32 Replies Latest reply: May 13, 2012 2:04 AM by leslie wand RSS

    Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output

    redprod Community Member

      So I thought that with CS6, pretty much any sequence could ouput via my BlackMagic Intensity Pro, and I didn't have to be in a BM sequence. Well, I have found that I am restricted by resolution and framerate - I have to be in a 720p60 sequence or nothing will output to my TV (which is a 720p TV). This is quite a problem as I am almost exlcusively working in 1080p24 sequences. Am I doing something wrong? Or have I misenterpretted the capabilities? FCP was able to pretty much ouput any seq/frame rate with the card.

       

      -sam

        • 1. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
          Richard M Knight MVP

          Does it matter how the 'default video standard' is set in the BMD Video 9.5 control panel?

           

          Richard Knight

          • 2. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
            redprod Community Member

            No, I tried to change that to 1080p23.98, and it did nothing. And the BM manual said that only FCPX uses that option.

             

            -sam

            • 3. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
              joe bloe premiere Community Member

              redprod,

               

              Has your problem been resolved?

              I am anxious to hear Adobe Mercury Transmit success stories!

               

              What's the best third party hardware for CS6 Adobe Mercury Transmit?

              • 4. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                J. Simon Community Member

                I am anxious to hear Adobe Mercury Transmit success stories!

                 

                Ditto.

                • 5. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                  Ray Tragesser Community Member

                  Trying to understand your frustration....so your trying to send a 720p television a 1080p 23.976 (24p) signal and its not working. So where are you expecting the conversion to take place? The TV or the card? Not sure of the exact model of your TV, but there are quite a few out there that cannot support a 1080p signal. I guess the next question would be....did you ever send a 1080p 23.976 signal to the same TV prior to CS-6?

                   

                  Ray

                  • 6. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                    J. Simon Community Member

                    I would presume the card would handle any necessary conversions from sequence settings to desired output settings.

                     

                    (I would also hope that the card is fully capable of sending out whatever the sequence gives it, without conversion, if that is the desired behavior.)

                    • 7. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                      CSTeam3 Community Member

                      I'm demoing CS6 and had my own thought on this.  Let me see if this helps articulate the problem.

                       

                      The crux of the matter is, in Final Cut Pro as an example, the BM Intensity output is completely independent of whatever sequence settings you use.  This has never been possible and is still not possible in Premiere.

                       

                      In my case, I use an older HD CRT for color correction that only accepts and outputs 1080i and I often edit 23.98 material. The main thing in FCP -- I could always leave my monitor on no matter what I was editing.

                       

                      In Premiere Pro CS5 and earlier, the framerate output of the Intensity always changes to match the BM sequence. Obvious, yes.

                       

                      So I knew I had to only use 29.97 Intensity sequences. I knew if I jumped to a BM sequence I would get a normal picture.  When I jumped back to a regular, say AVCHD 23.98 sequence for instance, it would shut the Intensity output off. It wasn't ideal, but the output signal was simply controlled by whatever sequence I selected.

                       

                      Now, because of CS6's new way of outputting video to the Intensity, unless I always only edit in 29.97 or deselect the Intensity output in the menu, I am constantly having to either shut my monitor off myself, or dig down into some submenu to deselect the Intensity output. Honestly, it's a pain.

                       

                      For me CS6 is a step backwards in video output to the BM Intensity card. 

                      • 8. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                        Ray Tragesser Community Member

                        It sounds like this is more of a monitoring expectation problem rather than a Blackmagic problem. In my suite, I have a Flanders broadcast monitor and also a Panasonic Plasma VT-25. I know first hand what types of signals these monitors can sync too. For illustration purposes, If I were to load up some 5K PAL material in Premiere Pro, I wouldnt expect either monitor to display that content because they simply are not designed to do that. I also wouldnt expect the Blackmagic Card to do the conversion.

                         

                        If you are expecting to put any type of footage (resolution & frame rate) and it comes out through Mercury Transmit and I/O card, I dont believe that is the correct way approach it. If you really need that then I would take a look at a Teranex solution.

