26 Replies Latest reply: Apr 16, 2012 2:22 PM by Noel Carboni RSS

    Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing

    tvalleau Community Member

      Hi.  I'm using the Cone Piezography black inks for my prints, and the usual process is to set the printer profile to gamma 2.2... except that under CS6, not all profiles are listed, and critically missing for me is gamma 2.2.  Suggestions? Work arounds? Any ideas as to how to edit a copy of the gamma 2.2 profile so as to make it appear in the list?

        • 1. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
          Chris Cox Adobe Employee

          Only the profiles applicable to your printer will be listed.

          If you are printing to an RGB printer, then only RGB profiles will be listed.

          If you are printing to a grayscale only printer, then only grayscale profiles will be listed.

           

          It sounds like you're trying to print to an RGB or CMYK printer, and attempting to use a grayscale profile.

          • 2. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
            tvalleau Community Member

            Thanks, Chris, for the courteous reply.

             

            Your conclusion is correct, but it's not outside an important and reasonably mainstream use:

             

            Cone's Piezography inks are seven shades of blank ink, which are used in various Epson printers (generally) replacing the CMYK color carts. This allows for the production of extremely high quality black and white prints. The process uses Roy Harrington's Quad Tone Rip, and curves generated by Cone for individual papers. Those curves are all generated against (using as a base) the gamma 2.2 profile.

             

            This process is in wide use by fine art printers, and is not particularly odd or unusual.

             

            Since we are beginning with a gray-scale, 8-bit image in gamma 2.2, by setting up the PS printer dialog as :

            Photoshop manages colors

            Gamma 2.2

            Relative colormetric

             

            we are effectively saying "no color management - send the document thru as is" and letting the QTR and Cone curves handle all the work.

             

            If there is some other way to turn off color management of the file, and pass it, -completely unaltered- thru to the QTR driver, that would probably correct the situation.

            (ACPU is no help, since a file with a gray gamma 2.2 profile won't save as a .tif.)

             

            So, as it stands, those of us with thousands of dollars invested in dedicated piezography inks and printers have no way at all to print under CS6.

             

            I realize you're trying to protect the users from themselves, but there's a point at which that starts hurting more sophisticated users. Adobe did that when it removed "no color management" requiring the use of a separate program (ACPU) or "same-profile" work-arounds.

             

            Now those works arounds don't work either. If I have not overlooked something obvious (which is quite possible, given my age) then this poses a -serious- problem to a lot of folks. Putting a rubber head on a  hammer keeps the amateurs from smashing their thumbs too... while it makes the hammer otherwise useless for serious carpentry.

             

            If there's a solution, I'd love to hear it, else PLEASE re-consider your decision of several versions ago, and add back in the simple solution: a no color management option in the print dialog.

             

            I thought this was the solution: using the regular gamma 2.2/ 8bit, etc as usual, change the printer dialog to "printer manages colors" and in the driver dialog (print settings), under Color matching, choose QuadToneRIP instead of Colorsync.

             

            I've just run off a test comparing that output to one I did the "standard" way using CS5, and they appear identical.

             

            But -everything is identical: the curves supplied for the QTR papers have no effect whatsoever.

             

             

            I tried Adobe Color Print Utility, but it just crashes with error -2582.

             

             

            I'm afraid right now that using CS5 is the only way I can find to continue using Piezography.

             

             

            Someone please prove me wrong!  I'd really like to use PS CS6.

             

             

             

            Thanks.

            • 3. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
              georgecp

              Chris,

               

              I want to add my two cents here....while Tvalleau may have found a work-around to address his specifc issue.  I also print with Cone all-black inks as so many thousands of people who are interested in this issue and may not yet be aware of the change you and the adobe team are releasing with CS/6.

               

              I understand that you and the development team have an enormously complex challenge in navigating multiple CM standards across apple, microsoft, epson, etc; however, this change of preventing all profiles from being shown on output colorspace conversion smacks of limiting user choice and workflow options in the name of "protecting" a class of users from doing something harmful to their images

               

              Adobe already has released and refined LIghtroom; a wonderful application that does many things "for the user" in the name of basic Color management automation and simplification.  Photoshop, however, has always been reserved for people who puruse their work with a maxium amount of control over their editing and workflow decisions.  By taking away this choice, you are harming an entire class of users who wan/need/rely upon maximum control over their imaging and workflow options.  PLEASE RECONSIDER.

