26 Replies Latest reply: Apr 2, 2012 9:43 AM by Hudechrome RSS

    Observations About CS6

    Hudechrome Community Member

      First, I have to say the the makeover of RAW is splendid! I am even going back to work I did in the 60's, converting to tiff where needed and opening RAW for some dynamite correction changes.

       

      Now on to PS itself:

       

      Layers: The makeover here leaves much to be desires in terms of visibility and interaction on screen. Take curves for instance. Compare the ease of use of the new, tiny dark boxes in Layers>Curves to the Curves in Edit>Adjustment>Curves. I can actually work with that presentation, which id what Layers>Curves used to look like in CS5. In fact, if this new version is written in stone, I will either revert to CS5 when building Layers or convert to Smart Object and use Edit. Converting to SO limits other tools from being available and isn't the smartest way to go.

       

      I can say that in confidence for all the  Adjustment Layers. They are difficult to see because of the reverse presentation and size and cramped quarters with the additional Header. If you have to cramp up the presentation to give the latest and greatest, maybe it isn't so great.

       

      Elsewhere I spoke out about Cropping issues and I have to include that here as well. If you are going to give classic mode, do the entire classic mode not just bits and pieces. The best part of the new mode is the fact that the image rotates when straightening out the Horizon. I will give that up for on screen usability any day.

       

      As it stands, It looks like I'll have to do my ACR inCS6   then the rest in CS5. I don't know what backwards compatibility issues will result.

       

      Visibility of the brushes in certain tonal ranges is still an issue. Why can't I see the circle in values like in certain cloud values? It slows process terribly to continually have to find it.

       

      There are many steps to learn in using the advanced tools for which I am willing to learn. Adding complications as outlined above impacts the Gumption Factor, including the gumption to pony up for the update.

       

      I'll have more to say as time goes on.

        • 1. Re: Observations About CS6
          BJN3 Community Member

          60's? I'm not even going to try to figure out how that works.

           

          It sounds like you're not using the Properties Panel to good effect. It opens when you double click an adjustment layer and the panel is scalable so it's more flexible than the old interface and with the panel scaled up, I don't see any difference in the histogram presentation size.

           

          Tool visibility seems to be a perpetual Photoshop issue, but I don't find it any worse in CS6 than in other versions.

           

          Deke McClelland has a nice preview of all the features and how to use them efficiently if you have a subscription to Lynda.com.

          • 2. Re: Observations About CS6
            Hudechrome Community Member

            60's? You scan first!

             

            Here's a screen shot of both curve panels along side an image (scanned from a transparency). The Top one is far more visible especially when you want to grab a point on the curve. No, it's not perfect but the new one is worse. (It's been scaled to max.)

             

            CS6_ex1.JPG

            • 3. Re: Observations About CS6
              BJN3 Community Member

              I don't go for the dark interface. It has poor icon contrast and all the darkness is depressing. ;-)

               

              Does this capture from my lighter interface setting look more usable?

               

              image_return.jpg

               

              Great photo, by the way!

              • 4. Re: Observations About CS6
                ckc48 Community Member

                I agree with you 100% about the adjustment layers. I find the new set up very uncomfortable to use.

                 

                1st: those little icons are hard to see (even if you get up close which I have to do since my monitor is a yard away) and even harder to recognize. It took me a while to realize that, as you hover, the icon's translation pops up. It doesn't get bigger or light up or change color. Selecting an adjustment from a clear and visible collection of icons should (and always was) something that didn't require one to stop, focus, think.

                 

                2nd: the interfaces for all the individual adjustments has shrunken which requires extra effort each time you use them. Maybe it's not a big deal for slider based adjustments, but for curves, for example, making incremental and smooth adjustments requires more effort with less maneuvering room.

                 

                3rd: there is a disconnect between the adjustment selection panel and the adjustment controls/mask controls panel (illogically named "Properties.")