                         

                        Please keep us posted on this situation and your experiences. I am very curious how this plays out.

                         

                        Ray

                        • 9. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                          CSTeam3 Community Member

                          Sorry, Ray.  I do expect it because obviously, either the Blackmagic card or Final Cut is already doing exactly some type of conversion at least from 2398 progressive to 29.97 interlaced and it works fine.  

                           

                          I don't know what you're talking about.

                          • 10. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                            redprod Community Member

                            I have same thoughts as CSTeam3 - I expected it to work because it had worked in FCP for me previously. I have a professional HD broadcast monitor I haven't tried it on yet, but I am willing to bet it would work there. The HDTV I am trying to get it to play on is just for client previewing, and we don't really need a top-of-the-line pro monitoring solution there. It's just frusterating because FCP never had any problems with it, and all the prerelease info about mercury transmit led me to believe that Premiere would be able to as well.

                             

                            Even if I had to make a Blackmagic 1080p24 sequence to always edit from it wouldn't be so bad, but even using BM's sequences, I have to use 720p60 or I won't get anything.

                             

                            -sam

                            • 11. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                              Ray Tragesser Community Member

                              No Worries. I am just trying to understand if there is a problem or bug or limitation. Lets go back a moment and try to figure out where the problem is being introduced.

                               

                              1) Premiere Pro

                              2) Mercury Transmit

                              3) Blackmagic Card

                              4) Monitors

                               

                              Is this a new situation introduced by CS-6 or were you able to accomplish this is CS-5.x?

                               

                              I have Premiere and Final Cut on the same system and also the BM Extreme 3D card. The workflow between FC7 and Premiere Pro is certainly different. I find that in Premiere as long as I work in any sequence that the BM card supports, I have no problems. The other variable is back to the monitors being used. If the monitor cant sync to a certain framerate or resolution then its a no go.

                               

                              Ray

                              • 12. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                J. Simon Community Member

                                as long as I work in any sequence that the BM card supports, I have no problems.

                                 

                                That is supposed to be the main benefit of the new Mercury Transmit feature.  ALL sequences are now supported by the BM card.

                                 

                                The question is, will the BM driver offer the user a choice of conversion to a specific format in order to comply with specific monitors capabilities, as well as passing through any signal unaltered.  In my opinion, any third party output card really should offer both options - conversion and pass-through.  A pass-though may not work for some monitors, but the conversion option should work for any sequence with any monitor.

                                • 13. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                  Ray Tragesser Community Member

                                  If you go over to the BM page and take a look at the Intensity Pro technical specs here are the HD specs:

                                   

                                  1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94 and 720p60.

                                   

                                  Pretty Awesome for $199.

                                   

                                  I am not seeing anywhere that mentions that this card will "cross convert" to other formats. It will do a basic HD>SD provided its the same framerate, or capture SD to HD at the same framerate. Not sure why you guys are expecting more from the Mercury Transmit Feature? Its the same hardware card being utilized in a new highly optimized way via the Adope SDK /API. The functionality of the card hasnt changed, just the way Adobe is accessing it.

                                   

                                  What am I missing here?

                                   

                                  Ray


                                   


                                  • 14. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                    redprod Community Member

                                    I think it is mainly the fact that in FCP I could send pretty much any sequence, regardless of framerate or resolution, through the BM card to the 720p TV and it would play back fine. So I know it can be done. I know it's an entirely different process than with Premiere, but just seeing it work 2-3 years ago in FCP, and now with the newest Premiere it still doesn't work, it's frustrating. If FCP was unable to do it, then my expectations would be different.

                                     

                                    -sam

                                    • 15. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                      J. Simon Community Member

                                      Not sure why you guys are expecting more from the Mercury Transmit Feature?

                                       

                                      Not the feature, the card.  I expect Mercury Transmit to pass the video "as is" to the card.  I expect the card to be able to now read that video, even though it's not in a BM sequence, and either send it on "as is", or convert on-the-fly to the desired resolution/frame rate set by the user (as most any Blu-ray player can).  If it can't do the latter (conversion) it's usefulness is minimized somewhat.

