27 Replies Latest reply: Jun 2, 2012 12:10 PM by JSS1138 RSS

    Exporting DNxHD in 10bit

    Crooked Path Films Community Member

      I cannot get my export of DNxHD to export in 10-bit depth.  The original file is DNxHD 10-bit, but when I export using the settings pictured in the attached pic and re-import and do any color grading...it's clear that it has shifted to 8 bit. 

       

      1) There are no non 32 bit effects on the footage.

      2) the sequence is setup for max bit depth.

      3) When i grade the clip before exporting and re-importing, it is clearly 10bit.

       

      I record to DNxHD 10 bit and like to use DNxHD as my intermediate when sending to other programs or just want to flatten a complicated part of the timeline.  My other options produce too huge of files (animation, dpx, etc) and I really would like to keep it in the family.

       

      Any thoughts how I can get Premiere to export DNxHD to a 10-bit?export1.jpgexport2.jpg

        • 1. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
          JSS1138 Community Member

          .it's clear that it has shifted to 8 bit. 

           

          What makes it so 'clear'?

          • 2. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
            Crooked Path Films Community Member

            Jim, in layman's terms, when you add extreme contrast to gradients in an 8bit image, you see obvious banding and "stair-stepping" appear because there are reduced steps from black to white to start with.  Adding contrast doesn't add the 'steps' back in...it just makes the existing (or lack of) step more apparant.  10 bit doesn't show such banding.  I'm not at my studio right now otherwise I would show you the comparison.  It's obvious.

            • 3. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
              Crooked Path Films Community Member

              Any other thoughts from anyone?  Been looking for an answer but it seems to either be a DNxHD issues or Premiere issue.  I really don't want to use gi-normous uncompressed files for intermediates.

              • 4. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                Crooked Path Films Community Member

                Okay, here's a screenshot.  You will notice the crazy banding on the left after grading is applied to this clip.  This clip was an exported DNxHD 10-bit file to the aforementioned settings without grading, imported into premiere, and graded.  I also graded the original before exporting and the banding is non-existant.Bit1.jpg

                Here's a link to a 1920 file: http://www.adrive.com/public/6fw8nG/Bit1.jpg

                • 5. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                  CSTeam3 Community Member

                  444.PNGRichard,

                   

                  Have you tried the DNxHD 444 10-bit.  If you download the trial of Avid the codec installers are in there and work in Premiere, too.

                   

                  Worth a shot.

                  • 6. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                    Crooked Path Films Community Member

                    Thanks!  Let me make sure I understand.  You mean the codecs I got don't have that 444 option...and the only way I can get it is to download the trial of Avid Media Composer?

                    • 7. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                      Crooked Path Films Community Member

                      I just thought of this.  Perhaps the aspect (1920x817) is throwing it off?  I'll test it tomorrow.

                      • 8. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                        CSTeam3 Community Member

                        Yeah, I found this quite by accident when I downloaded the Avid trial and noticed the Procodecs were there.  Anyhow you can see they indicate 444.

                         

                        But your second post makes me think your odd resolution more probably could be causing the banding.

                        • 9. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                          JSS1138 Community Member

                          here's a screenshot.

                           

                          Even at 8 bits, I've never seen banding that bad.  I'm inclined to say something else is going on here.

                           

                          On another note, things often work out better when your frame dimensions are evenly divisible by 8.

                          • 10. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                            Crooked Path Films Community Member

                            Even at 8 bits, I've never seen banding that bad.  I'm inclined to say something else is going on here.

                             

                            It looks worse than the normal banding you're probably used to for the following reasons: 1) This was shot in Sony S-log, a very flat gamma.  S-log gamma is very unforgiving in 8-bit especially with this amount of contrast applied in post.  2) There is a gaussian blur mask over this particular portion...making the banding even worse.  When the blur is off...the banding is still there, it just look closer to what you're probably used to seeing. 

                             

                            On another note, things often work out better when you frame dimensions are evenly divisible by 8.

                             

                            Interesting, I've never heard of this.  Please explain.  When I do the "scope" crop...I'll do 1920x816 instead if what you say is true.

