28 Replies Latest reply: Apr 4, 2012 5:48 PM by johnrellis RSS

    Keyword List Confusion

    sasha_t2

      LR3 doesn't filter keyword listing by typing a synonym of a keyword!

      So, I need to remember main keywords to do filtering.

        • 1. Re: Keyword List Confusion
          Thomas Krueger Community Member

          Confirmed, that makes synonyms unuseable for keywording working with large controlled keyword lists (> 20,000 words).

          • 2. Re: Keyword List Confusion
            Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

            Confirmed. Win XP.

            • 3. Re: Keyword List Confusion
              Claire_photo Community Member

              Confirmed as well.

              It is a real problem for me since I use synonyms extensively... Maybe there is a setting to change that behavior, but I could not find it.

              • 4. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                Thomas Krueger Community Member

                You can add the synonyms in a hierarchial way with a dash in front under your keyword. But assigning synonyms you must tick every dashed keyword, so it's not very helpful.

                • 5. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                  Claire_photo Community Member

                  Thanks, but that is not the problem. I am using a hierarchial list of keywords already. I bought the Controlled Vocabulary Keyword Catalog and modified it to my own needs (adding French synonyms, for example, since it is my mother tongue).

                   

                  In Lightroom 2, I could go in the keyword list, type a word (or the beginning of a word) in the search field and Lightroom would give me the keywords that fit that search, be it the accepted keyword or the synonym. It is not the case anymore with Lightroom 3.

                   

                  Let me give you a very simple example:

                   

                  Keyword : women

                  Synonym : woman

                   

                  With LR2, if I entered "woman" in the search field, it pointed to "women". In LR3, I get no result...

                   

                  Well, since it starts with the same 3 letters, I can find it, but it is not the case with "Fall" and "Autumn", etc...

                   

                  I really hope it is something that could be fixed...

                  • 6. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                    Ian Lyons CommunityMVP

                    It's working correctly on Mac when I type the synonym into the search field of the Metadata filter or create a smart collection.

                    • 7. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                      Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                      He's talking about the search field of the Keywording List panel.

                      • 8. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                        Ian Lyons CommunityMVP

                        I submitted a bug report

                        • 9. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                          Claire_photo Community Member

                          Thank you Ian. I appreciate it. Hoping it will be fixed soon, especially since it was working so well in LR2.

                          Claire

                          • 10. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                            ianbutty Community Member

                            Any one know if Adobe have accepted this a bug?  Certainly is a real pain when working with a keyword hierarchy where more keywords have synonyms than don't.

                             

                            I wonder if while this one is being fixed the keyword assignment count could be fixed too? 

                             

                            At the moment the count only reflects direct assignments not direct assignments plus child categories.  I got caught out earlier today while getting rid of duplicate categories....

                             

                            beach              0

                                 sand          123

                                 pebble        87

                             

                            beach               1  (This was the duplicate created in error at some point)

                             

                            Did a keyword filter on "beach" - saw one had 0 images assigned and one had 1 image assigned. (You can't see child categories when a filter is active).  I deleted the keyword with 0 items in it thinking that must be the redundant duplicate! 

                             

                            PLEASE Adobe can we have an option to have the counts as they were in LR - direct assignments plus children?

                            • 11. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                              Ian Lyons CommunityMVP

                              ianbutty wrote:

                               

                              Any one know if Adobe have accepted this a bug? 

                               

                               

                              The bug was logged. Whether it will be fixed is not something I can comment on.

                               

                               

                               

                              I wonder if while this one is being fixed the keyword assignment count could be fixed too? 

                               

                              At the moment the count only reflects direct assignments not direct assignments plus child categories.  I got caught out earlier today while getting rid of duplicate categories....

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              This is a design change, not a bug.  So, as of Lr3 only explicit keywords will be the only ones with a count against them.

                              • 12. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                ianbutty Community Member
                                This is a design change, not a bug.  So, as of Lr3 only explicit keywords will be the only ones with a count against them.

