28 Replies Latest reply: May 21, 2012 2:00 PM by James_233 RSS

    Trap query

    James_233 Community Member

      I have a document to be printed with a black background with red text which is small, usually 10 pt, I need to trap this so there is no white around the red text, which is Pantone 200.

       

      The printer has asked me to do this.

       

      I have never modified Trapping before so I need help.

       

      1. What do I change in the Modify Trap Preset Options? The default options are:

      Trap width:

      Default: 0.088 mm

      Black: 0.176 mm

       

      Trap Appearance:

      Join & End style : mitre

       

      Trap Placement: Centre

      All but "Trap Images internally" are selected

       

      Trap Thresholds:

      Step: 10%

      Black Colour: 100%

      Black Density: 1.6

      Sliding Trap: 70%

      Trap Colour Reduction: 100%

       

      2. Do I make a new preset or just change the default?

       

      3. The current ink manager settings:

      Process Black: Normal Type; 1.7 Density; Sequence 4

      Pantone 200C: Normal Type; 0.9585 Density; Sequence 5.

       

      4. Black colour is rich black: 40, 0, 0, 100

       

       

      I am using INDD 5.5, Mac

       

      Thanks for any help before Monday!

        • 1. Re: Trap query
          Daniel Flavin Community Member

          InDesign's trapping has served me well without ever modifying the defaults.

          Are you making plates or supplying a pdf which they will plate from?

           

          btw, every other response will say find a new printer.

          • 2. Re: Trap query
            James_233 Community Member

            I am supplying a pdf.

             

            If I set the output to Adobe rip defaults, would that solve the problem? The printer received the artwork as a pdf and apparently the print room had a problem, maybe because of the black background. 

             

            Where can I check in the client pdf whether the trap is set for the RIP defaults or not?

             

            The client has since sent the INDD package to me and I am working from that, and once I know the right thing to do I can generate a print-ready pdf.

             

            Sorry, I am really in the dark about this matter. I looked up the InDesign Secrets site and David Blatner said something like trapping is not really meant for humans, just for printers! But I am doing work for a printer...

            • 3. Re: Trap query
              Dov Isaacs Employee Hosts

              OK, on behalf of Adobe ...

               

              First of all, in terms of your design, be very careful about small type on dark backgrounds. 10pt could be borderline unless bold and sans serif. You might want to first try printing your content out to a laser printer and see whether the red type on black background is really readable. If not, consider changes to your content.

               

              Secondly and most importantly, best practice is for trapping to be done by the RIP, not manually in any process prior to the RIP process. You should not be setting any trapping settings at all! There are very few cases where manually mucking with trapping should be at all required. The fact that your print service provider is asking you to do his work should be a very big M=100%,Y=100% (=Red) flag in terms of the capabilities and professionalism of your printer.

               

                        - Dov

              • 4. Re: Trap query
                Daniel Flavin Community Member

                The printer would is a dolt.

                File > Print

                I't would be best to have their Printer PPD available, but lacking that you can create seps to Acrobat with Trapping.

                Set up similair to this example, note I selected Postscript File, you might just go staright to PDF Printer.

                 

                Deselect any unused colors, toggle on the Spot colors needed (and black?)

                 

                If you choose to save a postscript file, navigate to the folder where you saved it; double click that to launch Distiller which will create the pdf.

                Open the pdf, Choose File > Properties

                - On the Advanced Tab, Tapped should show Yes

                 

                Zoom way in (4000%) on the final trapped pdf, at the trap areas (coners) - you'll see the trap

                 

                ID Seps to ps.JPG

                • 5. Re: Trap query
                  James_233 Community Member

                  Dov, thanks for your reply. The red text is bold and sans serif, but imho tiny at 10 pt.

                   

                  My printer is very professional and has been a successful printer for over 25 years so there must be a problem. He is renowned for having a very close eye to detail. That's how he keeps clients, some of them blue chip companies.

                   

                  I'll print it onto a laser printer to see what the result is. My printer may have to go back to his client and suggest a larger typeface or some other design alternative.

                   

                  I'll redo the pdf too, taking care that the RIP trapping option is chosen. You never know, that might have been the problem in the first place.

                  • 6. Re: Trap query
                    rob day CommunityMVP

                    You can also make a trapped composite CMYK pdf via postscript and Distiller by choosing InRip Separations. ID's trapping has no effect when you Export a PDF. With a composite PDF you can easily view the traps. But if there is a trapping problem on press who will pay?

