23 Replies Latest reply: May 6, 2012 12:01 AM by Jeff Schewe RSS

    Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5

    david k Community Member

      I use this option (in earlier CS verisons) when printing digital negatives on transparency film on my Epson 3880. There are a few work-arounds, including a printer utility from Adobe (which only works on tIff files, so it's limitied).

       

      But why, oh why did they get rid of this option in the first place. Did someone just decide, gee, I don't think that's a feature we want anymore in our program, so, puff, it's gone? I hate it when program 'updates' make my work harder instead of easier. 

       

       

      Regards, David

        • 1. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
          Jeff Schewe Community Member

          Because the OS print pielines basically dis-allow it...actually only the Mac completely disables it, but it's discourged on Windows.

          • 2. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
            david k Community Member

            Jeff, I don't understand when you say

             

                      "Because the OS print pielines basically dis-allow it . . . but it's discourged on Windows." ???

             

            Can you explain this a bit more?

             

            Thanks, David

            • 3. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
              Jeff Schewe Community Member

              The new OSX 6.6.x and Lion don't allow sending untagged image data to a printer. So, Photoshop would have to violate the OS level APIs to make it work. Windows also discourages sending untagged data but doesn't prevent it. But for cross platform usability the No Color Adjustment was removed from both OS's.

               

              If you want it back, take it up with Apple...Adobe didn't pul it out to be mean, they did it to be in compliance with the OS APIs.

              • 4. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                david k Community Member

                Thanks Jeff. Good to know the scoop.

                • 5. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                  Hudechrome Community Member

                  I see I can turn it off in CS6. Correct?

                   

                  Edit: At least on PC.

                   

                  Message was edited by: Hudechrome

                  • 6. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                    Was DYP Community Member

                    Jeff Schewe wrote:

                     

                    The new OSX 6.6.x and Lion don't allow sending untagged image data to a printer. So, Photoshop would have to violate the OS level APIs to make it work. Windows also discourages sending untagged data but doesn't prevent it. But for cross platform usability the No Color Adjustment was removed from both OS's.

                     

                    If you want it back, take it up with Apple...Adobe didn't pul it out to be mean, they did it to be in compliance with the OS APIs.

                     

                    So how then can i1Profiler and the Adobe Color Printing Utility send untagged image data to a printer?

                    • 7. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                      Jeff Schewe Community Member

                      Was DYP wrote:

                       

                      So how then can i1Profiler and the Adobe Color Printing Utility send untagged image data to a printer?

                       

                      They are designed to bypass the Colorsync print pipeline...something Photoshop had a real hard time doing until CS5 was released and the No Color Management option was removed.

                      • 8. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                        Was DYP Community Member

                        Are you now saying that CS5 does not bypass the Colorsync print pipeline when Photoshop Manages Color is choosen?  Or, if are saying that CS5 now does bypass the Colorsync print pipeline then what does removing the No Color Management option have to do with it?

                        • 9. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                          Hudechrome Community Member

                          Never mind. It still is unavailable.

                          • 10. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                            Jeff Schewe Community Member

                            Was DYP wrote:

                             

                            Are you now saying that CS5 does not bypass the Colorsync print pipeline when Photoshop Manages Color is choosen?

                             

                            No, regardless of whether or not you have Photoshop Manages color or have Print Manages Color, on the Mac CS5/CS6 print pipeline, Colorsync is still involved...if you look at the print driver when Printer Manages Color is set, you can choose Colorsync or Epson Color Controls (I presumt Canon is the same) in the print driver. Even if you choose Epson Color Controls, Colorsync impacts the print pipeline.

                             

                            But in either case, Colorsync makes it impossible to do both. That's what changed–Colorsync makes it impossible to double color manage. As a result it made it impossible (or really, REALLY difficult) to send image data that is unmanages, hense the removal of the No Color Management option.

                            • 11. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                              Hudechrome Community Member

                              Ok, that's Colorsync, which isn't a factor in PC. So why dump it on PC? Good for the goose, good for the gander?

                               

                              Printer profiling becomes more of a pain. Either do it with a predecessor of CS5, or use ACPU, which, unless you do it all the time, is likely to be missed down the line.

                               

                              It seems that Adobe is hell bent on throwing roadblocks to people's workflows.