                 

                While some people could argue that this new arrangement is more aesthetically pleasing or more economical in its use of real estate, neither one of those considerations should override comfort, usability, or efficient workflow. Somethings, like relocated menus, options, and preferences are just a matter of getting used to them and going on. But this is something that affects workflow and is inconvenient and uncomfortable--and neither of those is likely to change with continued use.

                • 5. Re: Observations About CS6
                  Hudechrome Community Member

                  If I can make just the panel light leaving the image with a dark gray surround, I would be happy, but so far, it's all or nothing, unless I missed a step somewhere.

                  • 6. Re: Observations About CS6
                    BJN3 Community Member

                    The image window background color is controlled via right-click (or cmd-click), the four interface color options are under Edit, Preferences, Interface. So you have separate controls for the working background and the interface.

                    • 7. Re: Observations About CS6
                      BJN3 Community Member

                      I already forgot the secret keyboard control that I saw in one of Deke's tutorials. shift+F2 will lighten the interface in increments (on Mac depending on system prefs you may need to use shift+fn+F2). shift+F1 (with fn on the Mac if needed) increments darker. In the image background right click popup (ctrl+click not cmd+click as I misstated above), you can use the preset grays to black or set your own custom color.

                      • 8. Re: Observations About CS6
                        Jeff Schewe Community Member

                        Hudechrome wrote:

                         

                        Layers: The makeover here leaves much to be desires in terms of visibility and interaction on screen. Take curves for instance. Compare the ease of use of the new, tiny dark boxes in Layers>Curves to the Curves in Edit>Adjustment>Curves. I can actually work with that presentation, which id what Layers>Curves used to look like in CS5. In fact, if this new version is written in stone, I will either revert to CS5 when building Layers or convert to Smart Object and use Edit. Converting to SO limits other tools from being available and isn't the smartest way to go.

                         

                        Couple of things...you realize you CAN move the panel width to be larger and the Curves panel will grow to it's max size which is actually simiplar to the old model dlogs? And "dark" is the default but you can change it to look pretty much the same color/tone as CS5...

                        • 9. Re: Observations About CS6
                          Hudechrome Community Member

                          I didn't know the Deke "Secret" (Secret is crap, imo. Why "secret"?)

                           

                          I do know about setting background in Preferences and is what I meant by all or nothing. which you see in my screen shot. The white background in Edit controls is directly from PS. no tweaks there.

                           

                          The dark gray is my preference. I want to control the colors of the menus palettes separately as I can in Bridge.

                           

                          Open CL is not available on my video card and perhaps that would make the difference. Open CL is required for some of the fine tuning.

                          • 10. Re: Observations About CS6
                            Hudechrome Community Member

                            Yes, and the screen shot has Curves maximized. for the rest, see immediately above.

                            • 11. Re: Observations About CS6
                              BJN3 Community Member

                              On interface "secrets" I agree, but Adobe has always been terrible with keyboard command documentation. The third-party "insiders" are usually the first place most of us hear about them.

                               

                              I have a card that supports Adobe's minimum Open GL specs. If you consider a new card I recommend a workstation class card like an Nvidia Quadro. The mainstream cards had so many driver issues because they're optimized for gaming that I finally decided to pay more to get essentially the same horsepower. But workstation graphics adapter drivers aren't updated every other day and they're very stable.

                              • 12. Re: Observations About CS6
                                Trevor.Dennis MVP

                                Just a thought, but with the CS6 properties, and CS5 Curves windows at a size that shows all the options without too much clutter, the size of the actual curve is identical from CS5 to CS6.  

                                • 13. Re: Observations About CS6
                                  Hudechrome Community Member

                                  It's Open CL, not GL that is at issue.

                                   

                                  The card I use is an ATI 5670 which runs PS very well except for the OpenCL. PS recognizes my card.

                                   

                                  nVidia vs ATI is almost as testy as Mac/PC used to be. They both have their place and neither is an exact substitute for the other.

