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    Where is ProRes Export Setting?

    johnnyfriday Community Member

      I own FCP 7 and do not see where i can set up a Prores sequence NOR export out to 10bit uncompressed (animation)....basically my deliverable is Prores....but do not find anywhere Prores settings.

       

      Do I need to import them from some place within my FCP app?

       

      Below are snapshots of my available sequence settings....Screen Shot 2012-05-15 at 12.57.46 PM.png

        • 1. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
          ExactImage Community Member

          Select Quicktime in the export dialog.   Ignore the preset.  Now go to the Video Codec in the Video Tab and choose Animation, Prores, etc.... it's all there.

          • 2. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
            johnnyfriday Community Member

            Here are my setting options within Sequence:Screen Shot 2012-05-15 at 12.57.46 PM.pngScreen Shot 2012-05-15 at 12.58.28 PM.png

            • 3. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
              johnnyfriday Community Member

              NOW....at Export Settings.....i have no option for Prores or uncompressed 10bit nothing....even with QT selected---see frame grabs:

               

              Screen Shot 2012-05-15 at 1.21.14 PM.pngScreen Shot 2012-05-15 at 1.21.27 PM.png

              • 4. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                johnnyfriday Community Member

                OOPS---my bad...was TOTALLY unaware that i had to choose video codec down below....thought it woud be simple up top...see attached for my screw up....sorry!Screen Shot 2012-05-15 at 1.26.20 PM.png

                • 5. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                  ExactImage Community Member

                  OK - so looks like you figured out the codecs while I was doing a screen capture

                   

                  For the main sequence, either drag a clip to the new sequence icon and have it create a sequence for you, or simply create a sequence that matches your frame rate, progressive / interlaced and size (e.g. 1920x1080).  After that it doesn't seem to matter much.  It all plays well.  Once you've got the settings right you can save your own preset and use that from there on if you want.

                  • 6. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                    ExactImage Community Member

                    Also, once you've chosen your export codec (see your screen grab) you can also set an export preset so that you don't have to do this over and over, it will just become one of the Quicktime options without having to select a coded lower down.

                    • 7. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                      johnnyfriday Community Member

                      Thanks Exact: Obviosly i am a moron in this area....

                       

                      Maybe you can tell me what is best method since i have hundreds of options...in past in FCP...i would have just set up a proper sequence as i recall....but in premier so many options:

                       

                      First:

                      i exported my original project to TIFF from a mixed codec timeline and 29.97 and few 24p images

                       

                      Second....

                      i now have a timeline setup as 29.97 and i think under DSLR 1920x1080p....

                       

                      Questions:

                      1. Can i eport direct out of that sequence setup as 29.97 and 1920x1080p to say prores 1920x1080 50?

                      OR should i make an entire new sequence at say 1920x1080p @ 25 and then export out to prores 4444 and 50?

                       

                      Basically i don't seem to have too many options for setting up the sequence from the beginning and looks like all the encoding to other codecs and PAL take place later....so just looking for what should be best practice to always go out to PAL from my NTSC  or to other codecs---if i should make a new sequence or just export from current?

                      thanks for your wonderful help.

                      JF

                      • 8. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                        ExactImage Community Member

                        < scratching head here >

                         

                        Why don't you just set up your sequence as a DSLR 1920x1080 25p if that's what you are looking for and import your TIFF images as required?

                         

                        I don't think 1920x1080/50p is an official specification is it?    Maybe you mean 1920x1080 / 50i ?

                        • 9. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                          johnnyfriday Community Member

                          the specs i was sent were:  1920x1080 50i....i was merely using DSLR setting just as a quick grab...i can use anything of course.

                          • 10. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                            johnnyfriday Community Member

                            I'm assuming there may be no advantage or downside to taking my current sequence where i imported Tiffs and dropped on my 1920x1080p @ 29.97 timeline....and then exporting from there to a QT setting and use some codec to get 1920x1080 50i? but of course brings up my oringal head scratcher---should i just set up another timeline sequence at 1920x1080 25 and drop my Tiff sequence there and THEN output to a prores 50i ?

