18 Replies Latest reply: May 25, 2012 5:23 AM by Steven Pribilinskiy RSS

    Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode

    Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

      With the introduction of ability to select Edit Points, now it's inconvenient to drag multiple selected clips or add clips to selection because in some cases - depending on timeline zoom state and/or clip duration. The edit points are altered instead of the clips, that behaviour drives me nuts. It leads to a necessity to do one of the following actions before selecting and/or dragging multiple clips with comfort:

      • sniper mode - put the cursor over a place in the selection where the cursor will not indicate Edit Point trimming mode.
      • to avoid loosing selection when using sniper mode - Group the clips after adding every clip to selection and/or after a dragging operation
      • dynamically change zoom state so that you will not have to use sniper mode
      • use copy/cut/paste - may involve a necessity to do additional pre-pasting steps

       

      IMHO, this behaviour should be rethinked.

       

      How fast it was in CS5.5 and older versions:

       

      Please, Premiere Pro Programming Team, especially Tim Gogolin, Steve Hoeg, Peter Lee, Gerry Miller, James Mork, Vivek Neelamegam, Axel Schildan, Jerry Scoggins, Sven Skwirblies, Tod Snook, Jesse Zibble, rethink the behaviour of selecting and dragging clips. Start giving links to beta-versions to other editors too, not only to editors like Philip Bloom.

       

      Selecting edit points is sometimes helpful and sometimes distracting.

      To get the best of two worlds (CS6 edit points vs. CS5.5 and older) - a switch could be added to Keyboard Shortcuts list, like the "hidden" Add Clip Marker shortcut.

      Let's name it "Application > Sequence > Select Edit Points".

       

      When Shift- or Shift+Alt- key is pressed and some Clip is selected, clicking on an edit point of another clip should add a clip to selection in the same way as previous versions of Premiere Pro did:

       

      To drag clips in legacy sniper-free mode only a switch can help. Let's name it "Application > Sequence > Select Edit Points when Multiple Clips are Selected".

      To add comfort to the editing process - selecting/dragging multiple clips - additional switches cannot be avoided. Additionally you may add an option to the Preferences > Trim:

      • Allow Selection tool to choose Roll and Ripple trims without modifier key
      • Allow Selection tool to select Edit Points while multiple Clips are selected

       

       

      Feature Request/Bug Report Form

        ******BUG******

      Concise problem statement:Inconveniences when selecting and dragging multiple clips

      Steps to reproduce bug:

      1.Create a Selection of multiple clips with Shift+Click

      2.Try to drag the clips

      Results:With the introduction of ability to select Edit Points, in some cases (depends on timeline zoom state and/or clip duration) now it's inconvenient to select and drag multiple selected clips because the edit points are selected instead of the clips

      Expected results:Clips should be selected/dragged like in CS5.5 and older

      Link: https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

        • 1. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
          JSS1138 Community Member

          I have to admit, I've seen my own work flow slowed to a degree with this new timeline trimming feature.  It is more difficult to use the mouse for actions that were simple before.

          • 2. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
            Ann Bens CommunityMVP

            I dont like it either.

            I am a mouse person.

            Adobe is pussing towards just using the keyboard shortcuts.

            • 3. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
              Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

              I went to NLE school in Hollywood in the 90's. Their mantra was, "never touch the mouse." I rather like the fact that I need to touch the mouse much less in CS6, but this is my personal opinion and the way I was trained.

              • 4. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                JSS1138 Community Member

                I suppose you can't please everybody.

                • 5. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                  Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                  currently I'm slower with cs6, hopefully cs6.5 will fix that

                  workflow.jpg

                  • 6. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                    Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                    Keep at it, Steven. I'm sure you'll gain more speed as you fly with more keyboard shortcuts!

                    • 7. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                      JSS1138 Community Member

                      For myself, I'm not sure why so many editors wanted this feature.  Seems a LOT quicker, and more accurate, to just drag the ends/edit point of a clip than to use JKL for the same purpose.

                      • 8. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                        Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                        Believe me, keyboard is my favorite device, almost all of the functions have an assigned keyboard shortcut, and the workspace in CS6 is now very clean. Furthermore, apart from the factory shortcuts, I have a bunch of macro scripts to drive Premiere editing faster.

                        shortcuts.jpg

                        I have scripts, which detects timeline and playhead location in order to select a clip at the playhead.

                        ^PgUp::udfPPro_SelectClip("Video")

                        ^PgDn::udfPPro_SelectClip("Audio")

                        it's limited to selecting Video/Audio clip on the 1st track only, but in most cases that is enogh.

                        In many cases I work standing like a DJ

                         

                        However, when you need to shuffle clips it's just faster to use Mouse. There's even no need to make a benchmark video, it's obvious.

