30 Replies Latest reply: May 19, 2012 2:55 PM by Manko10 RSS

    Problem with color management, exported images too saturated

    Manko10 Community Member

      Hi,

       

      I have an image in Photoshop (CS5, Windows 7) which I wanted to export to PDF in order to print it but then I noticed that the colors varied significantly making the result unusable.

      The image is composed in AdobeRGB and I'm working on a wide gamut monitor (Dell U2711) which I calibrated and profiled with a Spyder4.

       

      In Photoshop the image contains a nice dull light brown but when I open the PSD in Illustator or InDesign or when I export it to PDF and view it in Acrobat there is way too much red in it. Below I have attached an example of how colors look like in Photoshop (left) and the rest of the system (right):

      wrong-colors.jpg

      (note: this is an AdobeRGB JPEG, so viewing it on a normal gamut monitor might not show as much difference as there actually is)

       

      This color mismatch is very extreme and I don't know what's causing the problems. I tried different profiles for my monitor (the one I created with the Spyder, the factory profile from Dell, the standard AdobeRGB profile, no profile at all etc.). While the color obviously changed a little the overall problem still persists: Photoshop shows the nice yellowish brown, all the other applications show a very reddish image. The difference is even noticeable quite extremely on my second monitor which is just a normal gamut monitor with a color range of about 73% of sRGB.

      I also tried exporting it to a flat JPEG with no embedded profiles which makes the result a little better but the colors are still not accurate at all. This is very confusing as I don't know what the problem is and I also don't know if it's just Photoshop displaying wrong colors or if all the other applications just do bad color management.

       

      It would be great if you could help me here.

      Thanks.

       

       

      P.S. This issue might be related to this thread http://forums.adobe.com/message/4178572#4178572 although I couldn't find any working solution there.

       

      P.P.S. Opening the exported image/PDF in Photoshop, produces the desired colors again, so it's not a weird conversion causing the issues.

        • 1. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
          emil emil Community Member

          1. Make sure the image has its color profile embedded. The screen shot below shows one way to check this and this menu is available in most color managed Adobe programs.

          http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-3549763-61576/426-183/LowerLeft.jpg

           

          2. Make sure your monitor profile created with the Spyder is installed properly in your system. On Windows you can check this by using the Color Management control panel. In the Devices tab, your monitor profile is listed with its name ending with the word (default). You can also check the monitor profile being used with the color settings of the Adobe color managed programs. In the Working Spaces section of the Color Settings the RGB menu will list the name of the monitor color profile as Monitor RGB followed by the name of the color profile file of the monitor.

           

          when the above two conditions are met your image should display consistently in all  Adobe color managed programs. The only exception is if you have soft proofing on with another color space (profile) - so, when comparing images make sure Proof Colors is off from the View menu. Soft Proofing if used will last only during a session, so when the program starts it is always off.

          • 2. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
            Manko10 Community Member

            Hi emil emil,

             

            Thanks for your answer. Yes, the profile is embedded in the file. The (extreme) color mismatch also appears when I export the document to CMYK (ISO Coated v2), sRGB or any other profile regardless of whether the profile is actually included or not.

            And yes, the profiles are installed correctly. As I wrote, I tried several profiles and I always saw a slight change in color when the new calibration information was loaded to the LUT. I also saw a color shift inside Photoshop when the program recognizes that there is a new profile for this monitor (can be tested quickly by assigning an sRGB profile to the AdobeRGB monitor which will produce colors that are obviously wrong, refreshing the view in PS, and then switching back to the correct profile and refreshing the view again).

            You can also check the monitor profile being used with the color settings of the Adobe color managed programs. In the Working Spaces section of the Color Settings the RGB menu will list the name of the monitor color profile as Monitor RGB followed by the name of the color profile file of the monitor.

            Where do I find that? I don't have an English PS version. Which RGB menu do you mean?

            • 3. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
              Manko10 Community Member

              I was now able to export a JPEG with embedded AdobeRGB profile which looks exactly like the image in Photoshop when viewed with the Windows Photo Viewer. However, as soon as I import it into Illustrator or InDesign it becomes quite reddish again. The color management settings are syncronized, though.