                                       

                                      For example, I have a CRT HD for monitoring which is far better than most any consumer flat panel monitor.  But as a CRT set, it can't take 1080p resolution or 23.976 at any resolution.  So for me to use that card, I'd have to convert on the fly to something the set can accept.

                                      • 16. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                        Ray Tragesser Community Member

                                        For $199 not sure expectations are totally realistic. Looking back just a year ago the Teranex boxes were very expensive that would do this real time conversion. I understand the Final Cut comparison with the same card and also the frustration you are having now. The good news is that Blackmagic has aquired Teranex and have drastically cut prices. The bad news is we still have yet to determine if this is a limitation of:

                                         

                                        Premiere Pro

                                        Adobe Mercury Transmit

                                        BM Card

                                        BM Driver

                                        Monitoring

                                         

                                        http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/teranex/

                                        $2000 gets you cross converting all day and night.

                                        • 17. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                          CSTeam3 Community Member
                                          "What am I missing here?"

                                           

                                           

                                          Ray,

                                           

                                          It IS a monitor issue. That's just the point. 

                                           

                                          My monitor won't display anything but 1080i.  The issue is that FCP can overcome this by outputting a display rate that I specify no matter the sequence settings. Premiere can not! Premiere can only pass through what the sequence is set for.  And all this with exactly the same card on exactly the same system!  So I know it's not a limitation of the card.

                                           

                                          Geesh, I feel like we're talking in circles here.  You guys figure it out. Later.

                                          • 18. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                            redprod Community Member

                                            Worth pointing out, when I copy/pasted 4K RED R3D files into a DSLR 720p60 sequence, scale to fit, half res playback, it played back quite nicely on the TV screen with no rendering. No CUDA graphics card, 12 gigs ram on 8 Core Mac Pro. I do have a Red Rocket installed, but I turned it off to see how much of a difference it was making, and it seemed to still be playing pretty well.

                                             

                                            So, if it wasn't for the framerate/resolution sequence issues, this would be pretty amazing.

                                             

                                            -sam

                                            • 19. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                              J. Simon Community Member

                                              For $199 not sure expectations are totally realistic.

                                               

                                              Blu-ray players are now less than $100, and they all do it.

                                              • 20. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                J. Simon Community Member

                                                4K RED R3D files

                                                 

                                                And there's another point.  How many folks using 4K media will actually have a 4K monitor?  You NEED that real time conversion from all output cards.

                                                • 21. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                  Shane_Ross

                                                  FCP changed the output IN THE APP.  If you were running a 1080p 23.98...and you didn't have a monitor that supported that...you could tell FCP to send out a 1080i 29.97 signal.  Then the signal going from FCP to the IO device would be 29.97.  The VIEW>VIdeo Playback was where you changed this.  And you could change it to 720p 59.94 if you wanted, and the 1080p 23.98 signal would be converted by FCP to 720p 59.94.  FCP did that, not the IO devices.

                                                   

                                                  For the record, this is something Avid does too...the locking the output to match the sequence.  The project settings determine the output settings, and they cannot be changed.  You can have the card, via it's interface, change the signal. At least in the AJA Control panel.

                                                   

                                                  When I'm done rendering in COLOR, I'll see how the Kona 3 interacts with CS6...

                                                  • 22. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                    AlexElkins Community Member

                                                    Erm, am I missing something here? As the previous poster mentions, don't you just need to choose your display format in the Blakmagic Control Panel (or whatever it's called - I use Kona)?

                                                     

                                                    In the AJA control panel you have your Primary Format, ie your sequence settings, then your Secondary Format for converting the signal for output to the monitor. If you happen to have a monitor that supports the same format at the sequence settings you can feed it the Primary Format. This is nothing new for FCP users, it's just that FCP lets you change your Secondary Format from inside FCP.

                                                    • 23. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                      Shane_Ross Community Member

                                                      OK...I can get PPro 6 to output 29.97 video from a 23.98 timeline with the AJA Kona 3.  Follow these steps and see if it works for your BMD card.