               

              If you remember the color management debacle of CS/4 with Epson and Apple, the combined changes of all three companies cost hundreds of thousands of users tons of wasted ink, paper, and time simply to produce images the way they intended.  We all have some pain go  along with the continued "gain" as digital imaging evolves.  However, this time, I do not understand why you cannot simply allow users the ability to select any profile they want for output conversion when printing............don't protect us, ENABLE us.

               

              Chris, please help us understand this decision and let us know if you and the team will reconsider it.

               

              Thank you,

              George Pappas

              • 4. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                georgecp Community Member

                Chris, I want to make sure that you see this so I am sending directly to you.  Would like to hear your thoughts on this..Thanks, George

                 

                 

                Chris,

                 

                I want to add my two cents here....while Tvalleau may have found a work-around to address his specifc issue.  I also print with Cone all-black inks as so many thousands of people who are interested in this issue and may not yet be aware of the change you and the adobe team are releasing with CS/6.

                 

                I understand that you and the development team have an enormously complex challenge in navigating multiple CM standards across apple, microsoft, epson, etc; however, this change of preventing all profiles from being shown on output colorspace conversion smacks of limiting user choice and workflow options in the name of "protecting" a class of users from doing something harmful to their images

                 

                Adobe already has released and refined LIghtroom; a wonderful application that does many things "for the user" in the name of basic Color management automation and simplification.  Photoshop, however, has always been reserved for people who puruse their work with a maxium amount of control over their editing and workflow decisions.  By taking away this choice, you are harming an entire class of users who wan/need/rely upon maximum control over their imaging and workflow options.  PLEASE RECONSIDER.

                 

                If you remember the color management debacle of CS/4 with Epson and Apple, the combined changes of all three companies cost hundreds of thousands of users tons of wasted ink, paper, and time simply to produce images the way they intended.  We all have some pain go  along with the continued "gain" as digital imaging evolves.  However, this time, I do not understand why you cannot simply allow users the ability to select any profile they want for output conversion when printing............don't protect us, ENABLE us.

                 

                Chris, please help us understand this decision and let us know if you and the team will reconsider it.

                 

                Thank you,

                George Pappas

                • 5. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                  tvalleau Community Member

                  A much better expression of the concern than mine was, George. Thanks. I'm interested in hearing the rationale as well.

                   

                  Tracy

                  • 6. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                    Alan Vlach

                    I would like to add my support to this issue which is very adequately described by George. This is an issue for anyone using Piezography, Quadtone Rip, or anyone using the Precision Digital Negative method to print digital negatives for alternative processes. The Adobe Color Print Utility is a cumbersome alternative and does not provide the ability to change margins.

                    • 7. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                      tvalleau Community Member

                      I thought this was the solution: using the regular gamma 2.2/ 8bit, etc as usual, change the printer dialog to "printer manages colors" and in the driver dialog (print settings), under Color matching, choose QuadToneRIP instead of Colorsync.

                       

                      I've just run off a test comparing that output to one I did the "standard" way using CS5, and they appear identical.

                       

                      But unfortunately, -everything- is identical: the curves supplied for the QTR papers have no effect whatsoever.

                       

                       

                      I tried Adobe Color Print Utility, but it just crashes with error -2582. (specifically: 4/15/12 2:01:52.020 PM Adobe Color Printer Utility: PlotISImageRef 0x2d82003a InContext 0x100367600 in {10.000000,1.000000,16.000000,16.000000}, inAlign:0, inTransform:0, inFlags:0 failed. (err=-2582) )

                       

                       

                      So the situation, near as I can tell, is simple: you cannot use PS CS6 with Piezography.

                       

                      First, Adobe simply will NOT let the old technique of matching the profile to the document space work: it puts up a dialog say they no longer allow that. That is, no matter -what- you choose, they won't allow you to do it.

                       

                      To emphasize that, they have eliminated any number of profiles from the print dialog, including Gray Gamma 2.2 and AdobeRGB 1998.

                       

                      "Printer manages colors" sends the image thru uncorrected (according to Adobe) and that makes sense, but then QTR will not use any of the PZ curves on it either - every print comes out identical. Setting color matching has no effect.