                            • 11. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                              Crooked Path Films Community Member

                              Okay after some troubleshooting, I narrowed down the problem to the Gaussian Blur effect.  This is indeed marked as a 32-bit effect, but it seems when exporting to DNxHD (I haven't tried any other codecs), it clamps to 8-bit.  The clamping doesn't happen within Premiere though (when I add Gaussian Blur AND extreme contrast to the clip on the timeline), only when the video is exported.

                               

                              Screenshot #1: Added Gaussian Blur, exported to DNxHD (again above settings), imported into Premiere, Added extreme contrast using fast color corrector.

                              Screenshot #2: No effects, exported to DNxHD, imported into Premiere, added Gaussian Blur, added extreme contrast using fast color corrector.

                               

                              8-bit.jpg

                              16-bit.jpg

                              • 12. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                Averdahl Community Member

                                Richard,

                                 

                                I would have un-checked "Render at Maximum Depth" in the Export Settings dialog and try again. You have already specified 10-bit in the DNxHD Codec configuration so i see no need in then telling Pr to render out to 24-bit by using the "Render at Maximum Depth" option in the Export Settings dialog. Maybe that's the problem, telling the exporter to do 10-bit via the codec configuration and at the same time tell it to do 24-bit via the Export Settings. (I would have skipped the "Render at Maximum Depth" no matter what when going to DNxHD.)

                                 

                                If the problem persists, place the media in a 1920 x 1080 timeline and render out to 1920 x 1080. Maybe DNxHD cannot handle non-broadcast frame sizes.

                                 

                                If the problem still presists, try another codec to see if it is a codec related issue or not.

                                 

                                /Roger

                                • 13. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                  Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                  Averdahl wrote:

                                   

                                  Richard,

                                   

                                  I would have un-checked "Render at Maximum Depth" in the Export Settings dialog and try again. You have already specified 10-bit in the DNxHD Codec configuration so i see no need in then telling Pr to render out to 24-bit by using the "Render at Maximum Depth" option in the Export Settings dialog. Maybe that's the problem, telling the exporter to do 10-bit via the codec configuration and at the same time tell it to do 24-bit via the Export Settings. (I would have skipped the "Render at Maximum Depth" no matter what when going to DNxHD.)

                                   

                                  If the problem persists, place the media in a 1920 x 1080 timeline and render out to 1920 x 1080. Maybe DNxHD cannot handle non-broadcast frame sizes.

                                   

                                  If the problem still presists, try another codec to see if it is a codec related issue or not.

                                   

                                  /Roger

                                   

                                  Roger...looks like we posted at the same time.  The issue was the Gaussian Blur effect.

                                  • 14. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                    Averdahl Community Member

                                    Yes, but maybe the issue goes away if you do un-check the "Render at Maximum Depth" when you use the Gaussian Blur.

                                     

                                    What version of Pr?

                                    GPU Acceleration on or off?

                                    Can you post a screen shot of the Timeline?

                                     

                                    /Roger

                                    • 15. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                      Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                      Yes, but maybe the issue goes away if you do un-check the "Render at Maximum Depth" when you use the Gaussian Blur.

                                       

                                      Just went and tried it.  Unchecked this option and still was banded.

                                       

                                      What version of Pr?

                                      GPU Acceleration on or off?

                                      Can you post a screen shot of the Timeline?

                                       

                                      Version 6.0.1

                                      MPE enabled

                                      Screeshot:

                                       

                                      timeline.png

                                       

                                      Another theory...it's a CS6 bug.  (Been using it for 2 weeks and there are ALOT of strange little bugs)  I'm going to do the same test in 5.5 and see if the problem exists. 

                                      • 16. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                        Averdahl Community Member

                                        Can you post a screen shot of the Timeline when you have all filters on the clip, ie a screen shot from the Timeline you are exporting from. (I should have been more clear.)

                                         

                                        /Roger

                                        • 17. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                          Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                          Okay I just tried the expirement in CS5.5 and it has the same problem.  I also tried exporting to DPX to see if it occurs on that type of file and it did NOT have the problem.  So far it's only limited to DNxHD.  I'm going to try more variation in the Avid codec settings and see where that gets me.  Perhaps encoding to the higher bitrates/framerates.

