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OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?

Guru ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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CS6 is out, the best roundup I've seen is at InDesign Secrets.  It all looks great especially creating forms!  BTW if you want to moan about the endnotes ommision I truly sympathise with you but start a new thread!

However just for fun my question is - what is the CS6 equivalent to the universally despised and never used Content Grabber tool, aka as the "Donut"?

My pick is it's the Content Collector and Placer Tools.  I haven't used it, but just looking at it my first thought is why the heck can't you just use the standard selection tool?  And why two tools?  Perhaps it's different in actual practise.  I don't know.  But it sure looks awkward....

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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This is what happens when you see incomplete previews of not-yet released software...

I expect you'll get real demonstrations of some of these new features, like the Content Collector/Placer/Conveyor in the official rollout announcement that coming.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Isn't the frustration with the Content Grabber (donut) that you keep running into it by accident, and click on it inadvertently when you try to click on the middle of an image?

I don't think the Content Collector is going to have that particular problem...I think Adobe learned a lesson about adornments...

Anyhow, it's your question, but is it supposed to be "What has Adobe done to break existing workflows in subtle ways?"

I kind of wonder if that's going to end up being that Cmd-1,Cmd-2,Cmd-3 are all multiplied from what they used to be now that 100% really is actual size...

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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I think this may be a new record for fastest complaint about a new version.

Seriously, wait til you get your hands on it. Is it perfect? No, but there are some compelling features.

Here's my top 10, FWIW: http://bit.ly/IjrPvp

Bob

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LEGEND ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Geeze, Bob!

First you say:

I think this may be a new record for fastest complaint about a new version.

And then you turn around and give us your top ten complaints?!:

Here's my top 10, FWIW: http://bit.ly/IjrPvp

That's just a little over the top! 🙂

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Ah, John is in rare form today!

Bob

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Bob Levine quothe:

Forms Designers Rejoice. Your Pleas Have Been Heard.

The catchphrase for CS5/5.5 could have been "E-pub Designers Rejoice". The one for CS4 surely would be "Flash Designers Rejoice". Only going back as far as CS3, there was reason for book designers to rejoice.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Yeah…no endnote, footnote or any other long document love in this release.

Bob

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People's Champ ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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I don't understand how "split window" is different form the already

existing "Add a new window"?

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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An ominous phrase to see pop up in a New Feature list:

"This bug has been fixed in CS6." (http://indesignsecrets.com/heres-what-we-love-about-indesign-cs6.php)

To me, this means that

(a) Adobe acknowledges something is a bug, but

(b) chooses not to fix it in the version of ID where this bug was found, and this

(c) gives old version users their ol' "well you gotta update for that" company line. (I used something else they were giving their constituency, but this sounds -- a bit -- nicer.)

I'm also missing speed comparisons. I've abandoned the question of "is it ...?": How much slower than CS5.5 is CS6, on the same computer?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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An ominous phrase to see pop up in a New Feature list:

"This bug has been fixed in CS6." (http://indesignsecrets.com/heres-what-we-love-about-indesign-cs6.php)

To me, this means that

(a) Adobe acknowledges something is a bug, but

(b) chooses not to fix it in the version of ID where this bug was found, and this

(c) gives old version users their ol' "well you gotta update for that" company line. (I used something else they were giving their constituency, but this sounds -- a bit -- nicer.)

Jongware, I think this is unfair.

It should not be unexpected.

Adobe's software development practices are quite similar to those throughout the industry, but basically:

1. Do development on the trunk

2. Branch the tree for a major release

3. Fix bugs on the trunk first

4. If warranted, backport the fix to the branch

The only real question should be what the criteria for (4) are.

Go back and look at the extensive release notes that Adobe publishes for InDesign (and those release notes are great! Can you name another commercial software package in this industry that gives you this kind of visibility into bugs fixed?), and you'll get an idea of what can be fixed in maintenance updates.

You can see it's all over the map. Some are obvious major issues that only affect a narrow segment (7.0.1 corrected huge problems for German and Swedish but was irrelevant elsewhere), others are much more significant, and some are quite minor.