                     

                    Screen shot 2012-05-18 at 6.53.25 PM.png

                     

                    In Acrobat you can see the trap. You could increase the spread via the Black Trap Width in Indesign. If the job is CMYK + Pantone 200, using a rich black would be better

                    Screen shot 2012-05-18 at 6.52.19 PM.png

                    • 7. Re: Trap query
                      James_233 Community Member

                      My printer has given me more information. Apparently paper stretches a bit when going over the rollers, just a minuscule amount but enough to put a bit of white around coloured text on a dark background. He has known this from past experience. (I have just thought this might be from pdfs from Quark rather than InDesign). He'll be testing my new pdf on Monday.

                       

                      I have tried all the suggestions above and have created the pdf using Distiller where I set the trapping to "yes". I enlarged the pdf to 6400% and could find no white. However, the problem does exist at the printing stage, so can anyone suggest how I can increase the trap width and by how much?

                       

                      Thanks for any further help, and thanks for the suggestions so far.

                      • 8. Re: Trap query
                        P Spier CommunityMVP

                        Seriously, this is something that should be done by the prepress tech when the file is RIPed.

                        • 9. Re: Trap query
                          BobLevine CommunityMVP

                          While Peter is correct that this should be done in prepress, I would go so far as to say that if this design is presenting this kind of headache the entire idea should be revisited.

                           

                          Bob

                          • 10. Re: Trap query
                            James_233 Community Member

                            Thank you Peter & Bob. I'll pass the message on and I'll let the forum know how the test goes on Monday.

                             

                            My printer has only started using pdfs in the last couple of years. He always insisted on having the original package (Quark or InDesign) because he found that pdfs caused "slippage" which were difficult to fix. I haven't asked him yet if the problems were just in Quark-created pdfs or all of them.

                             

                            When I ran a few tests on the pdf I created the report stated there were over 3000 colour errors. The document is only 10 A4 pages. Is this normal? I did not create this document, one of my printer's clients did.

                            • 11. Re: Trap query
                              P Spier CommunityMVP

                              Without seeing the error report, the file and the preflight profile, it's pretty hard to tell what they are, but it could be as simple as registration marks. ID always outputs CMYand K plates even if they are not all being used. It could also be something serious like a CMYK to CMYK conversion at export that is changing your color mixes, particularly making your 100%K objects into some 4-color mix.

                              • 12. Re: Trap query
                                rob day CommunityMVP

                                I enlarged the pdf to 6400% and could find no white. However, the problem does exist at the printing stage, so can anyone suggest how I can increase the trap width and by how much?

                                 

                                 

                                You wouldn't necessarily see white in any case because the color's aren't off register when viewed on screen. To see if the red is trapping you would turn of the black separation in Output Preview like this where the top is trapped and the bottom isn't:

                                 

                                Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 9.09.00 AM.png

                                 

                                To increase the trap width you have to change the default Trap Black Width in the InDesign Trap Presets panel, then choose Application Built-In for Trapping when you save your postscript file.

                                 

                                Do you have to provide a PDF? Why not give the printer an ID package then they can decide what trap settings to use?

                                • 13. Re: Trap query
                                  rob day CommunityMVP

                                  When I ran a few tests on the pdf I created the report stated there were over 3000 colour errors.

                                   

                                   

                                  I just noticed in your first post that you are using cyan so the job is CMYK + 200? If not maybe that's the source of your color errors. A correctly trapped 4-color rich black would let you use any readable point size—the cmy + 200 would look like this:

                                   

                                  Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 9.37.51 AM.png

                                  • 14. Re: Trap query
                                    James_233 Community Member

                                    Thanks Rob: I tested this in the way you suggested and the text seemed OK. Anyway I'll wait until the test is done on Monday on the press before I do anything else, as I may not need to.

                                     

                                    At least I know what to say if there is a next time.

                                    • 15. Re: Trap query
                                      James_233 Community Member

                                      rob @07:48: my red text doesn't look like that, it looks much sharper. Does this mean it is not trapped?

                                      • 16. Re: Trap query
                                        rob day CommunityMVP

                                        What are you capturing? Is this CMY+200 (black turned off). Show us the black plate only, and then the red plate only

                                        • 17. Re: Trap query
                                          James_233 Community Member

                                          Output-Preview2.pngOutput-Preview black only.png

                                          • 18. Re: Trap query
                                            rob day CommunityMVP

                                            There's no trap and your 100|82|56|80 rich black probably isn't a good idea. Less density and more neutral is typical something like 65|50|50|100

                                            • 19. Re: Trap query
                                              rob day CommunityMVP

                                              And the black is 80%. Looks like you are getting a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion. So your printer won't take an InDesign file?

                                              • 20. Re: Trap query
                                                James_233 Community Member

                                                How do I change the rich black numbers? Currently it is set on the document swatch as 40/0/0/100, not 100/82/56/100.

                                                 

                                                I did not set the InDesign file as CMYK-CMYK conversion, but to RIP

                                                 

                                                This is not my document, but someone else's. I do have the original artwork though.