                                I don't understand the logic/reason behind the design change especially as it causes problems like the one described above.  Thus the request/suggestion for an option to use the LR2 method of counting.  From my perspective it is functionality in LR2 that I used on a daily basis that has been removed in LR3.

                                • 13. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                  Claire_photo Community Member

                                  Ian Lyons wrote:

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  The bug was logged. Whether it will be fixed is not something I can comment on.

                                   


                                   

                                  Very disappointing. Version 3.2 did not fix that problem. :-(

                                  • 14. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                    Thomas Krueger Community Member

                                    Adobe should hire Mario Westphal, the programmer of Imatch. The best IPTC editor can be found in this software: http://www.photools.com/im0002.php -  A one-man-project. Lucky guy, he can avoid the confusion of the project team... 

                                    • 15. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                      ianbutty Community Member

                                      Claire_photo wrote:

                                      Very disappointing. Version 3.2 did not fix that problem. :-(

                                      I agree.  This inability to search pseudonyms is a real pain for those of us who are stock photographers and thus by necessity probably spend more time in the metadata sections of Lightroom than in the develop section.  :-(

                                      • 16. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                        Claire_photo Community Member

                                        The only solution I found yet was to export my keywords (Metadata / Export keywords) et search by " Ctrl + f ". Not a very easy solution. Especially when we know that it was possible with Lightroom 2. Somehow, it defeats the purpose of keywording. I work in libraries. And I can tell you that a real good system of keywords has to include searching of synonyms...

                                        • 17. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                          sasha_t2 Community Member

                                          I don't think this is a good design change I think this is a bug which must be fixed.

                                          So, I have submitted a bug report as well.

                                          • 18. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                            ianbutty Community Member

                                            shootme.ru wrote:

                                             

                                            I don't think this is a good design change I think this is a bug which must be fixed.

                                            So, I have submitted a bug report as well.

                                            I submitted a bug report about not being able to search pseudonyms when 3.2RC came out with the hope that they would fix it for the actual release.

                                             

                                            It is very frustraiting - something that is causing so much pain which should be an easy fix.  Surely it's just a case of looking at the LR2 code and compare it with the LR3 code and put back whatever has been removed.

                                             

                                            Ian.

                                            • 19. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                              S Beller Community Member

                                              I agree that the two issues posted here are two steps backward in Lr3 in comparison to Lr2:

                                              - synonyms should be able to be found by the filter as well

                                              - the number of all "inherited" keywords should be stated next to a "parent" keyword as well

                                               

                                              Both issues worked perfectly well in Lr 2, so why did you change it?

                                              If there *really* was a need from many users to change this behavior in Lr3 then please do offer a switch so both options are available. This way we users can still have *our* preference, not that one of anyone else. It really is a pain that once when you got to know the nice features of a software they suddenly got removed in a subsequent version.

                                              So please, reintroduce the above features again and make them switchable.

                                              • 20. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                camerahans Community Member

                                                One of the employees of Adobe (I think it was Melissa) remarked somewhere (could have been the beta forum) that the count in the keyword list was changed because of performance trouble. To bad. It seems this database isn't up to the task. It still has performance problems, at least in my case: the requery after changes/adding keywords can take a lot of time before the system is available again.

                                                • 21. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                  johnrellis CommunityMVP
                                                  - synonyms should be able to be found by the filter as well

                                                  My new plugin, Any Tag, handles synonyms properly for tagging and filtering photos:

                                                   

                                                  http://www.johnrellis.com/lightroom/anytag.htm

                                                  • 22. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                    John-Markiel Community Member

                                                    OK let me add another twist to the confusion.  I can understand the (weird) logic of only counting keywords explicitly assigned, but if you do that selecting the base keyword should select ONLY the explicit assignments.  EXAMPLE:

                                                     

