22 Replies Latest reply: May 30, 2012 4:34 PM by J. Simon RSS

    Stutter, jitter, whatever.

    abekutter


      The real title of this post should be: "dang that FCP/h.264/5DII baloney!".

       

      After having much trouble on FCP and being unable to resolve it, I've dusted off my copy of CS5 and started to learn it. Not transcoding is SWEET.

       

      I'm aware some of this stuff I'm asking about has been talked to death, but I did look hard and am

      not finding the specific solution I need.

       

      I thought I knew this stuff, for the most part.

      I've certainly done it successfully in the past, however, that was on a tower, FCP 7,

      in an XDCAM network TV environment.

       

      Now, using my own laptop and FCP 6.0.6 I am having the very devil of a time,

      and FAILING utterly to understand the whys.

       

      With the 5DII shooting 29.97, every transcode tool and flavor except one has failed dramatically to

      produce first rate results when using FCP. Even the one that works is not perfect.

       

      I've got a bad case of the jitters.

       

      Some of the transcodes produce files that jitter.

      Some produce files that play fine in the FCP Viewer but jitter once they are on the timeline.

      Rendering just produces jittery rendered files.  The same holds true for CS5.

       

      Tried Streamclip after trying Log and Transfer, or as I like to call it, shiftapple8.

       

      The best FCP results have been with Prores 422HQ capture through shiftapple8 and XDCAM 1080P 30 VBR.

       

      Even that is unsatisfactory in some CU pans.

       

      So, using small words so I can understand, (pretend you're talking to your cat) could someone be so kind, please, as to provide a 'recipe'?

       

      As in:

       

      Set your CS5 project up like this. Capture, project, timeline, all you consider critical.

      Why always helps.

       

      Transcode like this. Ditto.

       

      The Mac is a 1st gen 17" unibody, maxed, 4g RAM, the drive is a Sonnet F2 twin ESATA to Expresscard34.

      But while that makes a difference in edit and playback, it should not make a difference in rendered output.

      right?

       

      May the thoughput be with you.

       

      And what is up with this text editor!?

        • 1. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
          J. Simon Community Member

          Eeesh!  That's hard to read.

          • 2. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
            abekutter Community Member

            Yes it is!
            Dont know what goofed. It did it when I saved. I'll take another crack at it. Meantime, just highlight it.

            • 3. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
              J. Simon Community Member

              Dont know what goofed.

               

              Make sure you log into the forum through your browser to post and read.  Don't use e-mail or other external applications.  Also, don't copy/paste your post from another app, like Word or some other text editor.  Type it directly into the response window in the browser.

              • 4. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                abekutter Community Member

                Thanks. Will have to re-type.

                • 5. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                  J. Simon Community Member

                  1) Copy the entire contents of the SD card to the hard drive using Finder.  (Do NOT use any FCP media, use only the original from the card.)

                  2) Open Premiere Pro and start a new project.  (Hit Cancel when the sequence dialog pops up.)

                  3) Use the Media Browser to navigate to the 5D folder you just copied and use that to import the clips you want.

                  4) Take a clip and drag it down to the New Item icon at the bottom of the Project pane.  That will create a new sequence that exactly matches your footage.

                  5) Edit away.

                  6) Export is trickier because there are variables that will alter with your export needs.

                  • 6. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                    abekutter Community Member

                    Thanks Jim! On it. If you have a mo', care to expound on the why's of the stutter?

                    Since you mention it, it's for the web, Brightcove will host. Issues, suggestions?

                     

                    Cheers!

                    • 7. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                      Jeff Bellune ACP

                      Jim Simon wrote:

                       

                      Eeesh!  That's hard to read.

                      Fixed.

                      • 8. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                        abekutter Community Member

                        Gracias!

                        • 9. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                          John T Smith MVP

                          >Set your CS5 project up like this

                           

                          Here is a picture... http://forums.adobe.com/thread/872666

                          • 10. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                            abekutter Community Member

                            Did it exactly as Jim said. Here's the result.:

                             

                            http://bcove.me/cesgm11z

                             

                            I am in a world of hurt. I simply do not understand the origin of the problem.

                             

                            I double checked the camera. Firmware is the latest, video is set at 1920x1080/30, so it's at 29.97. The metadata bears this out.

                            I was conscientious about keeping to 180 degrees of shutter. Which means I ran at 30 or 60 as I was indoors with natural light.

                             

                            In the event it was a processing issue affected by system resource availability, I did a massive cleanup of the desktop, the hard drive, I ran antivirus, I repaired disk permissions. I trashed 80 gigs worth of music!