                        • 9. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                          Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                          Jim Simon wrote:

                           

                          For myself, I'm not sure why so many editors wanted this feature.  Seems a LOT quicker, and more accurate, to just drag the ends/edit point of a clip than to use JKL for the same purpose.

                           

                          We found that editors do want a more keyboard driven workflow. Perhaps they felt like I did? Any time I'm forced to pick up the mouse, I feel that my workflow has slowed down. Before CS6, you were pretty much forced to use the mouse for many operations that are keyboard driven in other NLEs.

                           

                          Dragging is pretty fast, but now I can quickly shuttle to my Out point in trim mode, let go of the L key, toggle to the incoming side, shuttle to the In point, press the down arrow and now I'm on my next edit. Rinse and repeat. It's very fast. Dynamic trimming can also be used to loop an edit point back and forth, while you add and subract frames as you loop.

                           

                          I know it may take time to get used to, but I found that I can do three operations with keyboard shortcuts in the same time as one mouse driven operation.

                          • 10. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                            Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                            Steven Pribilinskiy wrote:

                             

                            Believe me, keyboard is my favorite device, almost all of the functions have an assigned keyboard shortcut, and the workspace in CS6 is now very clean. Furthermore, apart from the factory shortcuts, I have a bunch of macro scripts to drive Premiere editing faster.

                             

                            I have scripts, which detects timeline and playhead location in order to select a clip at the playhead.

                            ^PgUp::udfPPro_SelectClip("Video")

                            ^PgDn::udfPPro_SelectClip("Audio")

                            it's limited to selecting Video/Audio clip on the 1st track only, but in most cases that is enogh.

                            In many cases I work standing like a DJ

                             

                            However, when you need to shuffle clips it's just faster to use Mouse. There's even no need to make a benchmark video, it's obvious.

                             

                            That's pretty cool. Glad you are such a keyboard scientist! You know many editors stand up as they edit, as they used to with the Moviola. Walter Murch stands and he's my personal fave editor.
                            Shuffling clips? That might be one thing that is hard to do with keyboard shortcuts. Let me look into that.

                            • 11. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                              Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                              It's even healthier, my back is not aches anymore

                               

                              Shuffling is laborious, here is a benchmark for the simplest mouse task:

                               

                              I've tried using a marker, it's just a 3 second faster.

                              I believe Walter Murch could do it maybe 2x times faster, but mouse controller will win the fight in all cases.

                              And Walter probably doesn't need shuffling often, because of chronological nature of his work

                               

                              I can do three operations with keyboard shortcuts in the same time as one mouse driven operation.

                              Do you mean long-distance menu commands like "Sequence > Go to Gap > Next"?

                              There are a few mouse operations that you can't perform with keyboard commands, they are not available yet. It's interesting that After Effects obtained all of them a long time ago: Selecting Clips (Selecting Layers in AE with Numpad Keys), Locking Tracks, Track Visibility (Layer Visibility in AE). And vice-versa, After Effects doesn't have keys to Nudge Clips a specified amount of time, like in Premiere when you select a clip(s) you can use Numpad Keys to Nudge them to a specific time. But After Effects is scriptable, it's easy to write some Java scripts and hook keyboard shortcuts to them.

                               

                              I would say keyboard editing is much more precise than using a mouse. Using a mouse involves frequently changing snapping mode and zoom levels to get precision.

                              • 12. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                JSS1138 Community Member

                                I can do three operations with keyboard shortcuts in the same time as one mouse driven operation.

                                 

                                I'd still bet that someone used to trimming with the mouse can get the job done faster (using the old version, of course, as trimming with the mouse has been somewhat interfered with while adding the new keyboard method.).

                                • 13. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                  Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                                  That's right, in order to have both methods under your fingers, switches should be added to next version of Premiere. Please send a Feature Request if you can.

                                  In the same way as you probably get used to (if you use mouse) pressing "S" to switch Snapping mode, following switches would help perform the job with Keyboard and Mouse in tandem:

                                  • Allow Selecting Edit Points

                                         totally disable selecting edit points, legacy behaviour

                                  • Allow Selection tool to select Edit Points when multiple Clips are selected

                                         disable selecting edit points when more than 1 clilp is selected - for easy drag'n'drop operations

                                  • 14. Re: CS6 trimming
                                    Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                                    Even better if an icon will be added near the Snapping mode icon to denote one of the Editing Mode states:

                                    1. Edit Point(s) are Selectable and remain selected after Edit (CS6)
                                    2. Edit Point(s) are Selectable and remain selected after Edit except when multiple clips are selected (CS6)
                                    3. Edit Point is Not Selectable (Premiere 1.0 - 6.5c, Premiere Pro CS1 - CS5.5)

                                     

                                    When multiple Clips are selected (2nd Editing Mode) - to select an Edit Point, Clips should be deselected with "Ctrl+Shift+A" or a click in an empty space. Probably 2nd Editing mode will be the ultimate, most used mode, but better give the choice to editor.

