34 Replies Latest reply: Mar 31, 2012 10:26 AM by joe bloe premiere RSS

    Prores CS5

    GeoffVane

      Can anyone play Prores on PC with Premiere?

      After installing the decoder, Quicktime player can play those files but Adobe prgs won't.

      I can't use the footage that cameramen come up with.

        • 1. Re: Prores CS5
          Harm Millaard Community Member

          I can't use the footage that cameramen come up with.

           

          For your peace of mind, cameramen don't come up with Prores material. There is no camera that records in Prores. Only some half-wit MAC users convert to Prores without benefit and cause you all the trouble.

           

          Tell these cameramen to give you the source material, without them mucking things up. If they continue in this workflow, converting to Prores, you will have a SNAFU experience.

          • 2. Re: Prores CS5
            GeoffVane Community Member

            Sorry Harm. Tell that to my cameraman.

            He has a modular steadicam system with a Atomos Samurai recorder. It's native Prores 422.

            And I lately doubt if Mac users are truly half-wit; my super expensive PC is a piece of tish.

            It's just stupid that installed codecs don't show up in all programs.

            I'm not interested in the why of it all. I just need direct solutions.

            • 3. Re: Prores CS5
              joe bloe premiere Community Member

              *Avid DNxHD codec is optional upgrade - available Q1, 2012.

              http://www.atomos.com/samurai/

               

              I'm sorry that your super expensive PC is a piece of tish.

              • 4. Re: Prores CS5
                GeoffVane Community Member

                I know, the DNxHD is released for the Samurai but word goes it's expensive.

                 

                Thanks for the friendly words. :-)

                • 5. Re: Prores CS5
                  joe bloe premiere Community Member

                  £89 ex. VAT |  €99 ex. VAT | US$149

                   

                  They call it an UPGRADE for a reason.

                   

                  • 6. Re: Prores CS5
                    SAFEHARBOR11 MVP

                    Both CS5 and CS5.5 will play ProRes without issue IF there is only 2-channel audio. ProRes clips with 4-channel audio will NOT play in CS5, and I believe the first version of CS5.5 was an issue as well, later fixed with an update so they do now work in CS5.5.

                     

                    As Adobe is now offering a FREE update to CS6 to anyone purchasing any CS5.5 product right now, might be a good reason to upgrade at this time.

                     

                    Thanks

                     

                    Jeff Pulera

                    Safe Harbor Computers

                    • 7. Re: Prores CS5
                      GeoffVane Community Member

                      Point me to this news please:

                      As Adobe is now offering a FREE update to CS6 to anyone purchasing any CS5.5 product right now, might be a good reason to upgrade at this time.

                       

                      I can't find that anywhere on the Adobe site. (as ususal)

                      • 8. Re: Prores CS5
                        SAFEHARBOR11 MVP
                        • 9. Re: Prores CS5
                          Jeff Bellune ACP

                          He has a modular steadicam system with a Atomos Samurai recorder. It's native Prores 422.

                          See if he also recorded to the camera's media.  If he did, use that.

                           

                          -Jeff

                          • 10. Re: Prores CS5
                            GeoffVane Community Member

                            Jeff P: thanks that one is well hidden. I hope it counts in Holland too; they always have a different story for me on the phone.

                             

                            Jeff B:

                            Yeah but his cam's quality is less and I need to composit and tweak a lot.

                             

                            6.0 may be an option, although I really doubt if it's all worth it with a Matrox board.

                            Them Matroxes sure sick the ducks: nothing but crashes all day.

                            • 11. Re: Prores CS5
                              Jason Britski Community Member

                              The camera we use here at work is an Arri Alexa & it records as ProRes 422 (HQ), ProRes 4444, and as raw files.

                              • 12. Re: Prores CS5
                                Harm Millaard Community Member

                                Look here for specs: http://www.arri.de/camera/digital_cameras/cameras/camera_details.html?product=9&subsection =technical_data&cHash=162d1b0527fd98e5f204488ab9cc7257

                                 

                                I suggest you use either Arriraw, HD-SDI or DNxHD and stay away from Prores.

                                • 13. Re: Prores CS5
                                  Jason Britski Community Member

                                  We have the specs.

                                  Not my decision.

                                  Decision to shoot ProRes HQ was made before production began based on what the production team wanted, the post facilty's needs for conforming the masters, & what each broadcaster wanted.

                                   

                                  In either case, that camera is an example of one that records in ProRes.

                                  • 14. Re: Prores CS5
                                    Jim Curtis Community Member

                                    Yes, it's not helpful when people tell you to change your shooting format after the fact.  Since Jeff Pulera touched on what may be your issue: 2 tracks OK where you have 4 tracks, why don't you try something like this:

                                     

                                    QT Pro has the ability to add or delete tracks from QT Movies.  It's under Control-J, Edit Attributes.  Why not make a copy of your file, open it in QT Pro, delete two audio tracks, save it, and then see if Pr will let you use them? 

