29 Replies Latest reply: Apr 14, 2012 7:17 AM by trshaner RSS

    High ISO color changes between LR and PS?

    SpottedMeLR

      So I came across this anomaly after taking some test shots. There's a pretty drastic shift in colors when I bring a high ISO RAW from LR into PS and then save it to bring it back into LR. This file hasn't been edited, just saved as a tif through PS. Changing my working profile does nothing, and I don't think it's calibration related because it doesn't happen with my lower ISO (3200-) pictures. What I do know is it's being converted from 24 bit to 48 bit depth and changing color representation from sRGB to uncalibrated. From researching, I understand that the file info stating 'uncalibrated'  just means that there is an embedded profile (which is what LR shows). Something is going on, but my attempts to fix it haven't worked. I've tried adjusting profiles (LR/PS are matched btw), assigning profiles, converting to profiles, and my monitor is callibrated. In detail, here is the issue I'm seeing:

       

      LR RAW > PS TIF - everything is awesome > TIF LR - goes bad

      Re-import tif edit to PS - everything is awesome again

      Export tif edit from LR to JPG - looks like it does in LR (bad)

      Export same tif edit from PS to JPG - looks like it does in PS (perfectly fine)

       

      I just can't wrap my head around why this is only happening with high ISO images. Originally I suspected my monitor profile, but can't see how that would make sense if everything below 3200 ISO looks perfect between both programs. Is the tiff doing something with the noise? Is LR missing some information in the tiff? Is this to be expected? It basically seems to be diluting the contrast/vibrancy, which is easy enough to fix, but a bit of an annoyance anyway.

        • 1. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
          Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

          Why is it uncalibrated? It really shouldn't be. Check your color management policies in Photoshop. If it's set to strip profiles, change it to preserve.

          • 2. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
            SpottedMeLR

            It is set to preserve, and I don't get any alert on import to preserve/convert the profile. Where it says uncalibrated is when you right click on a file from a folder and click properties. From there, in details, it will say uncalibrated under color representation. Searching 'color representation uncalibrated' in google will say what I said... That there is just an embedded profile other than sRGB (in this case, AdobeRGB, but it was kind of confusing how I said it was converted from sRGB above).

            • 3. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
              Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

              Can you check your develop settings for the TIFFs you get back from Photoshop? Is everything at defaults?

              • 4. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                SpottedMeLR

                No change to any settings aside from the histogram doing its thing and Camera Calibration Profile changing from Adobe Standard (RAW) to Embedded (TIFF).

                • 5. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                  Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                  Lightroom, Photoshop and ACR version?

                   

                  When you open in PS, do you let ACR render it?

                  • 6. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                    SpottedMeLR

                    Not normally, but here are some tests:

                     

                    LR/PS/ACR reflect the ORIGINAL image identically, the only differences are PS/ACR's histogram.

                     

                    ACR has the exact histogram as LR when on ProPhoto RGB. Changing the profile to this (via ACR/PS/LR individually or together) results in the same visual output issue to LR.

                     

                    Importing the picture as a smart object and saving it through ACR as ProPhoto still results in PS forcing the histogram it has chosen.

                    • 7. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                      trshaner MVP

                      When sending an image to PS using 'Edit In' the the tonal balance is changing for me as well. I'm using LR4.1 RC with Process 2012, ACR6.7 Beta, and PS CS5. I tried opening the raw file from inside PS, which launches ACR6.7 Beta with a warning to use process 2010. It appears it is not possible to use Process 2012 with ACR 6.7 Beta and CS5:

                      ACR6.7Beta.jpg

                      I upgraded to ACR6.7 Beta as suggested in other posts in the LR forum, but it appears  the only way to use a LR Process 2012 raw image in PS CS5 is to let LR 4 render it. Is this the case, or am I doing this incorrectly?

                      • 8. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                        SpottedMeLR

                        Not sure we have quite the same issue, trshaner. I'm not forced to convert to 2010 process and my tones stay the same until I save as a TIFF and import back to LR. As well, my issue spans LR/PS versions. Worth a try to check for updates maybe (7.0 ACR is out now).

                        • 9. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                          Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                          So what's your LR and ACR versions?