                                                       

                                                      Go to PREFERENCES and select PLAYBACK.  See your device that has the check mark next to it?  Click on  SETUP.  A small interface will appear that offers VIDEO FORMAT and PIXEL FORMAT.  VIDEO FORMAT will say MATCH SEQUENCE.  Click on that and choose what you want it to output.  In my case, I used a 23.98 1080 sequence, but chose to play out 1080i29.97.  And when I did...it worked fine.  Just like it did in FCP.

                                                       

                                                      See if this works for your BMD card.

                                                      • 25. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                        redprod Community Member

                                                        Shane, thanks for making that blog post. Unfortunately, Blackmagic doesn't have the setup option in the playback menu. Maybe in a future update? I emailed BM about this whole problem a few days ago, but never heard anything. Maybe I need to call them as well.

                                                         

                                                        And Alex, in the system pref menu for the BM Intensity Pro card, there's no way to tell it what primary format to send it out as.

                                                         

                                                        So this seems to be a Blackmagic fault, as Shane has proven that his AJA card can do it.

                                                         

                                                        -sam

                                                        • 26. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                          Ray Tragesser Community Member

                                                          Hi Shane,

                                                           

                                                          Good Detective Work! Thanks.

                                                           

                                                          Is that a feature of just the Aja Kona 3G card or the whole Kona product line? The Kona 3G is $2000 quite a bit more than the $199 Intensity Pro.

                                                           

                                                          Ray T

                                                          • 27. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                            Shane_Ross Community Member

                                                            I'll wager it is the full Kona line. And I have the Kona 3...not 3G.  The LHi is cheaper...IO Express even cheaper. 

                                                             

                                                            There's a reason AJA products are more expensive.  Customer service is one...you encountered another...better software development. They are usually the first to come out with drivers, and good solid ones.  And apparently with more features than the competition.

                                                             

                                                            You get what you pay for.

                                                            • 28. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                              AlexElkins Community Member

                                                              I'm just trying to test this out with my Kona 3 and realised that I have no monitoring options at all, other than the default Adobe ones. AJA don't appear to have released drivers for CS6 yet, so how are you getting it to output to your monitor, Shane? I understand you were on the beta program so perhaps Adobe/AJA have sent you an as yet unreleased driver. If not, how come yours is working??

                                                               

                                                              I just installed the CS5.5 drivers wondering if that would help. It didn't, although I don't have 5.5 installed, which might be the problem there.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              Any thoughts?

                                                              • 29. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                                michaschmidt_germany

                                                                Yep all that is kinda frustrating! And another thing is in my case i have 1080p25 footage and use it ( have to) in a 1080i50 sequence.

                                                                1st issue: a short but really noticaable delay on my external screen. and 2nd issue: i can't see anything that is in the "Source" monitor (cuz it plays back 25p in that one)

                                                                 

                                                                ...well maybe a lil Blackmagic Mini Converter can help? (like the HDMI to SDI or UpDownCross...)

                                                                • 30. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                                  Shane_Ross Community Member

                                                                  Yeah...sorry.  This is a beta plugin. I didn't realize that (well, REMEMBER that) when I did the blog post.  Since CS6 was released, I assumed that the AJA plugins were as well, and they weren't.  Still some things to be locked down.

                                                                   

                                                                  I hope I don't get smacked for posting that blog.  If it comes down, you know that I did.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  • 31. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                                    AlexElkins Community Member

                                                                    Cheers Shane, thanks for clarifying. Guess we have to just wait for AJA then.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Blackmagic Intensity Pro Output
                                                                      leslie wand Community Member

                                                                      to use the local venacular here: Erm, am I missing something here?

                                                                       

                                                                      i'm just moving over fron vegas using two monitors off a gtx and my bm intensity pro playing full hd of whatevers on the timeline.

                                                                       

                                                                      does cs6 behave differently from this? if so how?

                                                                       

                                                                      i'm in pal land