My understanding is that for InDesign, the bugfixes that get backported are those that meet all of these criteria: a) are sufficiently narrow in scope that they can be backported without destabilizing the product; this is a judgement call and a balancing act, but a lot depends on internal details we cannot see b) re requested by a major customer, or a significant number of minor customers, or are identified internally as high profile issues.

Frankly, I'm often surprised at some of the bugfixes that seem to make it in to maintenance releases. It seems like they are pretty liberal with the criteria. But they can't backport everything, and that's a huge amount of development effort.

So, it is not the Adobe "chooses not to fix it," it's that they choose to fix it and choose not to bend over backwards to backport the fix to a prior version; at least sometimes they choose that. This is a reasonable allocation of scarce resources. I'd much rather have 10 bugs fixed in CS6 than 5 bugs fixed in CS5.5 and CS6.

In my book, that's reasonable. But also in my book, we budget for the paying for the new version and don't expect the old version to be updated to fix new bugs (in my case, we purchase volume licensing maintenance). Adobe would like everyone to do that, of course, and hence the subscription model and Creative Cloud etc., etc.

In any case, though, if you have a bug you want backported, you should tell Adobe Support loudly and clearly. Because that's the way the system works.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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In some cases Adobe says it can't fix a bug until the next release, then someone comes along and gets lot of people to report the bug and Adobe back track and fix the bug.

http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/restore-style-mapping-presets-report-this-bug

Then was fixed

http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/style-mapping-bug-fixed-with-604-update

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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Call me gray and weary, but the way the system works seems to be to concentrate on offering brand new features at a steady pace, rather than to fix old bug-ridden ones.

From a pure marketing point-of-view I cannot deny this makes more sense than "New in CS6! Everything you already had in CS5, but with the Bugs Fixed!"

From a customer point-of-view, it's grade up or shut up.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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I've not tried InDesign CS6 yet but here's my take on some of the noted new features

Creating Interactive Forms

So what? You get a "Sample Library" you get some additions to the Buttons panel? Big whoop. I bet it doesn't work very well for complex forms.

Alternate Layouts

Sounds great, I'm not sure if the alternate layouts are dynamic (make one change in one layout and it happens in the other, or if content can be unlinked between documents, or if they're standalone documents residing in one document?) But it sounds promising.

Liquid Layout

An improvement to "Layout Adjustment" by the looks of it.

Content Collector/Content Placer tools

A fancy Copy and Paste - that a lot of people can't really see the point of this feature

On-object Link Status and Control

They added a node to the frame to let you know if a link isn't working - AMAZING

Primary Text Frame

Finally got the Master Text Frame working properly - and renamed it

Text Frames that Auto-Size

Something that a plugin developer did a while ago - it was good, looks like they've adapted it.

Flexible Columns

Great - it seems to be related to the Text Frame Auto size though.

Still can't have different WIDTHS for each column though!

Improved EPUB 2 Export, new EPUB 3 Export

To be expected - it wasn't great in CS5.5 and the new stuff for Epub 3 is a work in progress

Grayscale Preview and Grayscale PDF Export

Well about time - only took them about 10 years

Align to Key Object

Function taken from Illustrator - it's not a big deal - you could make a Key Object by locking an object before - don't see the difference here

The Little Things

User Interface tweaks - Wow! They used title case


Placeholder text language options - AMAZING can get that from the web - took a few seconds


Split Window- added another icon to split windows - why?


Complex Calculations in Dialog Boxes and Panels - WOW - a computer doing calculations

Digital Publishing workspace - they put a bunch of useless tools (probably the wrong set of tools into a workspace - you can do that yourself?)

Export to PNG (with transparency) - GREAT can't wait to see what pancake way it exports this - I'll probably still have to export to PDF and save as PDF from photoshop for better quality.

Extension Manager Sets - Eh?

Accurate screen sizing - seems like they fixed a bug

Keeps with Spans and Splits - Fixed another bug

Recent Fonts List - AMAZING

Save as IDML- Finally make it intuitive for new users!!!

PANTONE PLUS SERIES color swatch libraries - you can download and install those yourself ...

Name Ranges in XLSX files - Fixed another bug

Export to Interactive As Pages - Fixed the Spreads bug as always on!

Package files includes overlay assets - Surely this should have been already - looks like another Bug Fix.