               

              EDIT:

              And the Windows explorer preview of the produced PDF file looks better than the actual PDF inside Acrobat (although not exactly what it should look like).

               

              EDIT2:

              When opening the print dialog in Photoshop the print preview also looks all wrong.

              • 4. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                emil emil Community Member

                Manko10 wrote:

                 

                ...

                You can also check the monitor profile being used with the color settings of the Adobe color managed programs. In the Working Spaces section of the Color Settings the RGB menu will list the name of the monitor color profile as Monitor RGB followed by the name of the color profile file of the monitor.

                Where do I find that? I don't have an English PS version. Which RGB menu do you mean?

                From the Edit menu, choose Color Settings. In the window that opens go to the Working Spaces section and click on its RGB menu. You may need to scroll up to see the Monitor RGB followed by the name of the monitor profile being used.

                 

                To make the troubleshooting easier, please, make and post screen shots of:

                the same menu I showed with the image in my first post, showing the color profile of the image being used in Photoshop and Illustrator

                also screen shots of the Color Settings window of Photoshop and Illustrator.

                • 5. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                  Manko10 Community Member

                  From the Edit menu, choose Color Settings. In the window that opens go to the Working Spaces section and click on its RGB menu. You may need to scroll up to see the Monitor RGB followed by the name of the monitor profile being used.

                  You mean the "Monitor RGB" color profile among all the other profiles? The Monitor RGB profile is just the profile for my main monitor (which I named "HP Generic PnP-2 (No AL)"). It's the Spyder profile I created for the integrated notebook monitor. But that's not actually the one Photoshop is using for the external wide gamut monitor. But I proved it's using the right profile anyway as described in my last posting by temporarily changing it to a wrong profile in the Windows Color Management options.

                   

                  Here are the screen shots:

                   

                  document profile ps.jpg

                   

                  document profile ai.jpg

                   

                  color settings ps.jpg

                   

                  color settings ai.jpg

                   

                  The document profile in Illustrator is "ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)" but with the document mode set to RGB (which then displays "AdobeRGB (1998)" in the status bar) I see no big difference and what Illustrator is showing isn't the same as the "ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)" softproof in Photoshop anyway.

                  • 6. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                    emil emil Community Member
                    ...

                     

                    document profile ps.jpg

                     

                    document profile ai.jpg

                     

                    ...

                    Photoshop and Illustrator are using two entirely different color spaces and even color models. Photoshop is using RGB color model with AdobeRGB color space and Illustrator is using CMYK color model with ISO Coated v2 color space. Make sure both programs display Adobe RGB for the document profile in those menus. This also means that you have to change the color mode of your document in Illustrator to RGB from File > Document color mode before placing your image in Illustrator, If you do it after the image is placed it won't help.

                    • 7. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                      Manko10 Community Member

                      As I wrote: it doesn't matter whether it is RGB or CMYK. Both are way to red. And it also doesn't matter whether I create the document in RGB and then import or whether I import and then change to RGB. The result is exactly the same. When I compare both side by side they look exactly the same whereas a CMYK sofproof in Photoshop looks significantly different (and much more like the original, just slightly dimmer but not reddish at all).

                      • 8. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                        emil emil Community Member

                        Can  you please show a screen shot with the actual image in both programs Illustrator and Photoshop side by side and the bottom left of the image windows showing that both documents are with Adobe RGB color space like this:

                        Capture.JPG

                        • 9. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                          Manko10 Community Member

                          You don't believe it, do you?

                           

                          Unfortunately I can't post the whole image here but the wood texture with applied filters and such should be enough for the sake of demonstration.

                           

                          color mismatch.jpg

                           

                          The left image is the original Photoshop file and the right one an RGB illustrator file with exactly this PSD imported. Both are on the same monitor. So even if the calibration was all wrong they should still be of the same color.

                          • 10. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                            emil emil Community Member

                            Manko10 wrote:

                             

                            You don't believe it, do you?

                            ..

                            I believe you, but you may not be aware of things that the screen shots shows and i can also measure color values if necessary. Before we move on the next step monitor profile troubleshooting, I want to make sure how the file arrived in Photoshop and Illustrator. It will be very helpfull if you describe the exact steps of how the file was opened in Photoshop and Illustrator. Also what is the original color profile if any of the file. This can be checked quickly in Bridge by checking the Metadata Tab > File Properties section.