                       

                      Finally using Adobe Color Print Utility also no longer works, as when trying to print to the QTR, the driver crashes with a -2582 error. (console log: 4/15/12 2:01:52.020 PM Adobe Color Printer Utility: PlotISImageRef 0x2d82003a InContext 0x100367600 in {10.000000,1.000000,16.000000,16.000000}, inAlign:0, inTransform:0, inFlags:0 failed. (err=-2582)

                       

                      [rant on]

                      As it now stands, I'm going to have to keep CS5 around just for Piezography.It's worth it, of course, but having just this last week spent thousands of dollars, (not to mention hundreds of dollars worth of ink & paper uncovering and testing this) only to discover that Adobe's new Photoshop won't work with Piezography isn't the news I wanted to hear.

                       

                      I'd love to be proven wrong; love to look the fool here, in public, if that would allow me to print from CS6.

                       

                      Doesn't Adobe offer Photoshop Elements for the crowd that needs hand-holding? Why cripple Photoshop "pro?"

                       

                      Just answer this question: "Why would I buy a photo program I can't use to print?"

                       

                      Those of us who do high-end photo printing are going to have to find another solution if this issue isn't fixed. Meanwhile, I'll spend the money I -was- going to spend on CS6, on more ink and paper instead, and stick with CS5.

                       

                      [rant off]  sorry, but I just don't udnerstand -why- this change was necessary enough to break a working system.  And, yes, I've started conversations with the third parties involved. 

                       

                      It's just frustrating.

                      • 8. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                        tvalleau Community Member

                        Let me point out that if I didn't care about Photoshop, I wouldn't be here complaining about what I see as an error in it's direction. It's precisely -because I care- (about Photoshop) that I've taken to expressing these things.

                         

                        Let me further note that I've had a number of conversations about this issue over the weekend, (as you might imagine) and here is what I have learned with some certitude:

                         

                        Adobe is not going to change their policy, and that's final. Adobe is going to continue to "simplify" things, according to how Apple and Microsoft dictate. If you/we use third party software, then it's up to those publishers to keep up with Adobe's changes.

                         

                        That's life. Get used to it.

                         

                        Given that I've been in the computer industry for 34 years, I understand that kind of corporate attitude.

                         

                        ... and, given that I've been a photographer for 55 years & using PS for almost 20 of them, (not to mention that I own 27 Adobe software licenses)

                        I also therefore -don't- understand that kind of corporate-think.

                         

                        The "we know what you need better than you do" outlook is growing in the tech industry as the Age of iPhone advances. And just look how well that attitude worked for Apple with FCPX...

                         

                        OK... I going to get out of the way of the tripartide corporate juggernaut, lest I get squished as the annoying bug I apparently am... There is no point in me continuing in this forum, as the conclusion is foregone.

                         

                        I have started group postings in the Quad Tone RIP and Piezography forums on Yahoo, hoping that Roy or Jon will be able to provide a solution.

                         

                        Meanwhile, I've returned to using CS5.

                        • 9. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                          tvalleau wrote:

                           

                          I thought this was the solution: using the regular gamma 2.2/ 8bit, etc as usual, change the printer dialog to "printer manages colors" and in the driver dialog (print settings), under Color matching, choose QuadToneRIP instead of Colorsync.

                           

                          I've just run off a test comparing that output to one I did the "standard" way using CS5, and they appear identical.

                           

                          But unfortunately, -everything- is identical: the curves supplied for the QTR papers have no effect whatsoever..

                           

                          I'll start by saying I haven't tried this process myself, as I do essentially no B&W work, but I'm always intrigued to learn new things.  And I do posess some knowlege of color management and share your three and  a half decades in computers as well.  I've even had some experience converting grayscale to color in my own applications (e.g., for display of a grayscale image on an RGB monitor).

                           

                          Specifically, you've chosen "printer manages colors" but are finding that the QuadToneRIP software is being bypassed.  No surprise, really, since QTR Is performing as the color-management engine and you've told Photoshop to bypass color-management.

                           

                          I guess the real question is what Ps CS5 actually DID when you specified a grayscale profile for printer output, and what CS6 DOES when no color management is specified, since apparently the printer is presenting itself as an RGB device regardless of your ink installation and QTR software...

                           

                          We probably need to assume that in both cases the grayscale values are just passed through unhindered as equal R, G, B values (i.e., a grayscale value of 67 ends up going out as (67, 67, 67)...

