24 Replies Latest reply: May 30, 2012 10:41 AM by Noel Carboni RSS

    Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1

    Noel Carboni Community Member

      The "Defringe All Edges" function has gone missing and some new controls have taken its place.

       

      Here's a side by side comparison of some palm fronds against a bright sky with the new controls on their defaults...  Camera Raw 6.7 on the left with Defringe All Edges set, and Camera Raw 7.1 RC on the right.  There's more color fringing in the new conversion, since the Defringe All Edges doesn't cover up the Bayer artifacts.

       

      Defringe.jpg

       

      In experimenting, I found I can turn the "Green Amount" slider up off zero and move the color range of the "Greens" defringing over into the Cyan-ish area, which mitigates this.

       

      Is it the intention that with the use of these two color range controls we should be able to produce results as good as with the older code and the Defringe All Edges feature enabled?  I'm not saying the newer version isn't as good or better - I'm just trying to understand the intent.

       

      I'm certainly going to need to do some careful comparitive testing to determine the best defaults.

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
          Vit Novak Community Member

          As far as I can see, it works similar as before. There were just two strengths and fixed hue range before (I suppose), now you have separate pair of sliders for 2 hue ranges and finer control of strength. Tried on some Canon SX110 raws and works very well. Old version wasn't effective enough because amount of fringing is sometimes huge on this cheap 10x zoom lens. The same with 400D kit lens. I've been waiting for this for years

           

          However, although authomatic CA removal is working good so far, maybe it would be fine to have slider as an option in lens profile section

          • 2. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
            Noel Carboni Community Member

            Yeah, I've set the defaults for both colors to 1 with some non-standard color-ranges and that seems to be getting the job done as well as the fixed control before.

             

            Interesting how little discussion of this there has been.

             

            -Noel

            • 3. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
              ssprengel MVP

              What to do when there are fringes of red, green, blue, purple AFTER doing Auto-CA?  There need to be more than two Defringing sliders has been my problem with them.

              • 4. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                Vit Novak Community Member

                This version is out only for several days and it wasn't announced on sites like dpreview etc. I discovered it today after reading your post

                 

                As about defringe slider in local adjustments someone asked a few days ago (for LR) - it works like sliders for sharpness, NR etc in local adjustments - correcting global amount of defringe for local area - so numbers are different

                • 5. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                  SSprengel, do you find specifically that the new controls don't allow you to eliminate it, while the old one did?

                   

                  I seem to be able to get color (e.g., the sky color in the image above) in tigher places than I used to, so it may not be all bad.  Better subject color could offset a little fringing and be a net gain.

                   

                  -Noel

                  • 6. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                    ssprengel MVP

                    The old Defringe All Edges didn’t usually get rid of it all, and just somewhat desaturated wider areas of the image.

                     

                     

                     

                    The new controls do a better job at eliminating colored fringes for me, but there are not enough colors, sometimes.

                    • 7. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                      areohbee Community Member

                      If you run out of colors, only recourse is defringing with local paint, which does not know the color contraints that the globals abide by.

                      • 8. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                        Hi Rob,

                         

                        Camera Raw 7.1 finally presented the controls to us Photoshop users that you were talking about the other day in the context of Lightroom.  And now it's clear what you were talking about. 

                         

                        What you say makes sense, though what doesn't make all THAT much sense is a design that presents one color-range for one set of controls but unconstrained color for the other set.  

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                          areohbee Community Member

                          Hey Noel,

                           

                          I'm not qualified to answer definitively, but my .02: the local defringing has a built in eye-dropper - i.e. it's "adaptive" - i.e. whatever color is fringing in the painted area is the color you're trying to remove. So, the globals need constraints, but the locals - not so much.

                           

                          I've mostly used the local defringing - carefully and successfully. The globals often do more harm than good still, unless the target fringe is really a consistent/unique color... - has been my experience. "Mostly blue" fringing  around tree leaves in a blue sky is hard to remove with the global... "Truly purple" fringing is more easily removed...

                           

                          R

                          • 10. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                            Noel Carboni Community Member

                            Okay, I've had more time to look at this...  It seems to me that Photoshop CS6's Camera Raw 7.1 beta is not as good as its predecessors at achieving a balance between good color and defringing.

                             

                            Note the following three images, excerpted from a Canon 40D raw file, which can be found here.

                             

                            Converted in Ps CS4, ACR 5.7:

                            CFCS4.png

                             

                            Converted in Ps CS5, ACR 6.7:

                            CFCS5.png

                             

                            Converted in Ps CS6, ACR 7.1 beta:

                            CFCS6.png

                             

                            The specific color fringing I'm struggling with is the remnant Bayer pattern colors.

                             

                            Here's a 400% zoom in on several problem areas.  You can see the color-fringing I'm talking about on the left, and amongst the dark letters.

                            CFCS456.png

                             

                            Now, it's clear that the results are dependent on the settings, but I guess the one thing I want to point out is that for the ACR 7.1 beta conversion I have actually dialed-in some defringing, which is more aggressive than the out-of-box default - and I'm not sure I want to make it more aggressive.