                            • 11. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                              emil emil Community Member

                              Is this also happening with all images or only with that one?

                              • 12. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                Manko10 Community Member

                                Thanks so far for your ongoing support.

                                 

                                Adobe Bridge shows (not surprisingly) AdobeRGB for the PSD file. When I save the Illustrator file it says it has no tags, but it is also RGB (should be AdobeRGB).

                                The strange thing is that the thumbnail previews for both look the same in Bridge (and they indeed look what they should look like without the red tint). But as soon as I go to Illustrator, InDesign or Acrobat I always have the wrong colors.

                                 

                                Bringing the PSD into Illustrator can be done arbitrarily. I can either create a document (RGB or CMYK) and then use File->Place or I can open it directly via  File->Open. Both methods lead to the same result.

                                 

                                Is this also happening with all images or only with that one?

                                 

                                It also happens with other files. I have one here with a lot of red tones. Opening it in Illustrator makes it garishly magenta.

                                • 13. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                  emil emil Community Member

                                  So, the original file on the hard drive before using it in Photoshop or Illustrator is a .psd file right? Can you describe exactly how the image arrives in Illustrator. Do you open with File > Open or first you create a document and then File > Place or you use Copy/Paste from Photoshop? With any of these do you get any warning messages or other dialog boxes regarding color profile mismatches?

                                  • 14. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                    Manko10 Community Member

                                    As said above: you can go either way: first create a document and place or open directly.

                                     

                                    But in the meantime I came one step further to the solution. I opened the Windows Color Management options and removed all profiles and than unloaded the LUTs (at least the color correction for the monitors is now gone or at least different). Now the colors aren't very beautiful in both applications but they at least match.

                                    But as soon as I reassign profiles (be it with the Windows tool or with the Spyder software) the problem comes back.

                                    • 15. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                      D Fosse Community Member

                                      I don't have any better troubleshooting steps to provide than emil emil, but let me just say that in my experience things like this are always the monitor profile. Well, most of the time at any rate. I'd concentrate on that.

                                       

                                      The thread you referenced in your first post actually did get resolved: his Mac didn't load the correct profile for the second monitor.

                                       

                                      I noticed one thing you wrote above:

                                      (the profile in Color Settings > Monitor RGB is...) the Spyder profile I created for the integrated notebook monitor. But that's not actually the one Photoshop is using for the external wide gamut monitor. But I proved it's using the right profile anyway as described in my last posting by temporarily changing it to a wrong profile in the Windows Color Management options.

                                      That doesn't prove it's using the right profile, just a different one.

                                      • 16. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                        emil emil Community Member

                                        yeah, the problem is your monitor profile. You mentioned that you are using a laptop and the Monitor RGB from the RGB menu in the Color Settings is showing the monitor profile of the laptop screen and not the u2711 profile? If so, try making u2711 the main monitor using the system to make its profile name shows next to the Monitor RGB menu in the Color Settings. Aslo try temporarily to remove the monitor profile of your laptop screen to make sure the programs for some reason are not confusing monitor profiles

                                        • 17. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                          Manko10 Community Member

                                          Well, when I assign a wrong profile to the external monitor and the color changes (only on that monitor) and then reassign the correct profile and the color changes again this should be prove enough. Not only did the whole monitor color change (due to a change in the LUTs) also the image inside Photoshop changed its color independently as soon as I refresh the view by clicking on it.

                                          • 18. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                            D Fosse Community Member

                                            Well, when I assign a wrong profile to the external monitor and the color changes (only on that monitor) and then reassign the correct profile and the color changes again this should be prove enough.

                                             

                                            Again: that doesn't prove it's using the right profile.

                                            • 19. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                              emil emil Community Member

                                              Did you make that last test using Illustrator too? So far from all you said it appears that the monitor profile is OK because Windows Explorer, Photo Viewer, and Bridge are using the same monitor profile like Photoshop, but Illustrator, InDesign, and Acrobat may be are using your laptop screen color profile confusing it for u2711. That's why I'm asking you to remove your laptop color profile to force and make sure all programs are using the same monitor profile.