                            • 11. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                              reToolednet Community Member

                              I think you should take your tiff sequence out of the 29.97 timeline.  Then bring it into your 50i timeline.  Overall, you may want to watch these movies, which may help you

                               

                              http://www.retooled.net/?p=116

                               

                              http://www.retooled.net/?p=123

                              • 12. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                ExactImage Community Member

                                johnnyfriday wrote:

                                 

                                I'm assuming there may be no advantage or downside to taking my current sequence where i imported Tiffs and dropped on my 1920x1080p @ 29.97 timeline....

                                There is a MAJOR dissadvantage to doing this, and that is that Premiere will not retime the frames, it will have to interpolate the frames and you will almost certainly lose quality (possibly significantly).

                                 

                                If your destination is intended to be 25p or 50i then I would create the sequence as 25p / 50i BEFORE you import the TIFF files so that on export each and every frame is taken from the source files instead of being interpolated when it gets retimed.

                                • 13. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                  reToolednet Community Member

                                  What was the source of the tiff sequences, was it footage?  A timelapse?  Graphics?

                                  • 14. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                    johnnyfriday Community Member

                                    ReToolednet: THAT I BRILLIANT!!!  you answred some 3-4 other questions about all this sequence settings and codec settinngs that were tumbling around in my head....I'm coming from FCP and all of this was overwhelming...but those VIDS are AWSOME!!! I'm sold....your site is now saved as Fav. for me...

                                    thanks,

                                    JOhnny

                                    • 15. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                      reToolednet Community Member

                                      Glad I could help.  It was complicated for me coming from FCP7 as well, so when I had it figured it out, I thought I would pass along the knowledge.

                                      • 16. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                        johnnyfriday Community Member

                                        reToolednet wrote:

                                         

                                        What was the source of the tiff sequences, was it footage?  A timelapse?  Graphics?

                                        My source footage is mixed:

                                        R3d

                                        AVCHD

                                        .mov

                                         

                                        95% shot @ 29.97...; some 4k 16:9; 1080p and 720p with a few at 1080p 24p...all dropped on to a PrPro sequence timeline 1920x1080p @ 29.97 and i-frame. See below:Screen Shot 2012-05-13 at 3.26.59 PM.png

                                        • 17. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                          johnnyfriday Community Member

                                          i might add that i also have checked Maxium Bit Depth & Maxuim Quality under Video Previews...

                                          ...i was hoping you would talk about this....i checked this assuming when doing my color work it would give me more bit depth...??? but i do not know...But now after your video...i had always been working in I-Frame but with Max checked....but seems according to your video...that i may not have been seeing the best image becuase i chose I-frame....I suspect i should use say 10bit uncompressed or animation....but when viewing RAW....what WOULD you recommend?

                                           

                                          thanks. all

                                          • 18. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                            reToolednet Community Member

                                            Ok, with that said, I'm not sure why you went to a Tiff sequence.  But since you did, I would say, edit at 29.97, then do your conversion AFTER the fact.  That way, if you ever get an NTSC deliverable, you are set.  Also, you will get a consistent pull down when you convert to pal.  Of course, there are a million ways to do this, but for me, keeping your edit at what the majority of your source is, is the best bet.

                                            • 19. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                              reToolednet Community Member

                                              Others correct me if I'm wrong, but the max bit depth is appropriate when doing color correction, it converts your sequence footage to be treated in floating point 32 bit space.  Max render quality mainly comes into play when doing a lot of different scaling.  So if you have 4K, 1080, and 720, that may be appropriate for you.  However, it may only be necessary for your exports, not your renders. 

                                               

                                              You will NOT be seeing the best image from your renders with iframe as your render setting.

                                               

                                              However, for your exports, that only matters if you check the Use Previews checkbox when exporting.  Otherwise, everything will be recompressed anyway.

                                              • 20. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                Went with a Tiff Sequence for what i assumed was best way to keep lossless....and especially when i have to transcode to Prores eventually...i found (2 years ago) that workign with R3d and converting direct to Prores created some strange gamma shifts....where color work came out muddy and not what we saw on the screen---this was for a big budget Nat Geo show and color work was a big deal as we could NEVER get renders out direct to prores to look the same--just no pop to them...In the end we went DPX....then converted to Prores....I was told TIFF would do just as good...Now, keep in mind i'm an underwater Cameraman...i can do some random editing and coloring---but this is not my area of expertise-and far from it....but todays budgets and what we need to know....One HAS to know this stuff....hence my doc i'm working on now...