                          • 10. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                            Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                            I upgraded to ACR6.7 Beta as suggested in other posts in the LR forum, but it appears  the only way to use a LR Process 2012 raw image in PS CS5 is to let LR 4 render it. Is this the case, or am I doing this incorrectly?

                            You're right.

                             

                            ACR 6.7RC renders a bit different than LR4.0+. Details here: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4265437

                            • 11. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                              SpottedMeLR

                              LR 4.1/ACR 7. I also tried in LR 3.6 with PS 5 and have the same issue.

                              • 12. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                SpottedMeLR

                                So to be sure, my issue and trshaner's aren't the same, right?

                                • 13. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                  Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                  No, it's not the same.

                                   

                                  I have reproduced the problem. But I cannot explain it.

                                   

                                  Just to check, do you see the same difference between Raw and Tiff in Lightroom if you zoom to 1:1?

                                   

                                  EDIT: Btw, what camera is that and what ISO?

                                  • 14. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                    trshaner MVP

                                    I tried 'Edit In Photoshop CS5' using LR3.6 and ACR6.7 Beta using ISO 25,600 and 3,200 image files from my 5D MKII. I can see a small change in the histogram for the ISO 25,600 'Edit In PS CS5' TIF, but no chnage for the ISO 3,200 TIF. This seems to confirm what the OP is seeing with his high ISO images.

                                     

                                    Dorin, is there a way to uninstall ACR6.7 Beta and reinstall ACR 6.6? I tried to install ACR6.6 and 6.6 update, but the Adobe Updater says the installation failed. I'd prefer not to reinstall PS CS5 if possible.

                                     

                                    Edit In Photoshop.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                      Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                      This issue has nothing to do with ACR or Photoshop. It's how Lightroom is rendering downsized high-ISO Tiffs. So, going back to ACR 6.6 won't gain you anything.

                                      • 16. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                        trshaner MVP

                                        Dorin, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The TIF files created using LR4.1 'Edit In' are full-size, 16bit, ProPhotoRGB profile files with no downsizing. The reason I want revert back to ACR6.6 is because with ACR6.7 Beta the option to 'Render Using Lightroom' is no longer available. I can only do this now using the File>Export route. Is there another way to invoke 'Render using Lightroom' for external editing when using ACR6.7 with LR4.1?

                                        • 17. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                          SpottedMeLR

                                          No, I don't see the issue at 1:1. I do still see it at 1:3 (realistic editing zoom for this file size - 24mp) and on export to jpg though.

                                           

                                          The camera is a Sony a65. That particular picture was 12800 ISO and a zoom at 1:3 for no particular reason. I should have included a RAW from the start for anyone else wants to reproduce it.

                                           

                                          Here's a RAW from my camera (also 12800). And here's an example that also includes the difference in tiff rendering when 43 luminance noise reduction is applied to the raw through LR before editing it in PS:

                                           

                                          Image12.jpg

                                          • 18. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                            trshaner MVP

                                            FYI - I found this forum link with a procedure for downgrading ACR version for Windows 7 systems by manually replacing the Camera Raw.8bi files for 32 bit and 64 bit program versions of PS CS5.

                                             

                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/4088091#4088091

                                             

                                            The below images were processed again in LR3.6 and ACR6.6. The two images appear almost identical, but the histograms are still clearly different.

                                             

                                            Double-click on picture for full-size or download.

                                            LR3 Edit In.jpg

                                            Personally, I don't shoot above ISO 3,200 and never encountered any of these problems in the past. However, it would be interesting to find out what is going on and if Adobe can get better correlation between the "onscreen raw imaging and histogram" and final "rendered output." The 'Export' route for rendering this CR2 raw image produced virtually the same histogram as 'Edit In Photoshop CS5.'

                                            • 19. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                              trshaner MVP

                                              SpottedMeLR I downloaded the Sony A65 raw file and processed it in LR 3.6/ACR6.6 with default LR settings. My results are the same as yours. I next tried adjusting NR to what I would normally use on a high ISO image:

                                               

                                              Luminance 50, Detail 50, Contrast 0

                                               

                                              Color 25, Detail 50

                                               

                                              No other changes were made to LR's default settings.

