27 Replies Latest reply: Jun 14, 2012 11:18 AM by areohbee RSS

    CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear

    PIXIllate22

      So when I open a new D700 shot in ACR with CS6 and go to the point curve panel it defaults to Custom. Which appears to have about 10-12 points on it and looks like it is providing a slight lift in the shadows and a slight dip in the highlights. I can select linear and I know how to save this as the new default I'm just curious what the Custom curve is and where it comes from. I'm using the V.4 Neutral profile if that makes any difference.

       

      I've not seen this mentioned anywhere. Anyone understand it?

        • 1. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
          Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

          It's coming from converting a PV2010 Linear curve into PV2012.

          • 2. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
            PIXIllate22 Community Member

            But it's appearing on brand new files that I have never opened in PV2010 and my default for the camera is PV2012.

            Still dosen't make sense to me .

            • 3. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
              Noel Carboni Community Member

              I saw the same thing.  It's what's stored in your Camera Raw defaults.  Where did they come from?  Chances are you had saved a set of PV2010 Camera Raw Defaults at one time in the past, and which were migrated to become PV2012 Camera Raw Defaults.

               

              You can reset it to Linear as you like, simply by saving new Camera Raw defaults.

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                PIXIllate22 Community Member

                OK. So which one is REALLY linear and why the difference?

                • 5. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                  areohbee Community Member

                  PV2012 linear is equivalent to PV2010 medium contrast.

                   

                  So, if you want a PV2010 linear equivalent in PV2012, you'll have to brew your own. I gave a recipe for how to do this using DNG Profile Editor in another thread, but not sure where that is now. This approach has the advantage that you start without a bunch of points already on your curve in ACR.

                   

                  But if you select linear in PV2010 then convert to PV2012 - that's the equivalent, which can be saved as a preset, if you don't mind having all those points...

                   

                  Cheers,

                  Rob

                  • 6. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                    PIXIllate22 Community Member

                    Rob,

                     

                    Thanks. I think I'm beginning to understand what is happening. I'm not sure why Adobe would make anything as Linear other than a flat line. Any reading I can do on the reasoning behind this move?

                     

                    I guess as long as I know what it is doing I can work with it. It also explains the huge contrast bump I get when switching to Linear in PV2012. I would be interested in reading about how to get back to a real Linear default without all of the points as I used to have a VERY mild contrast S curve I would apply to images from time to time and it will be difficult to do that accuratly otherwise.\

                     

                    Thanks to everyone for the help.

                     

                    Chris

                    • 7. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                      areohbee Community Member

                      I'm not sure you'll find a satifying rationale - it has been discussed extensively and debated passionately in the Lightroom beta forum, among other forums.

                       

                      I think people who tend to like contrastier images aren't fretting as much as the lower contrast (starting point) preferrers.

                       

                      I usually just crank contrast down, then maybe adjust tone curve to taste, when need be...

                       

                      Cheers,

                      Rob

                      • 8. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                        PIXIllate22 Community Member

                        So is there any chance Adobe will at least give us back a Flat option, even if it isn't the default?

                        • 9. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                          areohbee Community Member

                          Highly unlikely, me-thinks.

                           

                          But again, you can do it yourself using DNG Profile Editor.

                           

                          I wish I could find the link, or the data you need, but can't.

                           

                          But here is what I did: I used PV2010 linear in Lightroom, clicked PV2012, then saved a preset (does ACR support presets?) checking only tone/point curve, then using a text editor, converted it to the format required in DNG Profile Editor (recipe), and inserted it into a recipe file.

                           

                          On the other hand, you can accomplish something close to the linear equivalent point curve using -contrast.

                           

                          Found it - replace tone curve in dcpr file (DPE recipe) with this and you've got linear equivalent:

                           

                          <dngclr:ToneCurve rdf:parseType="Resource">

                              <dngclr:Edit0 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>0</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>0</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit0>

                              <dngclr:Edit1 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>17</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>26</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit1>

                              <dngclr:Edit2 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>34</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>44</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit2>

                              <dngclr:Edit3 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>51</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>60</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit3>

                              <dngclr:Edit4 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>68</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>74</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit4>

                              <dngclr:Edit5 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>85</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>89</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit5>

                              <dngclr:Edit6 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>102</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>105</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit6>

                              <dngclr:Edit7 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>119</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>120</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit7>

                              <dngclr:Edit8 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>136</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>135</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit8>

                              <dngclr:Edit9 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>153</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>151</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit9>

                              <dngclr:Edit10 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>170</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>167</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit10>

                              <dngclr:Edit11 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>187</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>183</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit11>

                              <dngclr:Edit12 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>204</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>200</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit12>

                              <dngclr:Edit13 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>221</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>218</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit13>

                              <dngclr:Edit14 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>238</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>236</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit14>

                              <dngclr:Edit15 rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                 <dngclr:X>255</dngclr:X>

                                 <dngclr:Y>255</dngclr:Y>

                              </dngclr:Edit15>

                          </dngclr:ToneCurve>

                          • 10. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                            Jeff Schewe Community Member

                            PIXIllate22 wrote:

                             

                            So is there any chance Adobe will at least give us back a Flat option, even if it isn't the default?

                             

                            No...

                            • 11. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                              PIXIllate22 Community Member

                              Rob,

                               

                              Thanks a lot. You`ve been really helpful.