                           

                          So it really just sounds as if you need to find or craft a color profile that's the functional equivalent of the grayscale profile Gray Gamma 2.2.  Thus there WILL be a conversion from grayscale to color, but when the dust settles it will be just the conversion I've described here - where the values are just duplicated 3 times.  Such a profile, since it is a color profile, will end up in the list of applicable profiles for the printer, and voila - your data should be handed to QTR unscathed.  I suspect John Cone will be working on this.

                           

                          Are your grayscale files 16 bits/channel or 8?

                           

                          Have you tried just converting to another gamma 2.2 profile - say Adobe RGB 1998 - and then when printing choosing that profile?  That would accomplish the pass-through you desire.

                           

                          I realize that beyond being a pain this may not be a valid workaround since with 8 bits/channel file data you could end up with some posterization.  I haven't compared the Gray Gamma 2.2 curves against Adobe RGB 1998.

                           

                          -Noel

                          • 10. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                            nmenghardt

                            Noel,

                             

                            The passthrough you suggested does not work as the print dialog will not display AdobeRGB 1998 as a printer profile.  I didn't think it would work, but I've just confirmed this by trying it myself.  From what Chris has stated and from what we're seeing, it seems as though Adobe is completely cutting out the no color management workthrough altogether and trying to force users to use ACPU.  Unfortunately that software is buggy.

                             

                            -Nick

                            • 11. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                              asu_chic Community Member

                              I don't know if this is of any help, but... I at one time used QTR for 2200 B&W prints and the profiles are still on my computer. I tried the
                              following and was able to pull up all the installed profiles for QTR and the preview reflected the appropriate changes. Note, I did not do any

                              printing as I no longer use the 2200 for B&W.

                              1) choose Photoshop Manages Color (yes, counterintuative)

                              2) choose QTR-RGB Lab, QTR_RGB_Matte_Paper, or QTR_RGB_Photo_Paper for the Printer Profile

                              3) choose your QTR Printer ie Quad2200 and paper size

                              4) under printer dropdowns choose Color Matching (both color sync and vendor matching are now grayed out)

                              5) under Color Matching dropdown choose QuadToneRip

                              All the normal QuadTone printer format and profiles now appears. As stated, I did not do an actual print but

                              when I did a preview, it did indeed seem to reflect the profiles and all appeared as the old QTR. Please

                              let us know if this works and how it might apply to the Cone profiles/system as this is rather important

                              to all of us that print B&W.

                               

                              asu_chic

                              • 12. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                nmenghardt wrote:

                                 

                                 

                                The passthrough you suggested does not work as the print dialog will not display AdobeRGB 1998 as a printer profile.

                                 

                                What profiles DO show up in that condition then?

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                  asu_chic Community Member

                                  Noel,

                                  I see what is being said and it appears that only print profiles are now available, gamma, display and colorspace profiles are not an option.

                                  I do see that my copy of Eric Chan's GrayGamma22Print profile is an option since it is a print profile. All other gamma profiles are no longer

                                  available.

                                   

                                  asu_chic

                                  • 14. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                    So if I understant you correctly, Eric Chan may have produced a profile such as what I described above, and it's available to you when printing? 

                                     

                                    What happens when you print to it?  Does the QTR work?

                                     

                                    Is it available to you when printing a grayscale image?

                                     

                                    Is this profile well-known among the Piezography community?  Did Eric publish it publicly?  If not can you share it?

                                     

                                    I'm just making obvious common-sense connections here, since it seems there has been a disconnect somewhere.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                      asu_chic Community Member

                                      Noel,

                                      As I indicated previously I no longer print B&W from the 2200 so I have not tried this on QTR printing. The profile was created

                                      by Eric back when the 3800 first came out and was used for AWB printing and is very effective. Eric now creates his profiles without

                                      this workaround however, I still have the profile and still use it for all AWB printing as it is dead on as far as I can tell. I just covert my

                                      PS file to GreyGamma22print as part of my BW work flow.  Let me search on my drives and see if I can find the actual download. I

                                      don't think it is on Eric's site any longer as he later by passed this step in his work flow. It does create a 2.2 gamma print profile however

                                      and may just be what you are looking for as it does show up as a print option in the CS6Beta. I'll report back as soon as I know if I still

                                      have the download. Also, as I stated in a prior post, using the QTR lab, matte or photo print profile also grays out both the sync and

                                      the vendor printer profiles. Has anyone had the chance to see if this is perhaps turning  off the color management???