Overall - I don't see "New Features" I see mostly Old Features Updated and dressed up - Plus a Lot of "Bug Fixes" since CS5.5

Will CS5.5 get thes fixes? OR even CS5? I doubt it.

Nothing really wowing me here.


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Engaged ,
Apr 23, 2012 Apr 23, 2012

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I have to agree with the general consensus - nothing really worth upgrading for in Indesign CS6. Of course a lot of us will upgrade to stay current with suppliers and other businesses, but this is really the ONLY reason we're upgrading.

While we all understand that tablet publishing is important, or will become more important, somehow Adobe manage to miss that the vast majority of work done with Indesign is destined for print. It will be a long time before the balance swings in favour of tablet publishing... if ever.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Well I have an upgrade available for the next 2 versions, and I won't be upgrading to CS6 until I've seen some reports and issues from users with CS6 "new" features.

Reckon I'll give it 3 months from release date, at least.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Eugene Tyson wrote:

Well I have an upgrade available for the next 2 versions, and I won't be upgrading to CS6 until I've seen some reports and issues from users with CS6 "new" features.

How do you figure that? Adobe has made it clear that once 2013 rolls around only current versions can upgrade to the new one.

Bob

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Bob Levine wrote:

How do you figure that? Adobe has made it clear that once 2013 rolls around only current versions can upgrade to the new one.

Bob

I'm on CS5.5 now. We somehow got a deal of 2 upgrades, one to Cs6 and one to whatever is after that - or perhaps just paid for it in advance, I'm not sure of the details.

But given past releases of InDesign, they can be buggy, and I will wait to find out if it's something that can possibly affect the workflow. Given I'm the only one that uses the software here, I can't really take the chance that something buggy slows down production - so I will be waiting to find out.

Just going on past experience. And it's not a "dig" at Adobe, I do the same with all software. I generally wait to see what is buggy and needs fixing before I commit to installing.

I will probably try the trial version myself at home.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Eugene:

But given past releases of InDesign, they can be buggy, and I will wait to find out if it's something that can possibly affect the workflow. Given I'm the only one that uses the software here, I can't really take the chance that something buggy slows down production - so I will be waiting to find out.

Realistically, I think you have to install the new version and do your testing against it.

Not necessarily move your production work to it, but you take the upgrade, you install it, and you try it out.

I guess you can let other people do your testing for you, but then I don't think you can fairly complain when there are bugs no one has caught...

Of course there is a lag behind bugs being found, reported, and fixed.

For the pessimist, the early-adopter CS6 bugs will be fixed in CS7.

For the optimist, they'll be fixed in maintenance dot-release 8.0.1.

For everyone else, it'll be somewhere in between.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Given past experiences, I won't be upgrading on release date, realistically. CS5.5 is working as intended, I'll upgrade when I deem it safe to.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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For the record - I'm delighted things are moving towards the Tablet devices in InDesign.

I'm just furious that long document features have been neglected, and this has been happening since before "Tablet" and "Interactive" options were added to InDesign.

It's been too long. Why can't they update both aspects of the software?

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Here’s the best suggestion I can make for you, Eugene:

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=prerelease_interest

Bob

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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You need to come to PepCon in San Francisco, and do an IGNITE session like Tony Hammer did last year about having PDF Form tools in InDesign! He did a wonderful poem which brought hundreds of people to their feet applauding (and caused InDesign product manager Chris Kitchener to realize that they needed to try to add that feature to CS6 even though it wasn't on the roadmap).

If you can create excitement about footnotes and endnotes, you've got it made! 😉

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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Why aren't they looking at the own Feature Request forums though? Why do I have to get them excited about it? Why do I have travel thousands of miles and spends thousands of Euros to get them to listen to something they should done 6 years ago?

Since 2005 I've been putting in requests on the Adobe wishlist to improve long document features. I know that many many many others have done so too.

On top of this 6-7 year campaign I've to go to Pepcon, write a poem, create excitement, and embarrass the Adobe team into improving the software...

C'mon - yanking my leg aren't you

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Community Expert ,
Apr 24, 2012 Apr 24, 2012

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I might as well say it now - I've to pay a lot more €€€€€ in Europe for the exact same software.

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