                               

                              Somebody there needs to read Richard Persig: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" Pay attention to the chapter on "Gumption".

                              • 12. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                Hudechrome wrote:

                                 

                                Ok, that's Colorsync, which isn't a factor in PC. So why dump it on PC? Good for the goose, good for the gander?

                                 

                                Because while it's not prohibited on Windows, it's discouraged (meaning that the best print practice for both platforms should be the same from the standpoint of Adobe).

                                 

                                 

                                Hudechrome wrote:

                                 

                                Printer profiling becomes more of a pain. Either do it with a predecessor of CS5, or use ACPU, which, unless you do it all the time, is likely to be missed down the line.

                                 

                                Or print from your color management application–which is what you SHOULD be doing, ya know? It ain't Adobe's job to hack the OS level print pipeline...

                                • 13. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                  Was DYP Community Member

                                  Jeff, your comments are interesting but here is my take on it.  My opinion here has a lot to do with what I figured out in regards to the Canon IPF drivers and their special cases file to identify all applications that use Apple's new printing pipeline, one (the pipeline) that as I understand it is required for 16bit apps.

                                   

                                  As it appeared to me when this new pipeline was implemented very few printer drivers worked correctly with this new printing pipeline, which as implemented correctly worked like this. When this pipeline works correctly choosing printing with application manages color or in the case of the ACPU, and i1Profiler with No Color Management the driver defaults to ColorSync under Color Matching, then the driver is also forced to not manage color. When the printer drivers did not work correctly the driver was not being force to not do color management and with implication on ColorSync by default there was no way to change settings in the driver. This resulted in the famous double profiling.

                                   

                                  Epson had problems early on with this but has since corrected these. Canon took another approach and required the application to be listed in a special cases file. Both now turn off CM in the driver when application manages color is selected or in the case of the ACPU, and i1Profiler with No Color Management. You are correct in that ColorSync is involved but when implemented correctly CM is disabled in the driver.

                                   

                                  Granted with all the other ways to print non CM profiling targets it is somewhat of a mute point to have No Color Management in PS, but as I mentioned above I see no reason why it could not now be implemented. I can understand with what was going on at the time why the PS team choose to remove it.

                                   

                                  To the OP. I would try assigning a profile (AdobeRGB) and then choose that profile (creating a null transformation) when printing used Photoshop Manages Color. This will still not give you all controls in the printer driver, but now CM will not be implemented in the driver. Now if only Adobe would allow you to select a profile when choosing Printer Manages Color so you could have all controls in the printer driver back and have your null transformation.

                                   

                                  Of course that would negate what appears to have been the attempt as idiot proofing the whole printing flow by Apple.

                                  • 14. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                    Jeff, ACPU is an Adobe workaround that I learned from Eric Chan's website concerning his offer to run profiles. In CS3, No color management is the option which is used when running profles. Unfortunately, he has ended that program but here is the link:

                                     

                                    http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/rgb_profile_instructions.html

                                     

                                    So, I don't get your potint of view at all.

                                    • 15. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                      Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                      Hudechrome wrote:

                                       

                                      So, I don't get your potint of view at all.

                                       

                                      ACPU is a printing utility with a few lines of code that can send untagged image data directly to the printer and bypass the OS level color management. If the OS level changes, it's pretty easy to update ACPU to stay current. Photoshop is over 4 million lines of code (prolly 5 million now) and very difficult to update because you can't just do a print dialog update is the OS changes. That's why Adobe decided to pull No Color Management because it was so prone to break. That's why they released ACPU which is free and easier to update. Adobe, Apple, MSFT, Canon, Epson and I believe HP are all part of a working group that tries to put forth what's called Best Print Practices...Apple's print pipeline now mandates that general applications don't send untagged image data to printer, MSFT agrees with the concept but hasn't actually enforced the untagged image data rule like Apple has. Photoshop, being a cross platform aplication, decided to abide by the print pipeline rules and yanked the No Color Manangement from Photoshop (it was never in Lightroom).

                                       

                                      So, what part of my "view" don't you get?

                                      • 16. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                        Hudechrome Community Member

                                        "So, what part of my "view" don't you get?"

                                         

                                        The part before this more expansive explanation!

                                         

                                        Thanks, Jeff.