                                                 

                                                And since I have tried everything I know to trap the stuff, and haven't succeeded apparently, can you give me a step-by-step instruction on how you did your trapping, starting from InDesign? I am using InDesign CS5.5 Mac. I had trouble finding a PPD for print to PostScript and used a really old one for Distiller which I downloaded from Adobe.com.

                                                 

                                                Many thanks

                                                • 21. Re: Trap query
                                                  rob day CommunityMVP

                                                  In this case you really don't want to provide a PDF you're taking on too much prepress responsibility—you should send the printer the ID file.

                                                   

                                                  Assuming a trapped PDF is the only option, set the rich black swatch in ID to 65|50|50|100 and in the Print dialog set the Output and Color Management panels to:

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Color should be In-Rip Separations and Trapping Application Built-In

                                                  Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.57.41 AM.png

                                                  The Printer Profile needs to be Document CMYK

                                                   

                                                  Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.58.15 AM.png

                                                   

                                                  In distiller set the default to PDF/X-1a

                                                   

                                                  Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.58.45 AM.png

                                                  • 22. Re: Trap query
                                                    rob day CommunityMVP

                                                    Is this job really 5 colors?

                                                    • 23. Re: Trap query
                                                      Daniel Flavin Community Member

                                                      This is not your problem or responsibility. You and we are chasing a wild animal here. Is this effectively a 2 color job question, actually 2 colors on press, or is the spot 200 running as a fifth color or cmyk equivilant? 

                                                       

                                                      My printer has only started using pdfs in the last couple of years. He always insisted on having the original package (Quark or InDesign) because he found that pdfs caused "slippage" which were difficult to fix. I haven't asked him yet if the problems were just in Quark-created pdfs or all of them.

                                                       

                                                      Neither the file format nor creative application has anything to do with press registration. The native file requirement statment lends me to believe that their prepress was adding overprinting strokes, but I would have a hard time believing that they could do this in any manageable way. (The paragraph flow would kill them unless they created curves...)

                                                       

                                                      The statement about the quality and attention to detail is contrary to the original post - A knowledgeable/capable dept/facility would never prefer client trapped files...

                                                       

                                                      In a nutshell - 

                                                      They may or may not have in-RIP trap ability. This sounds like they do not; if they do, their press is so far out of registration they think you can submit files to compensate for that.

                                                       

                                                      You can supply trapped files, but you cannot solve their problem. Walk away. While you have learned a few things, you're dedicating to much valuable time in an area not necessary to your function.

                                                      • 24. Re: Trap query
                                                        James_233 Community Member

                                                        Yes - CMYK and Pantone 200. There are many photos in the document

                                                        • 25. Re: Trap query
                                                          James_233 Community Member

                                                          Thank you Rob @91May 13:01 this is the most helpful post so far.

                                                           

                                                          I did get a trapped output from Distiller, but without crop marks, but every time I try again with crop marks (changed size to custom then to A3 though printed document is A4), there is no trapped output.

                                                           

                                                          When the postscript file is created by InDesign it says trapping is occurring for each page, but something happens in Distiller which is set to PDF/X-1A:2001

                                                           

                                                          Does anyone know what needs to be done here?

                                                          • 26. Re: Trap query
                                                            rob day CommunityMVP

                                                            Adding crop marks would have no effect on trapping.

                                                             

                                                            Building press ready PDFs takes some experience and including traps would be very unusual, there could be other problems with your PDF which you won't spot.

                                                             

                                                            Also, unless there are large areas of red ink coverage, there isn't much reason to run the 5th color—Pantone 200 is well inside the CMYK gamut.

                                                            • 27. Re: Trap query
                                                              Grant H Community Member

                                                              woah: Listen to what Rob, Bob, Daniel, Peter and Dov are saying....

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              Why are you trap [ing]....

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              This is NOT your responsibility to have to do, for the printer to ask YOU to do this is ridiculous. What next, will he ask you to set the screen angles?

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              I dont buy his reasoning/thought process here... sounds like he wants to create possies by printing separations directly from your PDF!!! Geeze mate, use someone else!!!!!!! Absolutely diabolical.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              This (among other things) is BEST done by the RIP (which he obv doesn't have, instead prob uses a postscript printer to make his possies)

                                                               

                                                              oh dear....

                                                               

                                                              (well thats my rant of the day...)

                                                               

                                                              G

                                                              • 28. Re: Trap query
                                                                James_233 Community Member

                                                                Thanks for everyone's replies, and especially Rob Day.

                                                                 

                                                                Got the trapping working and now I know how to trap in InDesign!

                                                                 

                                                                And my printer was very grateful. He is an excellent printer. All of you who raved about his expertise, you don't know him -I do. Please don't rant about people whose experience and practices you don't know anything about.