                                          Averdahl wrote:

                                           

                                          Can you post a screen shot of the Timeline when you have all filters on the clip, ie a screen shot from the Timeline you are exporting from. (I should have been more clear.)

                                           

                                          /Roger

                                           

                                          I don't understand.  You mean a screenshot of the effects controls panel?

                                          • 18. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                            Averdahl Community Member

                                            The screen shot you posted of the Timeline have one clip with *no* filters on it, and since filters are involved with the issue it would have been nice to see the actual Timeline you are exporting from, with the clips that has filters on them. (I have seen issues when the fault was in the timeline itself and not within the codec, hence the request.)

                                             

                                            Since you now have found out that it is a codec issue there is no need to post a new screen shot.

                                             

                                            /Roger

                                            • 19. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                              Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                              Okay another update.  I pulled in some other shots...and it does appear to be the codec and NOT the Gaussian Blur effect.  The fault in my testing was that I was applying the blur after importing the exported DNxHD file and hereby obliterating the banding.  The new clip I'm testing is a shot of a wall with the lens out of focus, creating a nice, smooth gradient to test with.

                                              Here's my updated test:

                                               

                                              Screenshot #1: Exported to DNxHD, imported into Premiere, added extreme contrast using fast color corrector.

                                              Screenshot #2: Original clip, added extreme contrast using fast color corrector.

                                               

                                              8-bit2.jpg

                                              16-bit2.jpg

                                              • 20. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                                I just noticed that I'm running the v2.3.4 version of the Avid codecs.  There is apparantly a 2.3.7 version.  Installing now...

                                                • 21. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                  Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                                  EUREKA!

                                                   

                                                  Found out that the clamping occurs when certain bit depth options are selected in the export panel.  Apparantly when 24bit or 32bit is selected, it clamps to 8bit.  But when 48bit or 64bit is chosen, no clamping occurs.  I wonder if this is limited to DNxHD or not.

                                                   

                                                  clamping.png

                                                  • 22. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                    JSS1138 Community Member

                                                    I've never heard of this.  Please explain.

                                                     

                                                    Most deliverables these days use some form of MPEG compression - broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, web, phones and tablets,  etc.  The MPEG 2 codec divides the frame up into 8 x 8 "blocks" of pixels for encoding, so things work out best when the entire frame fits an even number of blocks.

                                                     

                                                    Do the math on every standard resolution.  You'll find both dimensions are evenly divisible by 8.  This is not by accident.

                                                    • 23. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                      JSS1138 Community Member

                                                      Apparently when 24bit or 32bit is selected, it clamps to 8bit.

                                                       

                                                      This makes perfect sense.  The 24 represents all three channels of RGB; 3 x 8 =24.  The 32 adds the alpha.

                                                      • 24. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                        Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                                        Jim Simon wrote:

                                                         

                                                        I've never heard of this.  Please explain.

                                                         

                                                        Most deliverables these days use some form of MPEG compression - broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, web, phones and tablets,  etc.  The MPEG 2 codec divides the frame up into 8 x 8 "blocks" of pixels for encoding, so things work out best when the entire frame fits an even number of blocks.

                                                         

                                                        Do the math on every standard resolution.  You'll find both dimensions are evenly divisible by 8.  This is not by accident.

                                                         

                                                        Oh okay, you're referring to deliverables, not intermediates.  I don't think the critera is necessarily the same.

                                                        • 25. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                          JSS1138 Community Member

                                                          Well, unless you're planing to cop the Intermediate, the criteria probably should be the same.  I mean, even every acquisition format follows this rule.  So it's generally a good idea to keep that rule in place throughout the post production chain.

                                                          • 26. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                            Crooked Path Films Community Member

                                                            I guess I should keep the ratio (1920x1080) intact and letterbox, cropping only if a deliverable requires it.  So I'll change it to 816 instead if I need to crop to scope. 

                                                            • 27. Re: Exporting DNxHD in 10bit
                                                              JSS1138 Community Member

                                                              You can also use my new Cropping presets if you like to use as a  'guide'.

                                                               

                                                              http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1010578?tstart=60