                             

                            So. What do you think? I hear MickeyD is hiring.

                            • 11. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                              J. Simon Community Member

                              How does it look inside of PP?

                              • 12. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                abekutter Community Member

                                Looks good on the 'player' side, but once it hits the TL or is exported it goes wonky,

                                • 13. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                  J. Simon Community Member

                                  OK then.

                                   

                                  Post the specifics of the clips, and then post the specifics of the sequence they're in.

                                  • 14. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                    abekutter Community Member

                                    The clip format per FCP is:

                                     

                                    29.97

                                    1920x1080

                                    H.264

                                    5.7MB/s

                                    square

                                    upper (Odd)

                                    none/ignore

                                    normal

                                    2 mono

                                    48Khz

                                    16-bit integer

                                     

                                    Sequence setting (TL) per FCP is:

                                     

                                    1920x1080

                                    HDTV 1080I (16:9)    (((((Tried setting at 'p', made no diff)))))))

                                    square

                                    none

                                    Apple ProRes 422HQ

                                    100%

                                    48khz

                                    16-bit

                                    channel grouped

                                     

                                    In PP, dragging it over from the CF card using Media Browser:

                                     

                                    Type: MPEG Movie

                                    Image Size: 1920 x 1080

                                    Pixel Depth: 32

                                    Frame Rate: 29.97

                                    Source Audio Format: 48000 Hz - compressed - Stereo

                                    Project Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 32 bit floating point - Stereo

                                    Total Duration: 00;00;19;24

                                    Average Data Rate: 5.6 MB / second

                                    Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.0

                                     

                                    The timeline, getting properties off the project window:

                                     

                                    1920 x 1080

                                    00;00;30;00, 29.97 fps

                                    48000 Hz - Mono

                                     

                                    The timeline, getting properties off the timeline:

                                     

                                    Type: MPEG Movie

                                    File Size: 170.6 MB

                                    Image Size: 1920 x 1080

                                    Pixel Depth: 32

                                    Frame Rate: 29.97

                                    Source Audio Format: 48000 Hz - compressed - Stereo

                                    Project Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 32 bit floating point - Stereo

                                    Total Duration: 00;00;30;00

                                    Average Data Rate: 5.7 MB / second

                                    Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.0

                                     

                                    That was fun.

                                    • 15. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                      J. Simon Community Member

                                      The clip format per FCP is:

                                       

                                      Take FCP entirely out of the loop.  Do not start it at all for any of this.  Do not use any media that has ever been touched by FCP.  Use Premiere Pro only.

                                      • 16. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                        J. Simon Community Member

                                        The timeline, getting properties off the project window:

                                         

                                        1920 x 1080

                                        00;00;30;00, 29.97 fps

                                        48000 Hz - Mono

                                         

                                        That part confuses me.

                                        • 17. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                          abekutter Community Member

                                          yes, absolutely, keeping FCP and PP media and workflows completely segregated.

                                          Though at one point I did experiment with exporting my entire FCP project into PP and...

                                          surprisingly painless! Still shittered, so I trashed it.

                                           

                                          Jim, RE your #16, you can get settings off the timeline itself, or you can get them off the timeline icon in the project window. #16 is the latter. Sorry. New to Adobe, very unclear on jargon.

                                          • 18. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                            J. Simon Community Member

                                            OK.

                                             

                                            Your sequence and your media are different.  That suggests you did not perform step 4 from post 5.  Back up and do it that way.

                                            • 19. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                              abekutter Community Member

                                              You mean the FCP sequence, right? Yes, I noticed that. Pretty sure I did it exactly right, but happy to try it again.

                                               

                                              Made a discovery by sticking the CF card back in the camera. As I mentioned,  the footage, as unmessed-with as possible, plays fine in both FCP and PP 'Player' sides. Only once it hits a timeline does it go bad. Well, when you try to review the clip in camera, the clip I showed you and about four subsequent clips on that card, cause the camera to display a still thumbnail of the video, and the words "cannot play back image".

                                               

                                              Hmmmmmmm.......Bad CF card? Cosmic rays? Freakin' sharks wearin' freakin' lasers?

                                               

                                              But is this even relevant?

                                               

                                              Remember, the clips play in the NLE'S.

                                               

                                              They play with a small amount of horizontal tearing, especially in full screen, but I've seen that artifact a hundred times and never have been able to associate it with any downsides.

                                               

                                              So I've been messing with this for three days now, and in desperation I thought to go back way back, to the issues I had with

                                              FCP3 and 4 and the hardware I had back then, the same issue that prompted me to get a Sonnet F2, which solved it.