                                     

                                    If so, you could make another copy, delete the other two tracks (and maybe the video also), and get access to the remaining two audio tracks. 

                                     

                                    Worth a shot, maybe.

                                    • 15. Re: Prores CS5
                                      Jon Chappell Community Member

                                      A lot of productions shoot to ProRes with the Alexa simply because it's the cheapest option. ARRIRAW requires an external recorder such as the Codex (pricey!) and DNxHD is a paid upgrade.

                                      • 16. Re: Prores CS5
                                        Harm Millaard Community Member

                                        I understand that problem, but ProRes limits you effectively to a MAC environment (pricey!), so the price of of the Codex or DNxHD is easily recovered by staying away from MAC's.

                                        • 17. Re: Prores CS5
                                          Jon Chappell Community Member

                                          The Codex is $30-60k depending on the options you choose. I'm not sure of the rental price but I know that they couldn't justify the cost for the project I'm currently working on.

                                           

                                          But  it would be easy enough to offline on a PC in the codec of your choice and then use a Mac for the online.

                                          • 18. Re: Prores CS5
                                            Jim Curtis Community Member

                                            A fully-featured HP / Windows system isn't that much cheaper than one for Mac, when you factor in monitors, RAID, software and most of all, maintenance and downtime.  One could easily counter that the Windows platform is not worth using because it doesn't handle ProRes, the defacto standardized codec for post.  Windows users have to jump hoops to work around that staggering shortcoming, or are forced to work in AVI uncompressed, which exponentially increases storage costs, or pay for Cineform, and then deal with collaborators who are also too cheap to buy the software.

                                             

                                            ProRes is a fact of life in post.  Camera spex drive post workflows.  Only a few times in my 30 year career have I had shooters call me before they shot to ask me what codec I want.  They just use their favorite camera, and drop off the media.  I'm not going to drive business away by telling my clients I'm too cheap to buy a system that can handle all formats.  If I have to buy or rent a Sony disk player to work with XDCam 422 HD, so be it.  That opens the door to work with anybody else using that format.  I can take the work from the editors who are too cheap, and will turn away business because they "can't" do something.

                                            • 19. Re: Prores CS5
                                              joe bloe premiere Community Member
                                              ...ProRes, the defacto standardized codec for post.

                                              Huh?  I wasn't notified about that!

                                              Only a few times in my 30 year career have I had shooters call me before they shot to ask me what codec I want.

                                              I always coordinate with the shooter, if for no other reason than to

                                              get the proper frame rate media... and codec / format is always discussed.

                                              • 20. Re: Prores CS5
                                                Jim Curtis Community Member

                                                Everybody's business is a bit different.  I'm an independent work-from-home editor, who has been taking business away from pricey boutiques with cappucino machines and pool tables ever since I hung my shingle.  I used to work at those places.  I still do hired gun work from time to time.  Almost all of them have at least one Mac, if they're not all on Macs, as we saw a lot of business shift to FCP7 several years ago.

                                                 

                                                And from what I've seen, ProRes is not only the defacto post codec, it's close to being the defacto acquisition codec since the introduction of the KiPro, and other recorders, like Cinedeck.  DNxHD will never be as versatile intermediate codec for motion graphics until Avid unties it from standardized frame sizes, or somebody comes up with an open-source, cross platform, visually lossless codec. 

                                                 

                                                One of the few efficient ways to deliver a 3000 x 1000 pixel movie for a convention video is on ProRes.  DNxHD can't do it.  Uncompressed would be impossible on the playout systems.  And so on.  I've had jobs spec ProRes as the delivery format, period.

                                                 

                                                A lot of people on this list are in a sheltered environment, their needs are fixed, and their capabilities are limited.  If you want to accept all comers, and take on any job, you'd better be able to handle ProRes, and you'd better have a Mac or two in your arsenal.

                                                 

                                                YMMV.

                                                • 21. Re: Prores CS5
                                                  joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                  After 18 years of working in post houses, and freelancing from home

                                                  (like you) for the last nine years, I have NEVER edited with or delivered

                                                  in what you claim as the 'de-facto' post production codec.

                                                   

                                                  Maybe I'm just living in a sheltered environment.

                                                  • 22. Re: Prores CS5
                                                    Jim Curtis Community Member

                                                    What do you deliver, Joe?

                                                     

                                                    I do a fair amount of convention work, in addition to corporate, TV ads, and occasional long-form features and documentaries.  The convention playout system operators have lately been requiring ProRes.  And if I'm on a team working with other editors and post-houses, and my work will be compiled onto a show reel, ProRes is almost always the delivery format.  The rest of the time, I'm delivering to DG FastChannel (SD spots: MPEG2), DVDs or BR, or web formats.

                                                     

                                                    So, maybe I should have qualified it with "in my market."  But, without the capablity of using ProRes, my business would suffer tangibly.

                                                     

                                                    I can't imagine suffering through a feature edit natively editing H.264.  Without an intraframe codec, I would suffer.