                                        • 17. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          Apple seems rather more ruthless about blazing forward with making changes that break compatibility than Microsoft, don't they?  I guess it makes sense, given that they're a hardware company rather than a software company.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                            Was DYP Community Member

                                            Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                             

                                             

                                            "ACPU is a printing utility with a few lines of code that can send untagged image data directly to the printer and bypass the OS level color management."

                                             

                                            ACPU and for that matter i1Profiler sends print image data (untagged I assume) through ColorSync and the print driver the exact same way as Lightroom and PSCS5 do when Application Manages Color is selected when printing. The only difference is that LR and PS do not allow you to send untagged image data.

                                             

                                            If you have a print driver that is not correctly written or as in the case of the IPF Canon drivers and the application is not listed in the special cases file, CM will not be turned off in the print driver. It makes no difference whether it is untagged data sent from ACPU or i1Profiler or if it is tagged image data sent from LR or PS.

                                             

                                             

                                            ...Apple's print pipeline now mandates that general applications don't send untagged image data to printer, MSFT agrees with the concept but hasn't actually enforced the untagged image data rule like Apple has.

                                             

                                            Can you prove this with a supporting document?

                                            • 19. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                              Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                              Was DYP wrote:

                                               

                                              Can you prove this with a supporting document?

                                               

                                              Nope...I was told this by engineers familiar with the initiative...

                                               

                                              Was DYP wrote:


                                              ACPU and for that matter i1Profiler sends print image data (untagged I assume) through ColorSync and the print driver the exact same way as Lightroom and PSCS5 do when Application Manages Color is selected when printing. The only difference is that LR and PS do not allow you to send untagged image data.

                                               

                                              ACPU does send the untagged data through Colorsync, but the image data gets converted by Colorsync or ACPU to the printer profile chosen in the print driver as set up in the Print window of ACPU...so, since the document is in the final profile space of the printer, the print driver does nothing (null transform). Then you choose don't manage color in the driver. Exactly how ACPU works with Colorsync to avoid having Colorsync to an unwanted color transform isn't clear (would have to ask the engineer that wrote it), ACPU is clearly doing SOMETHING different than Photoshop and Lightroom when sending the image data to the printer.

                                               

                                              You can see what profile gets embedded when printing from ACPU by setting up the driver and saving a PDF and opening in Photoshop. When I printed to PDF from ACPU after setting up the driver to use Epson Glossy paper on an Epson R3000, the embedded profile in the PDF was SPR3000 Premium Glossy. Which if sent to the printer should result in a null transform. This is similar to the CS5 work around to tag an image with a color space and have that same color space set in Photoshop Manages Color and set the Printer Profile color space to be the same thus bypassing the Colorsync "generic RGB" transform. However, that work around no longer works with Photoshop CS6 (we were warned that this might happen BTW).

                                               

                                              I haven't tried it yet, but it's possible that you could still work around this in CS6 if you take an untagged target, assign the printer profile, then use Photoshop Manages Color with the profile being the same printer profile and then in the driver set do not color manage...actually, scratch that–I just tried that and CS6 pops a warning that "No Color Managment is not supported" when trying to print without the proper color management and to get ACPU with a link to download it. I guess Photoshop got pretty serious about disallowing this sort of printing. Heck, you can't even print to PDF.

                                               

                                               

                                              On the other hand, the simplest solution for me is to simply print out the target using i1Profiler...

                                              • 20. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                                Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                Yeah, MacOS especially still does things to your print values even if you assign the same profile.

                                                • 21. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                  Chris Cox wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Yeah, MacOS especially still does things to your print values even if you assign the same profile.

                                                   

                                                  Yeah, that's what I was afraid of...it worked for some printers (my Epsons) on 10.6.8 and Photoshop CS5. Now with CS6, the assign profile trick can't even be used. But ACPU and my"current" color management apps (meaning Lion compatible) work.

                                                  • 22. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                                    Lundberg02 Community Member

                                                    A simple question after all this: can a printer be profiled on a Mac running 10.7.3? if so, how?

                                                    • 23. Re: Why did Adobe get rid of 'No Color Management' option in CS5
                                                      Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                                      Yes...either use ACPU (Adobe Color Print Utility) or the software that came with you profiling software like i1Profiler...or Photoshop CS4 (or earlier).