                                              • 20. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                Manko10 Community Member

                                                If it's not the right profile, there would be at least two independent even more wrong profiles which I switch by assinging the right and wrong profiles. I doubt it. I'm pretty sure Windows and Photoshop are using the right profiles. Both monitors change independently when assinging different profiles and the colors in Photoshop always change accordingly.

                                                The applications which don't seem to choose the correct profile are Illustrator, InDesign and Acrobat. When I make the external monitor the primary one they display the colors correctly. But as soon as I make the notebook monitor the main display the colors are wrong again.

                                                So I suppose Windows and Photoshop are doing everything right, but Illustrator, InDesign and Acrobat are only using the profile of the primary display. So when viewed on the wide gamut monitor it's all clearly oversaturated (especially in the reds). However, when I set the wide gamut monitor as my main display they use that profile for both resulting in accurate colors on the big monitor and also quite accurate colors on the internal monitor because it's color range is much smaller.

                                                I would declare this a bug in those applications.

                                                • 21. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                  Manko10 Community Member

                                                  Yeah, I guess that's it. :-\

                                                  Thanks to both of you. One last question. What is the system wide default profile on your machine? Mine is "sRGB virtual device model profile" but I'm not sure if this is the real default setting. You can look this up by opening the Windows Color Management panel, clicking on the "Advanced" tab, then auf "Change system defaults" and the going again to the "Advanced" tab. There should be a dropdown labeled "Device profile" under "Windows Color System Defaults".

                                                  What's the value there on your system? Could you maybe post a screen shot? Thanks.

                                                  • 22. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                    Manko10 Community Member

                                                    I now reverted the main display to the internal monitor (because it would cause too much trouble when unplugging the monitor, which I often do). This caused Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat and the Photoshop print preview (but not the actual image inside Photoshop) to produce wrong colors again. Then I assigned the Dell U2711 profile to the internal notebook monitor as well, although it is just a normal gamut monitor.

                                                    The effect is that all applications show colors accurately on the big monitor and about correctly on the small monitor (it's not quite right but at least not too far off and I don't use the small monitor for color consistent work anyway).

                                                    • 23. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                      D Fosse Community Member

                                                      Manko10 wrote:

                                                       

                                                      What is the system wide default profile on your machine? Mine is "sRGB virtual device model profile"

                                                      Never mind that. It's just what the system defaults to if no other profile is present or assigned. This is the one that matters:

                                                      cm.png

                                                      • 24. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                        D Fosse Community Member

                                                        If I were you I'd just connect the Dell and recalibrate. This should set all necessary associations. Then see what it looks like.

                                                        • 25. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                          Manko10 Community Member

                                                          The calibration is all right. I'd just like to know what the default fallback profile is on your system. :-)

                                                          • 26. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                            Manko10 Community Member

                                                            I have filed a bug report. Maybe Adobe will respond and publish a patch which makes those applications aware of dual-monitor color profiles.

                                                            • 27. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                              emil emil Community Member

                                                              The defaults are all the same for all with the default Windows installation and you can change them if you like but as D Fosse said, they don't make any difference if you have a monitor profile assigned as default in the Devices tab. If  you remove all profiles from the Devices tab then these defaults will be used by the color managed  programs. Non-color managed programs are not affected by any of this.

                                                              • 28. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                                Manko10 Community Member

                                                                I thought it might affect how Windows handles images without assigned profiles internally such as the desktop wallpaper. But if you say it has no effect at all, then I don't care.

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks for your support.

                                                                • 29. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                                  D Fosse Community Member

                                                                  Manko10 wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  I thought it might affect how Windows handles images without assigned profiles internally such as the desktop wallpaper.

                                                                  Windows itself has no color management, it just makes profiles available for applications (including some, but not all, native Windows apps). All color management is application-level, not OS-level.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Problem with color management, exported images too saturated
                                                                    Manko10 Community Member

                                                                    I don't mean that it modifies the display of colors in other applications. I meant things like the desktop wallpaper or Windows apps such as the Photo Viewer which are obviously aware of color profiles in images. I thought those might be influenced by this setting if an image does not contain a profile.