13 Replies Latest reply: Apr 2, 2012 12:24 PM by medeamajic RSS

    Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?

    fmmisa

      Hi Premiere Gurus...

       

      I'm able to use the Premiere titler - to create a mask - and then the Luma setting on the TrackMatte effect to isloate a region of video (which I've duplicated over the original) which I'm interested in.

      This - per many online tutorials/videos I've found.

       

      Question: Why - Can I not use the mask/"output" from the ThreeWayColorCorrector to do the same thing ?

      Image - I duplicate the clip - drop the ThreeWayColorCorrector - use the "Secondary Color" mode - to isolate a persons shape (from an interview clip);  the background is black... the hairline and body outline of interviewee is white.

      I get white/black - because I've switched the output of the ThreeWayColorCorrector to "Mask"...

       

      Now - When I drop this clip onto my video timeline - that I'm using for the TrackMatte effect - it does not work as I anticipated it might - at all....

      Very disappointing - this would have been a very powerful way - to create a moving matte to work with the TrackMatte effect...

       

      Has anyone done something similar before ? Is there an easy fix - or some setting I missed....

      This really - should work ?

       

       

      Some Background:

      I'm working with a GreenScreen shot - with poor back light to separate the hairline from the screen.

      Working with green-screen - subject with blond hair.

       

      I thought the backlight/hairlight was not needed - I was wrong.

      Now with the green-screen keyed out using ultra key - a get this jagged effect around the airline and what looks like snow/noise around the fringe.

       

      I thought by - 1) duplicating the video and combining with 2) TrackMatte effect - using a moving mask that matched just the hairline/outline - I might be able to blurr the outline enought to get rid of the nasty effect I'm seeing...

      As GREAT as the UltraKeyer is - the various transparency/spill/choke/soften parameters don't seem to be able to remove the ugly/noticable hairline artifacts I'm seeing...

      Again - looks like jagged/snow effect...

       

      Any thoughts ?


      Thanks

      F

        • 1. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
          Jim Curtis Community Member

          In my opinion, the track-matting capabilities of Pr fall way short of the mark.  The way FCP7 does it is very useful.  The limitation of the Track Matte in Pr is that the matte scales with the layer being masked.  You can animate and tweak the scale and position of the Track Matte layer, but if you want it to work in smooth sync with the matted layer, you're in for a bit of work.  Ideally, you should be able to pan and scale the layer being masked inside a stationary mask.  Can't do that elegantly in Pr.  This is a design flaw of Pr, IMO.

           

          Generally, you need to go to Ae for proper masking contols, where you have all the power you'd ever need, with the exception of variable feathering, and that's rumored to be included in AeCS6.  Also it'd be nice to be able to track mask points, which isn't currently in Ae either.  But, that's another discussion.

           

          That said, I am able to use the Mask from a Secondary to use as a Luma Track Matte.  Not sure why it's not working for you.  Have you played with the secondary softness controls?  I might not even be following what your problem is.

           

          However, here's a tip I use with Ae that might work to solve your keying problem.  Use two instances of the keyer.  Use the first instance to create a "garbage" key, where you get out most of the green, leaving only a border around your subject.  Then you can use the second instance of the keyer to hone in on the edges.  Give it a shot.  Might work for you.  This method gives you an option of avoiding harsh Matte Cleanup settings that have to eradicate all the green in one setting.

          • 2. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
            Ann Bens CommunityMVP

            A matte from the SCC as a Track Matte?

            Could you show us how you did that?

            • 3. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
              medeamajic Community Member

              The track matte feature of Premiere Pro works just like I want it to. You can animate the video layers used for the track matte or the image layer used as the track matte. You can also put all the elements in a separate sequence if you want to.

               

              Could you post a screen shot of how you do it in FCP 7? I used FCP 5-6 years ago to do track mattes and I thought FCP sucked just for the simple fact that FCP does not have a good titling system to create masks with. I found PP 1.0 better than FCP for creating complex masks. AE would only be needed in my opinion if you need to animate the shape of the mask over time but that sounds more like  rotoscoping than a simple track matte. 

              • 4. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                fmmisa Community Member

                Re: Response - Jim Curtis

                 

                Yes Thank You...

                I finally did get my TrackMatter working - using mask output from SSC effect.  It required I drop a remove matte effect on the mask layer....

                It did not improve the image as much as I hoped it would.

                 

                Re: Using multiple Ultra-Key effects...

                Excellent idea - it improved things...

                 

                I used the same approach and used multiple SCC - one for background - to get it looking more uniform....

                One for the hairline highlights - to saturate it a bit - and get better separation from the background...

                 

                I was not able to remove the effects I was describing completely - but it did improve enough - that with a lighter background - I don't think I'll have to retake the shot.

                Just barely squeaked by I think...

                 

                I really appreciate your quick response....

                 

                Great feedback.