                                                     

                                                    Do motion graphics work?  You may need a 10-bit intermediate codec for your 1000 x1000 pixel pre-renders.  ProRes 4444 is an excellent choice.

                                                     

                                                    If you think there's a better codec for intermediates and delivery, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

                                                    • 23. Re: Prores CS5
                                                      joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                      First of all, the post houses I used to work for on national accounts are all now boarded up.

                                                      I like to think it's guys like you and me that put them out of business.

                                                       

                                                      Most of my work is doing broadcast ads with DG delivery.

                                                      I also do a whole lot of corporate / marketing and convention video work,

                                                      but without any specialized delivery formats requiring ProRes (yet).

                                                      I almost never have the time to spend 3-4 months working on indies or documentaries,

                                                      but when I have, ProRes has never been in the equation.

                                                       

                                                      I rarely collaborate on any projects with other editors...

                                                      but when I do, I am the one who defines the workflow.

                                                       

                                                      I'm not going to argue the merits of one codec over another.

                                                      The fact is there is no overarching media codec or workflow.

                                                      One can have their own preferences and / or limitations as defined by their hardware,

                                                      but there are many ways to achieve professional results... including using ProRes.

                                                      • 24. Re: Prores CS5
                                                        lasvideo Community Member

                                                        I have used Prores for many years as a mastering codec, both at facilities and from my home studio. I decided to switch to DNxHD given Apples current decisions reagarding thier products. It has been working great as a mastering codec with PrP.

                                                        • 25. Re: Prores CS5
                                                          joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                          You probably worked in mac-based facilities.

                                                           

                                                          In my years using AVID FC, MC, Symphony, DS,

                                                          Discreet Fire, Flame, Inferno and Smoke I never encountered ProRes.

                                                           

                                                          But, I agree on DNxHD... it's a great cross-platform codec.

                                                          • 26. Re: Prores CS5
                                                            lasvideo Community Member

                                                            Yes, if if I was using Prores for mastering, than I am obviously in a Mac based situation. 

                                                            • 27. Re: Prores CS5
                                                              Jim Curtis Community Member

                                                              Joe, I could tell from reading a lot of your posts here that you know what you're doing.  I find myself in agreement with you on most occasions, including this one.

                                                               

                                                              While I like to think along the same lines about us putting some expensive post houses out of business, I was helped in large part by Adobe, FCP and AJA.

                                                               

                                                              Also agree that there are many ways to get pro results. 

                                                               

                                                              But, I learned long ago that it rarely pays to tell a client you can't do something*, or can't handle some format.  They'll just go somewhere else.

                                                               

                                                              * The exceptions being, "Can you edit my feature for $1000?"  I can't do that.

                                                              • 28. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                                I should have said 'FCP-based facilities'.

                                                                 

                                                                All of the AVID products I used except the DS ran on a mac.

                                                                • 29. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                  joe bloe premiere Community Member
                                                                  ...it rarely pays to tell a client you can't do something*, or can't handle some format.

                                                                  I never do that.

                                                                  I find a way to work it out, it just has never included ProRes.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                    Jim Curtis Community Member

                                                                    Just wait until one of your clients shoots on the Sony F4 (or whatever it's called) with a Cinedeck, or Alexa.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                      joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                                      I recently had 45 minutes of HDV8 footage dumped on me that was unreadable in Premiere.

                                                                      I didn't balk, or alert the client.  I found a way to flip it to a usable format and forged ahead.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                        Jim Curtis Community Member

                                                                        Where did that come from, The Balkans? 

                                                                        • 33. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                          EditorPete Community Member

                                                                          Hi Joe,

                                                                          What shoots on that? Can you enlighten us on what you used to flip it???? Just curious.

                                                                           

                                                                          By the way, you said you ran all those systems (not DS) on a Mac and never ran into ProRes....you lucky dog.

                                                                          I ran a DS (windows)  for years and for the last 3 of it, everyone came in with ProRes. Guess it just goes to show ya......you can never under estimate your clients needs....as Jim wisely stated.

                                                                           

                                                                          Pete

                                                                          • 34. Re: Prores CS5
                                                                            joe bloe premiere Community Member

                                                                            What shoots on that? Can you enlighten us on what you used to flip it???? Just curious.

                                                                            It was a rookie corporate employee who shot the footage of a

                                                                            company's operations for a marketing piece that I was editing.

                                                                            They didn't have the budget for a professional shoot,

                                                                            so they did it internally with their 'Media Department'.

                                                                             

                                                                            I used the WinFF video converter.

                                                                            It was slow and laborious, but I got decent results.

                                                                            I ran a DS (windows)  for years and for the last 3 of it, everyone came in with ProRes.

                                                                            Maybe it's because I got out of post houses in 2004 ahead of the predominance of FCP-based editing.

                                                                            Also, 99.9% of my material was delivered on tape from film transfer houses.