member

                                                                      haha, ya i deserved that.. I'll post right now.