                • 5. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                  Jim Curtis Community Member

                  Ann Bens wrote:

                   

                  A matte from the SCC as a Track Matte?

                  Could you show us how you did that?

                   

                  video layer on V3; apply 3-Way CC, isolate a secondary hue, set output to Mask.

                  layer to be matted on V2; apply Track Matte effect, set controls to V3, Luma

                  layer to be unaffected on V1

                   

                  Track matte in FCP7:

                  layer to be masked on V3, set Modify>Composite Mode> Travel Matte - Luma (or alpha)

                  matte on V2 (luma or alpha)

                  layer to be unaffected on V1

                   

                  As I mentioned, the beauty of the FCP method is that you can scale and pan the video on V3, and the matte size is not affected, and you have full access to tweaking the layers on the main timeline.  If you want the mask to scale with the image, use the Image Mask effect.

                   

                  I'd like to have a choice.  FCP7 gives you one.  Pr doesn't. 

                   

                  There's a clumsy workaround.  You could put your video to be matted in a Nest.  Put the nest on V2 with the Track Matte effect set to V3, the track matte on V3, and then do all your panning and scaling in the Nest.  But, you lose interactivity with the timeline that contains the nest.

                  • 6. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                    fmmisa Community Member

                    Ann Bens...

                     

                    If you like - I can try to upload images of my workspace/effects-panel later tonight...

                     

                    I think I explained it fairly clearly already..... I'm not doing anything different - than many tutorials already hint at.

                     

                    1) Duplicate your video - in a track/layer (B) above your original (A)

                    2) Drop the ThreeColorCorrector (TCC) - on (B)

                    3) Switch output of TCC to "Mask"

                    4) Move to TCC's SecondaryColorCorrection (SCC) properties section - and use the eyedropper color picker to pick just the color/region you want to isolate.

                         NOTE: Now play - and you see the mask is dynamic/animated - it moves with those identified color/pixels.

                    5) Now drop the TrackMatte effect on the original video (A) - and configure - by selecting video (B) as your "Matte"

                    6) ** Switch the TrackMatte effects property - to Luma

                     

                    NOTE: Jim Curtis - says the above worked for him ?

                    For me - it only worked - when I did the following:

                    7) drop a RemoveMatte effect - on the video channel (B) and voila...

                     

                    The visible/video playing now is only the masked region....

                     

                    Good Luck....

                    • 7. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                      Jim Curtis Community Member

                      fmmisa, I'm glad my tips helped.  You're welcome, and thanks for letting us know how it worked out.

                       

                      You could also use a Garbage Matte to eliminate most of your green screen, and deal with the edges, but having a moving subject makes that option more labor intensive.

                      • 8. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                        Ann Bens CommunityMVP

                        I am having a hard time to getting this to work.

                        Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not work.

                        Have to figure out what is going on here.

                        Thanks all.

                        • 9. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                          medeamajic Community Member

                          Jim you wrote the following below

                           

                          "As I mentioned, the beauty of the FCP method is that you can scale and pan the video on V3, and the matte size is not affected, and you have full access to tweaking the layers on the main timeline.  If you want the mask to scale with the image, use the Image Mask effect".

                           

                          When using the 3 way CC as a mask PP may not work as good as FCP. I think your method here is using a video clip as the mask but you could also use the 3 way CC on a image file.

                           

                          Having said that you have full control of the PIP effect for all the layers in Premiere Pro as well. They all work independently. You can pan and scale the track matte image independently of the source video or back ground video layer. You can scale the source video independent of the mask. If PP couldn't do it, it really wouldn't be a track matte it would just be a PIP with a mask. A PIP is just an overlay on top of the video layer but a matte hides certain parts of a video layer to be seen.

                           

                          I take it you are using Photoshop or some other imaging program to create the static masks to be used in FCP 7.

                          • 10. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                            Jim Curtis Community Member


                            medeamajic wrote:

                             

                            You can pan and scale the track matte image independently of the source video or back ground video layer. You can scale the source video independent of the mask.

                             

                            No, I cannot.  Any scaling or positioning to the track matted image scales and moves the matte along with it.

                             

                            I take it you are using Photoshop or some other imaging program to create the static masks to be used in FCP 7.

                             

                            Yes, but you can also use any of FCP7's shapes, or luma mattes created with the title tools.  It's nice when you can stay in the same app.

                            • 11. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                              medeamajic Community Member

                              Jim,

                               

                              By using reverse alpha I can do what you want. I agree it should be easier.

                              • 12. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                                Ann Bens CommunityMVP

                                When you nest the matte you can move the matte in the nested seqence independent of the video.

                                Add the track matte effect in the main timeline to the nest.

                                • 13. Re: Moving mask and Track Matte Question - Why doesn't it work ?
                                  medeamajic Community Member

                                  I know you can use sequences but it should be esier. With CS 4.0 it is easier. Lets hope CS 6.0 improves on this.