                             

                            It seems to me the "Defringe All Edges" feature better compensated for the Bayer Pattern color fringing than this new code does.  I will continue to experiment to see if I can find a better set of defaults...

                             

                            Defringe:  All Edges was a good feature.  I'm sorry to see it go.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                              Vit Novak Community Member

                              Well, you can use local de-moire here (just don't make selection too big, otherwise it can be quite slow). Works quite good

                              • 12. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                Thanks, Vit.  Yes, the Moire Reduction does work quite well on this kind of fringing.  But I really want to have Camera Raw 7 work as well as or better than its predecessor on default settings and on all edges. 

                                 

                                The new Defringe process is *almost* as good.  And turning it up higher isn't really an option, as you have shown with your post on CA correction.

                                 

                                Since posting the above I have tweaked the defaults I have set, and the difference between 6.7 (with Defringe All Edges) and 7.1 with my defaults is now very small, and with some improvements in other characteristics, so I think I'm pretty happy.

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                  Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                  Are these all with chroma NR set to 0?

                                  • 14. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                    Yes.  I do use that feature sometimes, but as a default it has some downsides.  My philosophy about noise reduction is to use it sparingly to not at all, and only to reduce visible noise below the distraction threshold.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                      Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                      So is NR the same in all three files? I can see the same "remnant Bayer pattern colors" in both Lr 3.6 and 4.1.

                                       

                                      Can you double check that you have the same chroma NR amount in all three versions?

                                      • 16. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                                        Hi Dorin,

                                         

                                        There is some debayering color pattern in each conversion, but the Defringe:  All Edges function makes it less in the CS4 and CS5 conversions.  That's not a default setting.  Without that setting, there's slightly more such color inaccuracy around edges in CS6 conversions.

                                         

                                        Yes, I double checked my settings:

                                         

                                        CS4Conversion.jpg

                                         

                                        CS5Conversion.jpg

                                         

                                        CS6Conversion.jpg

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                        • 17. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          I have decided to drop back to 7.0.

                                           

                                          The Defringe function in Camera Raw 7.1 RC creates some truly awful columnar color artifacts, such as those seen here in this 200% Nearest Neighbor enlargement of a Camera Raw processed image.

                                           

                                          You Adobe folks need to rethink this change. It's absolutely NO better than its predecessor in any way.

                                           

                                          ColumnarColorArtifacts.jpg

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                            Andrew_Hart Community Member

                                            Noel,

                                             

                                            How do you propose to "drop back"?

                                             

                                            Do you propose simply to substitute the 7.0 "Camera Raw.8bi" for the 7.1, or do you intend to reinstall PsCS6?

                                             

                                            The reason I ask is that I recollect reading recently somewhere in this forum, I think it may have been Eric Chan but can't be sure, that with CS6 it is no longer possible to roll back from one version of ACR to another simply with a plugin substitution because there are now other relevant files involved.

                                            • 19. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                              Vit Novak Community Member

                                              I just replaced the camera raw.8bi with 7.0 version and it works

                                               

                                              7.1RC was way too slow on my system

                                              • 20. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                                Andrew_Hart Community Member

                                                Glad to hear that the plugin substitution does in fact work - its always good to have that capability as a safety valve.

                                                 

                                                I don't know for sure where I read that it wouldn't work but I'm damn sure that I read something to that effect somewhere and from someone who I regarded as a reliable source. Ah well, seems the old memory is not what it used to be.

                                                • 21. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                  I had to dig the geeky hex code-named resources out of the Photoshop release distribution and rename them Camera Raw.8bi for both 32 and 64 bit plug-ins, but all indications are that it does work without a downside.  I've reset my Camera Raw default preferences back to use the Defringe:  All Edges feature and that's very satisfying. 

                                                   

                                                  I won't be updating to any of the newer versions if Adobe doesn't deal with the problems they're introducing, and even if they do I may not update if they don't provide access to the older defringing feature as an option. 

                                                   

                                                  It's just silly to release a new version that drops essential features and doesn't have the ability to create as good a conversion as what's already released.  But we can rest assured they're going to release 7.1 just as we've seen it, because that's just the way they do business.

                                                   

                                                  Adobe, you need to change your processes so that feedback from beta testing can actually be applied to your software before that software is released.

                                                   

                                                  FYI, I didn't see a speed difference as Vit did.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                    All the problems still appear to exist in 7.1.

                                                     

                                                    The features removed without acceptable substitutes are still missing, with no option to select them.

                                                     

                                                    Adobe:  You need to heed the feedback from folks kind enough to test your beta software and actually fix what you’ve done wrong before actually releasing it.

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 23. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                      The changes to CA and Defringe were intentional and will remain as-is.  We actually gathered a lot of feedback during the dev cycle, almost all of which was overwhemingly in favor of the current design.

                                                      • 24. Re: Defringe All Edges Gone Missing in 7.1
                                                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                        Clearly the folks giving feedback didn't look closely enough.

                                                         

                                                        -Noel