                                                    On a hike I may be shooting a variety of subjects ie flowers, landscape, fungi, birds, etc, etc.  First pass I just want to keyword all the flowers, birds, etc without taking the time for a full identification.  Therefore 'brids' gives me a count of the bird shots that have not been identified by an explicit name.  Later I can go back and add the photo to 'finch' and remove it from 'birds'.  Later I can go back and specifically identify it as 'goldfinch' and remove it from 'finch'.  Unfortunately LR3 makes this extremely difficult.  If I search keywords and select 'birds' I get ALL the birds; unidentified, robins, eagles, etc, etc so in 300 birds how do I find the 5 new ones that have not been classified??  Or the 50 I have not been able to find an ID yet?  Yes, I could have another keyword like 'unidentified' under 'birds' but the still does not answer the question of finding the 5 in the wrong place. 

                                                     

                                                    According to another post CS5 has the option to assign parent keywords when a subkeyword is selected.  In LR apparently I need to go into EVERY subkey and verify ALL the parents are also selected.  Otherwise selecting 'birds' with a count of 5 returns some 300 images.  I still haven't figured out how to find those 5 so I can add the correct subkeywords.  A totally flat list fixes the problem nicely by having 'birds', 'birds-finch', 'birds-finch-goldfinch', 'birds-robin', etc.  I somewhat did that with locations such as the AL-Alabama > AL-Auburn > AL-Auburn-Campus hierarchy.  Otherwise you get weird combinations like Columbus > Georgia, Columbus > Ohio, Columbus > Indiana; but what does Campus > Columbus refer to???  Unfortunately there does not seem to be any simple way to find AL-Alabama landscapes without the subkey images included.  I understand there are some fancy search methods I have not discovered yet, but I don't like to klutz up everything I do.

                                                     

                                                    I am real new to LR and trying to get some 18,000 images loaded and classified by something other than just date/location.  It does not look like the whole keyword issue has been well thought out.  I also have a somewhat similar problem with folders, but at least there I can turn off show subfolders to keyword just the photos in a specific folder without having the clutter of all the subfolders.  I have not really explored collections yet but I am rather terrified of finding exactly the same design structure there as well.

                                                    • 23. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                      camperrin Community Member

                                                      Has anybody having installed LR 3.3 final tested the first part of this discussion, that is "searching for synonyms instead of keywords no longer works in LR3.0", and whether it has been fixed or not?

                                                      Best regards

                                                      • 24. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                        johnrellis CommunityMVP

                                                        The bug still exists in LR 3.3 -- the Filter Keywords box in the Keyword List pane in the right column does not show synonyms.  However, you can use my Any Tag plugin, which handles synonyms and keywords with spaces properly:

                                                         

                                                        http://www.johnrellis.com/lightroom/anytag.htm

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        • 25. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                          camperrin Community Member

                                                          Thanks for your reply, John.

                                                           

                                                          I'm currently running LR 2.7, was waiting for LR 3.x  to stabilize before upgrading, scanning the user forum regularly for bugs which may affect my workflow.

                                                           

                                                          I guess I'll be migrating soon, and consider your plugin.

                                                           

                                                          Best Regards

                                                          • 26. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                            sasha_t2 Community Member

                                                            The bug still exists in LR 4. Why??? Looks like it's not the time for upgrade.

                                                            John, I'll look into your plug-in.

                                                            • 27. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                              Claire_photo Community Member

                                                              Oh no! I can't believe this isn't fixed yet.

                                                               

                                                              Is there an email to Adobe that I can write to?

                                                               

                                                              Lightroom is supposed to be a catalog. Not just a mean to develop our photos.

                                                              I am thinking more and more about buying another software, a DAM, to handle my keywords.

                                                              Any suggestions?

                                                              • 28. Re: Keyword List Confusion
                                                                johnrellis CommunityMVP

                                                                You can provide feedback via the official Adobe feedback forum.  There is already a topic about this issue:

                                                                 

                                                                http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/find_keyword_by_synonym

                                                                 

                                                                Please add your opinion and vote.  Adobe does pay attention and participate in that forum, so your feedback matters.