                                               

                                              Dropped frames.

                                               

                                              Sure enough. It definitely is a problem in playback of the timeline. There definitely seems to be a problem exporting.

                                              The question is why the export problem. I had understood that FCP (dont know enough about PP), upon export, performed

                                              substantial error correction of this very thing. IE it recognizes when dropped frames occur on export, backs up, and stitches up the gap. Right? Wrong?

                                               

                                              Now, if I'm right, I need to figure out where the bottleneck lies. Is it the F2? A couple years old, but few hours.

                                              Or the Mac, a couple years old, boatloads of hard use. Ideas how to troubleshoot?

                                               

                                              Oh and I got curious about my RAM utilization and discovered that I am in a serious deficit for whatever reason.

                                              Apple says to do what I'm doing all you need is 4gigs. They also state that if you see a number of page outs in Activity Monitor

                                              that is greater than zero...you need more RAM for what you're doing. I'm hitting 6.

                                              • 20. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                                J. Simon Community Member

                                                You mean the FCP sequence, right?

                                                 

                                                No.  Again, leave that closed.  Forget about it.  Uninstall it even.  From now on, FCP does not exist.

                                                 

                                                I meant the Premiere Pro sequence.  It doesn't exactly match your media.  So go back to post 5 and make sure you're performing step 4.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                it recognizes when dropped frames occur on export, backs up, and stitches up the gap. Right? Wrong?

                                                 

                                                Wrong.  There is no such thing as a "dropped frame" during an export from Premiere Pro or AME.  A print to tape maybe, which runs in real time.  But that's not what you're doing here.  Exporting takes all the time it needs, processing every frame in turn, never skipping any.

                                                • 21. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                                  abekutter Community Member

                                                  Sorry to bail on this. Bottom line is that the saga continues. Been busy, as you'll see.

                                                   

                                                  Just as an aside, why is it an acceptable state of affairs that these pricey products are so damn touchy touchy touchy,

                                                  so damn buggy buggy buggy? Why are we, all of us, not continuously harassing the publishers to make them more robust, more

                                                  transparent, and to do more to help us when their dodgy products go badeep?

                                                   

                                                  Enough.

                                                   

                                                  Here's where I am today, and let this be a lesson to all:

                                                   

                                                  I was getting nowhere. I followed the (generously given) instructions I received here, to the letter. Repeatedly.

                                                  Nothing changed.

                                                   

                                                  I cleaned up the laptop, bigtime. Nothing.

                                                  So I delved deeper into the vitality of my drives and RAM, and discovered that there were a whole lot of processes going on in the background

                                                  that I could not turn off even after deleting the app. Yes, you, Verizon. Among others.

                                                   

                                                  Here's where I really went wrong: I listened to Apple, in the person of the manager at my local Apple store.

                                                   

                                                  He recommended I start over. Backup, reinstall the OS, reinstall the NLE's (PP, FCP, MC).

                                                   

                                                  Desperate times...

                                                   

                                                  Did it. As a result, I am in worse shape than ever. NOTHING WORKS.

                                                   

                                                  Lame #1:

                                                  PP (5) couldn't compile media owing to an unknown error. That's helpful, Adobe, thank you. ....And then suddenly it could.

                                                  Then it couldn't play video for more than a few and varying number of frames. Repaired permissions,

                                                  and now it plays. Working it. No doubt there are other probs, but as of today it is NOT stuttering. Yay.

                                                   

                                                  Lame #2:

                                                  Composer won't let me in because it thinks I'm trying to run two machines when I only own one license. 

                                                  That should be easy to resolve if Avid ever responds.

                                                  Then we'll see what else is broken.

                                                   

                                                  Lame #3:

                                                  FCP won't open at all. I get a crazy error message telling me to check with the developer because the app may not be compatible with the OS.

                                                  Oh, Apple, please. There's just one little line of something or other missing or corrupt, on a fresh install, and this is what happens?

                                                   

                                                  Lame.

                                                  Lame.

                                                  Lame.

                                                   

                                                  So if anyone out there feels my pain, please do share your wisdom on any or all of these issues.

                                                  If I sound pissed off, well, where would your head be after pounding it against this wall for over a week?

                                                   

                                                  May the throughput be with you.

                                                   

                                                  [Edited for content]

                                                  • 22. Re: Stutter, jitter, whatever.
                                                    J. Simon Community Member

                                                    Apple, please.

                                                     

                                                    I couldn't agree more.

                                                     

                                                    [Edited for content]