                                              SonyDCS_NR.jpg

                                               

                                              The original raw image and 'Export In PS CS5' images now look virtually identical in LR3. It appears more liberal Color and Luminance NR helps reduce the differences observed with these very high ISO images, which you probably should be using anyhow. As a side note 1:1 view is best when adjusting Noise Reduction, regardless of the ISO setting. I start with Color first and increase it until all "color" noise is gone, and then adjust Luminance to reduce the remaining noise. The Luminance setting will soften the image slightly, which the detail and contrast sliders may help. Next you may want to increase sharpening slightly to offset NR softening, but too much will just accentuate the Luminance noise. It's a fine balance, but always best done at 1:1 (100%) view setting.

                                              • 20. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                SpottedMeLR

                                                That's what I was trying to show with my examples. The issue I have with this is the reliance of having to use it to get identical colour results. I don't necessarily want to remove noise that I don't find is all that visible in the first place (without pixel peeping). I get okay results with milder luminance noise removal and extreme sharpening, but it's still something I don't think should *have to* to be done in every high ISO image. Stubborn, maybe? I try to shoot below 3200 as well, but it's nice to be able to keep my options open when need be and know I won't run into oddities like this when it comes to editing. Am I asking too much?

                                                • 21. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                  trshaner MVP

                                                  SpottedMeLR wrote:

                                                   

                                                  That's what I was trying to show with my examples. The issue I have with this is the reliance of having to use it to get identical colour results. I don't necessarily want to remove noise that I don't find is all that visible in the first place (without pixel peeping). I get okay results with milder luminance noise removal and extreme sharpening, but it's still something I don't think should *have to* to be done in every high ISO image.

                                                   

                                                  Even when shooting below ISO 3200 where this LR anomaly doesn't occur  you should be applying both Color and Luminance NR. My 21Mp full-frame Canon 5D MKII "default" NR setting is Luminance 0 and Color 15, and at ISO 3200 I typically use Luminace 25 and Color 25, or higher. Feel free to change any of your default settings in LR using Develop> Set Default Settings on the toolbar. You can also create Develop Presets for 'High ISO' images using Develop>New Preset. Make as many as you need based on your shooting needs. You can also quickly adjust one (1) image file and apply a unique NR setting across all the images shot at the same high ISO setting using Settings>Copy Settings and Paste Settings or 'Sync' button at the bottom of the Develop tools panel. Check just Noise Reduction>Color & Luminance in the Synchronize Settings' panel. And yes, a 1:1 (100%) view is the only way you should be making NR and Sharpening adjustments in LR.......they will only look better at lower view settings.

                                                   

                                                  SpottedMeLR wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Stubborn, maybe? I try to shoot below 3200 as well, but it's nice to be able to keep my options open when need be and know I won't run into oddities like this when it comes to editing. Am I asking too much?

                                                  IMHO - Why not properly use these tools in LR all of the time, since it can be done for you almost automatically.

                                                  • 22. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                    SpottedMeLR

                                                    I'm not talking about completely removing settings that LR already applies to RAW images, which I'm happy with as is for the most part. When I use noise removal and sharpening beyond that is when it is noticable to me and when I deem necessary. There are certain methods in PS that I actually prefer to use for noise removal in some cases as well, which gives me more control than LR's options. To me, this isn't a question of whether or not I should use noise removal to fix color innaccuracies between the two programs, but how I can do that without being forced to use that route.

                                                    • 23. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                      trshaner MVP

                                                      SpottedMeLR wrote:

                                                       

                                                      To me, this isn't a question of whether or not I should use noise removal to fix color innaccuracies between the two programs, but how I can do that without being forced to use that route.

                                                       

                                                      I hear what you are saying and totally agree that is a legitimate request. That is why I said in one my reply today, it would be interesting to find out what is going on and if Adobe can get better correlation between the "onscreen raw imaging and histogram" and final "rendered output."

                                                       

                                                      I went back and looked at the 'Export In PS CS5' image using your file with LR's default settings to try and determine "why" it looks different. On closer analysis in LR it appears the exported image looks lighter due to a predominance of white Luminance noise pixels, which is NOT visible in the original raw file. This is actually causing the image to appear lower in contrast, and/or slightly brighter.