                                                BUT, if you have a better suggestion, believe me, i can easily encode out to something different. I'm really looking for a good workflow....one for R3d etc....that just works...to get to prores.

                                                • 21. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                  reToolednet Community Member

                                                  I would suggest trying again with R3D, 2 years ago is a long time in the video world.  Whatever was the issue then, may work perfectly well now.  Of course your system will have to be beefy enough to handle it, but if you can handle tiff and dpx, there is a good chance r3d will work.

                                                   

                                                  If you want to keep everything consistent, you could transcode to prores in prelude at the start of the project. (I assume u are in cs6 right).

                                                   

                                                  One thing to be careful of is making sure you have a preset for all of your frame rates of your source.  Prelude suffers from AME's inability to just pass through frame rate into final encodes.  So it's pretty easy to mess that up if you don't know what your doing.

                                                  OR if you are worried about that, just drag your source clips into AE.  Make a new comp for each by dragging all of your items on the new comp button, (can do as many at once as you like) and then all of their source settings will pass through.  Just make sure timecode is set to come through.  Of course, then you lose things like reel names (with AE, not prelude). 

                                                   

                                                  So if you are doing more of an online offline multifacility workflow, I would try just working natively first.

                                                  • 22. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                    johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                    reToolednet wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Others correct me if I'm wrong, but the max bit depth is appropriate when doing color correction, it converts your sequence footage to be treated in floating point 32 bit space.  Max render quality mainly comes into play when doing a lot of different scaling.  So if you have 4K, 1080, and 720, that may be appropriate for you.  However, it may only be necessary for your exports, not your renders. 

                                                     

                                                    You will NOT be seeing the best image from your renders with iframe as your render setting.

                                                     

                                                    However, for your exports, that only matters if you check the Use Previews checkbox when exporting.  Otherwise, everything will be recompressed anyway.

                                                    Excellent news to know...especially with using previews when using a solid codec to view them on...i guess you should ALWAYS make sure you have selected for sequence codec your export codec when plannig to use previews....that is another little one to ask..so if i have say 10bit uncompressed and go out prores 422...and use previews...that still ok (even if not matched)---but still a good solid codec? or should it always match. thanks again....and give me an inch...and i'll go for the mile.

                                                    • 23. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                      johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                      Yes...the prores gamma shifting still occurs...i think it's just an apple thing...that one has been a killer and just won't go away....so therefore i'm off of doing a direct prores transcode for that reason...but looking for a lossless codec, then out to prores.

                                                       

                                                      Yes...on CS 6

                                                       

                                                      I'm not very familiar with AE...but that will have to change based on what i keep seeing and hearing....

                                                       

                                                      I really like the native workflow though....but then i just need to choose a proper sequence setting such as uncompressed 10bit or something....since most of my docs use a few different cameras/codecs.

                                                       

                                                      Thanks agian reToolednet....a wealth of knowlege sir.

                                                      • 24. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                        ExactImage Community Member

                                                        Thanks for those videos.  I *thought* I'd learned something that was going to save me lots of time - and in reality on a Mac they probably would.   Unfortuantely we've got a few PCs in here now too, and the options for preview rendering codec are somewhat limited.    Any on know how to shoehorn DNxHD in to the options?

                                                        • 25. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                          reToolednet Community Member

                                                          10 bit uncompressed would be totally suitable

                                                          • 26. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                            reToolednet Community Member

                                                            Not sure what you mean about the gamma shift though.  I tested some Red One footage, I don't have a ton at home, just a random clip.  Brought into a prores sequence in PP CS6, exported with match sequence settings.  Brought back in, looks exactly the same.

                                                             

                                                            As for PC options, I'm not really sure.  I do think Premiere needs a good codec option, especially on the PC.  Perhaps the AVI setting of V210, or whatever they call the Uncompress 10 bit AVI could be a good choice.  Any PC users want to comment?