                                     

                                    Vote for this switch: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

                                    Then maybe it will be added sooner, let's say in 6.0.1 version.

                                    • 15. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                      Jack Banatoni Community Member

                                      I can respect that people who started on NLEs in the early days are more keyboard oriented, but a lot of people learning today are primarily mouse editors.  I've been doing this for about ten years, so I'm half keyboard/half mouse.  I'm all in favor of adding new options to Premiere, but not at all in favor of seeing pre-existing methods vanish.  Sure, you had more users ask for a keyboard driven workflow, but I doubt you were getting a lot of messages telling you the way it already worked was fine for most people.  That's just the nature of feedback.

                                       

                                      Absolutely agree with Steven's icon suggestion.  That would definitely benefit both user preferences.

                                      • 16. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                        David Zeno Community Member

                                        With all due respect Kevin, nobody at Adobe has the right to change a program SO drastically.  I am also a mouse person, and am MUCH faster using the mouse, vs the keyboard. 

                                         

                                        When people have invested YEARS into a program like Adobe, they get used to things, how things work, the feel of a program.  I really don't see how you all can just change it on a whim.  IF you are going to do this, BOTH methods should still work.  You cannot just stop the way people are used to editing.  You can't just decide to change a program so drastically, that it doesn't feel like a program we have grown to love over many long years.  If Adobe on a whole is changing things, just because a few people in your company voice opinions like I've quoted below, it's not the way to go.  Adobe should be really putting feelers out there, and seeing how people are really using the program.  Things should be getting easier, more powerful, sure that's natural, but you can't just decide to remove things that mouse users do every day. :-(

                                         

                                        Upgrading a program, and changing it to this degree, are two different things in my book.  I have not yet upgraded, but it is very scary - the things I'm seeing.  For one, way way too many bugs.  The amount of bugs on so many boards being reported are just beyond comprehension. 

                                         

                                        And a final note, I for one, am very glad Steven is posting these videos ( I'd like to hear him go through steps though - just watching the video with no audio of what he is doing is not so great, however after watching some of his posts, he's knows what he's doing, and has a good head to think with )

                                         

                                        I mostly read posts, but I thought I would voice my opinion, if none of us speak up, nothing will get changed.  I'm really hoping that Adobe implements some change in the next revision .5 or whatever it will be called.  Reading posts like this one are really depressing.  Did you watch Steven's video on a simple task as moving multiple clips around on a timeline ?  Doing this with a mouse just isn't going to work for many, removing simple tasks by way of using a mouse would stop me from upgrading.

                                         

                                        Please address this in upcoming updates.

                                         

                                        Dave.

                                         

                                        Kevin Monahan wrote:

                                         

                                        I went to NLE school in Hollywood in the 90's. Their mantra was, "never touch the mouse." I rather like the fact that I need to touch the mouse much less in CS6, but this is my personal opinion and the way I was trained.

                                        • 17. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                          JSS1138 Community Member

                                          For one, way way too many bugs.

                                           

                                          I've only seen maybe two or three genuine bugs reported so far.  I think most of what you're seeing is people opening old projects that don't translate perfectly, people new to the program who don't yet know how to work it, people who have a local, system level issue that isn't reproducible across multiple systems, and people who use Macs.

                                           

                                          For the most part, CS6 has been very stable and very usable on two separate Windows machines.

                                          • 18. Re: Selecting and Dragging multiple clips - CS6 Sniper mode
                                            Steven Pribilinskiy Community Member

                                            Thank you David for appreciation.

                                            These are not tutorials, decided to leave microphone off

                                            At first I wanted to describe my experience just by typing, but because personally I love better to see once than just read was the result of firing up HyperCam and Camtasia and making the screen records.

                                             

                                            Jim, tomorrow will do a clean install of W7-SP1 and the latest nVidia drivers v301.42. Hopefully you're right about the local, system level issues.

                                             

                                            Premiere Pro's stability is great since v1.5, this issue is not a feature request, but a pray to change the behaviour. There's no radiobutton for Change Behaviour in the "Feature Request/Bug Report Form", only Feature Request or Bug Report. However assuming that by most programmers Bugs are fixed in the first place after a Major version release - the issue cannot be a Feature Request, so it's closer to Bug and hopefully the switch will be added sooner in some hot-fix version.