                                   

                                  The driver issues in the ATI series I am using are pretty well stabilized. They come up with updates and it's incumbent on us to test each update thoroughly.

                                   

                                  Drivers for both cover a very wide range of card series, especially nVidia. It is conceivable that a driver update for an entire group of cards may actually have problems with one card but not another. So depending on the class is not enough to validate an update without testing.

                                  • 14. Re: Observations About CS6
                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                    Correct, and the difference between Edit Curves and Adjustment Layer curves is the same. I greatly prefer the white background, with somewhat darker lines than is present in the old versions. I just do not want to give up the elegant dark gray of CS6. I put my palettes on a second monitor so having independent control of the values is not a problem. If you ever had to plot graphs by hand on the old yellow pad/green line engineering papers you know what I mean. The graph looked good because the background receded from the image but if you had to do an x/y coordinate measurement it took a lot of squinting!

                                     

                                    With the current presentation, it's particularly difficult to find the exact point on the curve outside the histogram (which does set off the coordinates nicely)  it becomes another slowdown point in the workflow. I am thinking that CS6 is worse than CS5 and earlier.

                                     

                                    But it is elegant, I'll grant them that. When working on the image itself, it's like listening to  beautiful music, and I really hear that when I work. But then the rhythm is broken when I mess with the pallets.

                                    • 15. Re: Observations About CS6
                                      BJN3 Community Member

                                      No, it's not. It's OpenGL is the graphics rendering standard that Adobe hooks into for acceleration:

                                       

                                      http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/gpu-opengl-support-photoshop-cs4.html

                                       

                                      ATI makes good stuff, I don't care about brand wars. But I do know that workstation drivers are updated much less frequently and they're tested on productivity applications like CAD, video production, and image editing and that gaming performance doesn't lead workstation driver development. That's true for ATI and for Nvidia.

                                       

                                      Anyway, this has drifted off into the weeds. Good luck with the new tool and finding your rhythm. There are pluses and minuses. The much improved layer functions more than any complaints I have. ACR is much improved.

                                      • 16. Re: Observations About CS6
                                        Hudechrome Community Member

                                        Thanks for the correction. I read the tool tip wrong. I read it as Open CL.

                                         

                                        I wish they picked a different acronym. Open CL and Open GL can look the same on a quick read of the tool tip. At any rate open CL is not running on my card, according to GPU-Z. So I concluded that certain functions on the Interface page which don't seem to run was due to that. The three modes don't seem to make any difference. I'll look into it.

                                         

                                        Many of the differences I'm certain I will absorb as time goes on. One negative seems to be balanced by a positive. The cropping tool however...

                                        • 17. Re: Observations About CS6
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          As I understand it, Photoshop CS6 uses both OpenGL and OpenCL (which are two completely different things that can be used to leverage the power of the GPU). 

                                           

                                          • OpenGL is a library of functions for allowing programs to draw things using GPU functionality, and while it does some things very well, it has limitations.  Think 3D rendering, as as video games drawing 3D scenes might use, but that doesn't stop programs like Photoshop from using the facilities to draw 2D objects like images or using it to render 3D work.
                                          • OpenCL is a method for writing programs to run on the GPU in a standardized language.  You can see the obvious utility of doing this.

                                           

                                          Lawrence, go into Edit - Preferences - Performance.

                                           

                                          Assuming your [  ] Use Graphics Processor setting is set, Photoshop is using OpenGL.

                                           

                                          Now click the [ Advanced Settings... ] button.  Is the [  ] Use OpenCL option set?

                                           

                                          I'm concerned that you are saying OpenCL is unavailable with the Radeon HD 5670.  This is the same card I have, but I haven't been able to test it directly because I have only installed Photoshop CS6 on a virtual machine, not on my main workstation.  Aren't you doing likewise?  If that's the case, then the implementations of OpenGL and OpenCL Photoshop CS6 is using aren't directly related to the ATI card.  They're virtual.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Observations About CS6
                                            Hudechrome Community Member

                                            Yes, it is unavailable, as indicated in both the Performance tab and GPU-Z. I checked them both earlier while checking out various items.