                                                            • 27. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                              johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                              reToolednet:  yes, for sure 100% there is a shift in colors when you transcode out from R3d to prores...in fact i just finished up a 3d Imax and was in on the post and this was pointed out by me when they had some quick looks out of RedcineX for dailies....i had pointed this out to them that we had a similar problem in our last show for nat geo...it is an extremely suttle shift to muddy looking colors when transcoded direct to prores....a look most folks won't be able to see...but you as a corist likely would...but yes 100%

                                                               

                                                              ...this has been a big plague for many of us transcoding direct to Prores from R3d....and best workaround has been to go to DPX or other 3rd party before going to Prores....

                                                               

                                                              Believe me i WISH this was not the case, but i've spent since mid 2007 on this issue and in the end it's just an apple/prores thing....I can get GREAT results if i wrap the R3d in a QT wrapper and work it in COLOR (within Apples hardware/software loop) and get GREAT results...but when i go outside of apple that's when the shifting occurs...again very very suttle...but when you put 20mins into an underwater clip and get a 5% diff. look, you notice it...

                                                               

                                                              glad to share more with you on this offline if you do want to know more...but it's a process that has stumped myself and one other underwater film maker for a long time.....in fact so much so that he's gone BACK to color and QT wrappers.

                                                              • 28. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                reToolednet Community Member

                                                                johnny, I think you need to elaborate on your process that causes the gamma shift 100% of the time. 

                                                                 

                                                                I'm not a colorist, but am very sensitive to gamma shifts.  The kind that plagued FCP and compressor for, pretty much always, including FCPX.  That said, just doing a native RED clip in PP, then exporting to prores.  I can bring the same prores clip back into the timeline, over the RED clip, enable and disable it and see 0 difference.

                                                                 

                                                                Perhaps a hint on scopes, but none visible to my eye.  Of course, it could depend on the red camera the clip is from.  So more steps are needed on camera and what u are doing when seeing the shift.

                                                                • 29. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                  johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                  Here's are examples....one is a screen-grab from my Tiff sequence...other is from Prores transcode to 444...underwater really allows you to see the shifts in blue....but what you can see is the muddying up or desaturation when going to prores. This is done from Premier and gives me just what i have seen when transcoding direct from RedcineX to Prores---basically taking an R3d and transcoding to prores....ALL of this is done with scopes and broadast monitors....i have a pretty extensive setup for viewing on 4 monitors as well as scopes. I can tell you unequvicably that there is a drastic shift here....and nobody i know has found a solution other than transcoding to another codec, then back out to prores. What i see most do is go to DPX and then prores.

                                                                   

                                                                  PRORES 444

                                                                  Prores444.png

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  TIFF

                                                                  Tiff.png

                                                                  • 30. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                    johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                    I can reproduce this effect a million times....go into RCX with any R3d and color it, then output to prores....and you see it every time.....Same for another group of underwater film makers...we have found best solution to get WYSIWYG...is go with QT wrapper on the R3d in COLOR and do color work, then output prores....that will then look identical.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                      reToolednet Community Member

                                                                      But I'm not talking about using redcinex.  I'm talking about editing

                                                                      natively with the r3ds in premiere pro.  Then exporting to pro res.  PP

                                                                      handles native red edits surprisingly well.  For more info watch my

                                                                      video on the "default scale to sequence" setting in Premiere Pro.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                        johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                        the example above is from PrPr....what i am suggesting or reporting is that this is not a software related issue...it is a well known (within R3d community if you will)...issue...that is somehow related to a gamma shift when goint to prores form R3d no matter the software one is using...

                                                                         

                                                                        However, if you have a method where you get exact duplication (after coloring) I'd love to see....but i can tell you i've been around this issue for a while....but don't take a native (raw/uncolored R3d to test)....grade an R3d to your liking then do the test...this is where you will see the shift. I can bring in many more expamples....In fact this moment i'm testing form different sequence settings to see results...but at moment all are same out of PrPro....with gamma shifting. that said, if you have settings that are allowing you a pleasing look that gains you zero difference i will praise you for the rest of this year....