                                                       

                                                      If you feel strongly about this LR anomaly why not post it as a "bug" at the Feature Request/Bug Reporting site:

                                                       

                                                      http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family

                                                      • 24. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                        Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                                        On closer analysis in LR it appears the exported image looks lighter due to a predominance of white Luminance noise pixels, which is NOT visible in the original raw file.

                                                        I didn't quite understand what do you compare here. A Lightroom tiff export at full resolution with the raw directly opened in Photoshop? If yes, these look pixel-to-pixel identilal to me.

                                                         

                                                        No so when you export a downsized tiff in Lightroom, though.

                                                        • 25. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                          trshaner MVP

                                                          Agreed, when comparing the original raw file to the LR exported image file in Photoshop CS5/ACR6.6 they look identical. The difference can only be seen when viewing the files open in LR. Both LR3 process 2010 and LR 4.1 RC process 2010 and 2012 exhibit the same "lightening" in the 'Edit in Photoshop CS5' or 'Export' image file, compared to the original raw image file. Using a fairly high Luminosity setting of around 50 produces virtually identical original RAW and Exported images in LR with the DSC01156.tiff file as well.

                                                           

                                                          On a hunch I used the same "default settings, but reduced sharpening to 0. The Edit In' and Export image files now look identical to the original raw file! The exact same behavior can be seen using LR3 process 2010, LR4.1 RC process 2010, and LR4.1 RC process 2012. This is surprising since LR4 now applies NR at all view sizes and LR3 only does at 1:1 view size. This "lightening" phenomenom only occurs when using very high ISO noisy image files (like the OP's) with low Luminosity settings or none applied.

                                                          • 26. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                            Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                                            This is surprising since LR4 now applies NR at all view sizes and LR3 only does at 1:1 view size.

                                                            The NR is applied to Raw files, but strangely it's the flat files that look wrong.

                                                             

                                                            So far, everything points to the resampling algorithm Lightroom uses both in Develop module for on-screen previews as well as at export. But I haven't heard of any official comments.

                                                            • 27. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                              trshaner MVP

                                                              Yes, the original raw file image looks the same in LR and PS CS5. It's the exported files that look different, so your theory concerning LR's resampling algorithms for onscreen imaging and Export seems correct.

                                                               

                                                              I created three files using LR's default develop settings and the following Export settings

                                                               

                                                              1) Full-size with no sharpening

                                                              2) 900 x 600 size and Screen Standard sharpening

                                                              3) 900 x 600 size and no sharpening

                                                               

                                                              (TIFF, ProPhoto RGB, 16bit output)

                                                               

                                                              The downsized (i.e. resampled) exported images 2 & 3 look identical and lighter in both PS and LR when compared to the original raw image file. The full-size exported image file looks the same as the original raw image file in PS and lighter in LR. This confirms there is an issue with LR's screen preview and develop Export resample algorithms, which is visible with very high ISO noisy image files.

                                                              • 28. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                                trshaner MVP

                                                                I I also discovered why LR's Histogram looks so different between the original raw image file and the 'Edit In' or' Export' image files, which have had no external processing.

                                                                 

                                                                LR's Histogram display shows the processed image results without sharpening or noise reduction applied. Try it for yourself with any high ISO noisy image. Crank the Sharpening to 150 and NR Luminance and Color to 100.....the Histogram remains unchanged! Now go into PS with the same image file and apply Unsharp mask and/or Gaussian Blur. You will see dramatic changes in the Histogram. I'm not sure how important this issue is since most people are only concerned with the Black and White clipping points. High amounts of noise may show more (or less) clipping in the Histogram than is actually in the final processed image, but I'm guessing that LR4's "adaptive" White and Black point compensation makes this a non-issue.

                                                                • 29. Re: High ISO color changes between LR and PS?
                                                                  trshaner MVP

                                                                  FYI - I just reported this as a "problem" at the 'Feature Request & Bug Report' site:

                                                                   

                                                                  http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/afm8rbh6tnc31