                                             

                                            I haven't looked at any card updates for this function, but frankly between ATI and nVidia differences, I'm not sure where I migh go next. The Computing heading on GPU-Z shows OpenCL,Cuda, PhysX and DirectCompute 5.0 check boxes. Only DirectCompute is checked.

                                             

                                            I suspect that there is no card that has it all but that's just a guess.

                                             

                                            Obfuscation reigns (or maybe rains!).

                                            • 19. Re: Observations About CS6
                                              Noel Carboni Community Member

                                              Just to be clear:

                                               

                                              Are you using a virtual machine to see these things, or are you running Windows 8 native on your hardware?

                                               

                                              If you're running a VM it's not an ATI/nVidia issue at all.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                Hudechrome Community Member

                                                VM has been abandoned. I am running both Win8 on a separate HD with CS6, currently not my go-to combination, and both CS6 and CS5 on Win7 64.

                                                 

                                                The reason I abandoned CS6/Win8 combo is that my printer isn't recognized on Win8 for there is no Win8 driver at this point.

                                                 

                                                VM is totally uninstalled on this machine. I realized the limitations on video card performance from the get-go. I cannot see any reason beyond novelty to use it at this point. VMware has the additional problem of having to set Win7 as a VM in order to run Win8, a huge slowdown.

                                                • 21. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                  Honestly, some of what you're saying doesn't make sense to me, but that's okay, it's not a problem.  No need to go into the VM discussion any further.

                                                   

                                                  What you're saying, then, if I have it straight is that running Windows 8 right on the hardware you're seeing Photoshop CS6 not allowing you to select the [  ] Use OpenCL option.

                                                   

                                                  This is a bit disturbing, but I don't suppose it's that much of a panic insofar as ATI hasn't released any "production" driver sets for Windows 8 yet.  It's all beta.  This may be a case of too many levels of beta limiting what you can do.

                                                   

                                                  I've been holding off installing Photoshop CS6 beta on my Windows 7 workstation (i.e., right on the hardware), and I have been very interested to hear whether OpenCL is available using production ATI drivers (Catalyst 12.3 in my case).

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                                    Open CL is blocked period. CS5 and CS6. GPU-Z verifies this:

                                                     

                                                    GPU-Z.JPG

                                                    • 23. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                      OpenCL is blocked because the installed software doesn't support it.  ATI definitely DOES support OpenCL in Windows 7 on these boards. 

                                                       

                                                      Do they even provide a full Catalyst package for Windows 8, or is it a display driver alone?

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 24. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                        Hudechrome Community Member

                                                        That seems to be the case. I attempted to re-install 11.7 and the installation failed. All that installed was the driver. So I downloaded the current version 12.3, which specifically listed Open CL as a bullet point. CS6 now sees Open CL.

                                                         

                                                        I don't know what actually failed during 11.7 re-install. It stopped at MS Redistributable installation. 12.3 went on and completed.

                                                         

                                                        I hope 12.3 isn't a dud for PS!

                                                         

                                                        What would I look for with Open CL enabled?

                                                        • 25. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                          ckc48 Community Member

                                                          From what I've been able to decipher, Open  CL kicks in for the blur gallery functions. The pop up warning in the advanced tab in which I have it checked by default says "TURN THIS OFF IF THE BLUR GALLERY DOESN'T PERFORM AS EXPECTED."

                                                           

                                                          So far, my blur gallery experience seems to be functional--not impressive, but functional. (I'm sure it will improve somewhat once I get better at it, but I don't foresee much use.)

                                                          • 26. Re: Observations About CS6
                                                            Hudechrome Community Member

                                                            Re reading my last post I forgot to emphasize that the re-installation effort was on Win 7, as that system was not responding to Open CL. I haven't tried Win 8 ATI drivers, and I see that ATI is making efforts to provide for Win 8.