                                                                        • 33. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                          reToolednet Community Member

                                                                          Yeah, I did a few tests for you.  No issues on my end.

                                                                           

                                                                          First test.  Bring .r3d file directly into PP (not the quicktime proxys, but the actual .r3d), put into 1920x1080 23.976 timeline with ProRes422 as render file setting and make sure Scale to Frame size is checked on the clip.

                                                                          Add a three way color corrector.  Export, by hitting match sequence setting in the export sequence dialogue.

                                                                          Reimport. Lay prores clip over red clip.  Enable and disable.  They look exactly the same.

                                                                           

                                                                          Second Test.  Bring .r3d file directly into PP (not the quicktime proxys, but the actual .r3d), put into 1920x1080 23.976 timeline with ProRes422 as render file setting and make sure Scale to Frame size is checked on the clip.

                                                                          Right click on the clip in the project panel and click on source settings.  Change things like temperature, shadow, etc. in the RED RAW settings.  Export, by hitting match sequence setting in the export sequence dialogue.

                                                                          Reimport. Lay prores clip over red clip.  Enable and disable.  They look exactly the same.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                            johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                            So when you transcode out to prores and open the prores file side by side....not within Premier...but just as if you were (in my case).....making Prores files for my stock agency and sending to them....Then how do they look on their own--not in PrPro?....doing a side by side comparison...Or in case of laying back to tape....HDCAM....you are no longer in PrPro....I believe this is the root of the issue...and for some reason i can work in Color wiht R3d files under QT wrapper and get IDENTICAL looks when i transcode out to a prores file and take a snapshot side by side--not back in color or fcp, but color file compared to Prorest/Qt (standalone) file.

                                                                             

                                                                            EDIT: i can bring back in the prores or animation or uncompressed files into PrPro and they look itentical...but that is where things eventually MUST stray....i send out a prores or HDCAM tape now to XYZ...they set it up for broadast--not bring it back in PrPro...that is where the look is different and where i'd love to find a solution...but at moment only one i know is back in color with wrappers....which is a pain, but it works.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                              reToolednet Community Member

                                                                              So to clarify, you trancode out to prores.  Lets say from redcinex,

                                                                              correct?  Then open that prores file side by side with what?

                                                                               

                                                                              I have yet to lay off a red native job directly to tape from PP, as FCP7

                                                                              is still the main system at my company.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                                johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                                I basically take a screen grab from the software/edit system i was working within....where i did color work and then comare to the output prores (stand alone) clip....i don't bring it back into the same color software. This goes for redcine or PrPro....i've done both....in fact due to this conversation and the timeline & sequence settings that you revealed to me...ive tested many...from sequence settings originating from prores and then outputting prores as well as uncompressed and animation sequences and then outputting prores--but when i look at the output file...the difference is more than suttle as in the examples i showed earlier.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                                  reToolednet Community Member

                                                                                  Also, may I suggest trying my steps and letting me know how that works.  Just out of curiosity to see if that works for you at all.  If not, I'm at a loss.... but maybe others here can help.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                                    johnnyfriday Community Member

                                                                                    I've actually done all of this...in fact a 52min doc with about 50% R3d's....are you referring to these steps:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    First test.  Bring .r3d file directly into PP (not the quicktime proxys, but the actual .r3d), put into 1920x1080 23.976 timeline with ProRes422 as render file setting and make sure Scale to Frame size is checked on the clip.  ETC>.......?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    If so, yes, in fact that's mainly all i work with for stock now is R3d images that i shoot since 2007. There's not really anything i don't get about working the R3d's....within RCX or PrPro...Everything is scaled and source settings i work in as well. I also utilize a quadro 4000 and redrocket card for acceleration....

                                                                                     

                                                                                    ...so basically i've done this already...with the color work i've done on this project...all looks great within PrPro....but output is where it strays....

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Where is ProRes Export Setting?
                                                                                      reToolednet Community Member

                                                                                      Oh well, sorry I couldn't be of more help.  I used to get gamma shifts

                                                                                      on my system just for having the AJA uncompressed codec installed, so

                                                                                      there are tons of variables that can effect every system.  Its hard to

                                                                                      trouble shoot on two different systems.

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