                                       

                                      asu_chic

                                      • 16. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                        asu_chic Community Member

                                        Noel,

                                        I have a zip for the GrayGamma22print file but cannot see a way to attach here. Please advise.

                                        As an additional note, if I recall, Eric was using this to convert files for use in QDR right before

                                        the AWB came about so it may be something you can use.

                                         

                                        asu_chic

                                        • 17. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          If you want to eMail it to me at NCarboni@ProDigitalSoftware.com, I can host it and post the link here so that others can try it.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                            asu_chic Community Member

                                            Noel,

                                            It's on it's way.

                                            Thanks,

                                             

                                            asu_chic

                                            • 19. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                              Noel Carboni Community Member

                                              Thanks.  For those who would like to try to see if this profile will enable printing with color management through QTR, here's a link to the above-mentioned profile:

                                               

                                              http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/GrayGamma22Print.icc.zip

                                               

                                              On a Windows system, copy the file to C:\Windows\system32\spool\drivers\color and restart Photoshop to test.

                                               

                                              Good luck!

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                tvalleau Community Member

                                                Here's a version of the null-transform that does seem to work for Piezography, (which is concerned only with maintaining the 2.2 gamma, and not any colors) courtesy of Jon Cone:

                                                 

                                                (I had tried converting to sRGB this weekend, but whatever I chose for a printer profile was not accepted. I did not try Wide Gamut, and that's what worked.)

                                                 

                                                So:

                                                 

                                                1) work in Gray Gamma 2.2;

                                                2) convert image to sRGB;

                                                3) choose "Photoshop manages colors"

                                                4) choose "Wide Gamut RGB" as the printer profile

                                                 

                                                 

                                                all else as usual.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                I ran a couple of prints this morning testing this, and eye-balling the output (compared to known good test prints done thru CS5) it looks correct, and as expected.

                                                • 21. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                  nmenghardt Community Member

                                                  Jon Cone has posted to piezography.com instructions for printing with piezography and QTR - http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/blog/piezography-technical/photoshop-cs6-betamac/

                                                   

                                                  1. You should continue to work in a grayscale Gamma of 2.20 because this is the interpreted response that Piezography produces when used with the Piezography K7 profiles.
                                                  2. Before printing, convert your image to sRGB or Adobe RGB 1998 as both of these use an internal Gamma of 2.20. Leave as a grayscale and do not adjust the color.
                                                  3. Printing from CS6, select Photoshop Manages Colors and select the Adobe Wide Gamut profile from the Profiles menu. This will allow Color Management to take place although it will not affect the rgb Grayscale because Adobe Wide Gamut also uses an internal Gamma of 2.20.
                                                  4. Print through QTR as usual…
                                                  • 22. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                    Cool!  That's pretty much what I said in post 9, though he's chosen a different Adobe profile.

                                                     

                                                    I would be interested to know whether this could lead to posterization, though, when printing 8 bits/channel grayscale images...  You might want to try printing some perfect gradients and see if you can see any banding.

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 23. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                      nmenghardt Community Member

                                                      Right, but I figured get the word out from The Man.

                                                       

                                                      I will run some tests with CS5 and CS6beta as soon as the lab is no longer in use by classes and update this post.

                                                       

                                                      -Nick

                                                      • 24. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                        tvalleau Community Member

                                                        FWIW, Jon and I worked on this over the weekend and early today, and I posted the results above. He was kind enough to mention that in his blog. There are other solutions he's going to work on, and I've suggested a few as well, but the upshot is that will wait until CS6 is out of beta before devoting any more energy to it. At least for now, there's a work around. And now I have to go throw out a huge stack of test prints I ran this weekend.  :-)

                                                        • 25. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                          Alan Vlach Community Member

                                                          If you assign the profile to sRGB in Photoshop then execute print, the document profile is sRGB IEC61966-2.1. If you also select this as the printer profile, you get a warning message that says "No color management is not supported". Hit cancel and it lets you print using that profile in spite of the warning. The result using this technique looks the same as that printed in CS5.

                                                          • 26. Re: Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing
                                                            Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                            Has anyone tried just printing the grayscale document using the profile asu_chic provided?

                                                             

                                                            -Noel