                              I`ll have to do some reading on Recipies to catch back up.

                              It`s been a few years since I looked at that stuff.

                              Any good links?

                               

                               

                              Jeff - Thanks for the definitive answer. At least I know not to look for it from Adobe.

                                      Don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on why you think they did this?

                               

                              Chris

                              • 12. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                PIXIllate22 wrote:

                                 

                                So is there any chance Adobe will at least give us back a Flat option, even if it isn't the default?

                                 

                                I'm not sure what Jeff is answering, but could you be more specific what you mean by "Flat option"?

                                 

                                You can, of course, save your own Camera Raw defaults so that they look like this by simply setting the Curve: to Linear.  Then if you want to add a couple of points on it you can just click on the line and drag...

                                 

                                LinearToneCurve.jpg

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                  PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                  Noel,

                                   

                                  Yes I understand how to save a curve to a camera default but as Rob has said the there is no more true linear option available as one of the defaults. What is now called Linear is the equivalent to a Medium Contrast curve. I like to start my processing from a flatter file.

                                   

                                  Chris

                                  • 14. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                    areohbee Community Member

                                    PIXIllate22 wrote:

                                     

                                    Rob,

                                     

                                    Thanks a lot. You`ve been really helpful.

                                    You bet .

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    PIXIllate22 wrote:

                                     

                                    Rob,

                                     

                                    Any good links?

                                    The DPE documentation on the web is actually pretty darn good:

                                     

                                    http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles:Editor

                                     

                                    FWIW/My.02: I think Adobe was just trying to streamline and simplify... 0 for the sliders, straight line for the tone curve. But they wanted to maintain the same "contrast enhanced" default starting point. All of which is fine with me, but I do think simply adding a "Legacy Linear" tone curve option would have avoided some grief - oh well.

                                     

                                    R

                                    • 15. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                      So make your own inverted S curve that makes your images look less contrasty, and just the way you want.  I don't see the problem.

                                       

                                      This is all "touchy feely" stuff.  The interface doesn't lend itself well to overthinking.  Think like this:  Fool with controls until you like what you see in the preview pane.

                                       

                                      Do this with a bunch of different images to evaluate your choices for defaults.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                        PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                        Rob - Thanks again. Good info.

                                         

                                        Noel - Well, actually the "touchy feely" stuff is more in line with what you are suggesting. Personally I like to start closer to the linear camera data and then go from there rather than some unknown amount of contrast baked in and then hidden under a curve that looks like a straight line. But to each their own.

                                        • 17. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          I think you have a misconception...  You cannot see "the linear camera data".  If you sent a debayered conversion with no tone curve nor gamma correction applied to your monitor it would look essentially black, with a few light spots where the highlights are.  I think it's more a psychological issue that you feel what you were seeing before was somehow a more basic starting point than it really was.  Adobe has now defined their default tone curve as a straight line, and we get to adjust it to taste.

                                           

                                          All the controls on the first page of the converter's Basic page seem to do various things to the tone curve as well, stretching it this way and that.

                                           

                                          "Touchy feely" works with this software.  There doesn't seem to be another method forthcoming.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                            PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                            I have no misconception. I understand the basics of the demosaicing process and I know that I am seeing gamma corrected information.

                                             

                                            My question (and title of my topic) was about one thing and one thing only, and I beleive Rob has answered it for me (unless you are saying his information is incorrect).

                                             

                                            What was once a linear point curve labled linear is now a medium contrast curve labeled and drawn to appear as a linear point curve.

                                            It is not a psycological issue. The fact is there is now a hidden curve built in to the point curve setting labled linear.

                                             

                                            I understand the controls on the Basic panel and how to use them properly. That does not negate my wanting to understand what is happening concurrent to that.

                                             

                                            I guess I'll call this one solved in my mind unless Jeff or someone who is in a position to know can enlighten me as to why Adobe made this choice.

                                             

                                            Thanks,

                                            Chris

                                            • 19. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                              Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                              PIXIllate22 wrote:

                                               

                                              What was once a linear point curve labled linear is now a medium contrast curve labeled and drawn to appear as a linear point curve.

                                              It is not a psycological issue. The fact is there is now a hidden curve built in to the point curve setting labled linear.

                                               

                                              No..it is more of a psycological issue...the linear tone curve in the previous PV 2010 was NOT a true linear curve. It was still a modified gamma curve even is the adjustment was mild. If you set the PV 2010 tone curve to linear and set brightness and contrast you would come closer to a linear rendering but it STILL had a non-linear gamma adjustment because it was normalized for viewing and adjustments. Some people fell in love with the flat low contrast starting point. Some people also only used point curves and no basic panel adjustments. That is not an optimal approach now with PV 2012 because it bypasses a lot of tone mapping that the new Basic panel can do.

                                               

                                              You can use DNG Profile Editor to modify a DNG profile for you camera and get back to a more linear (not perfectly linear, only more linear) if that's what you want but you can't do it with any command in LR4/ACR7 now without getting negative Exposure and Contrast settings and multiple pointson te curve to adjust the new default curve to be more linear (but still not exactly linear).

                                               

                                              As to why they converted the old medium contrast and set it now as a default linear curve, that was to have no baseline curve set in the ACR/LR default so that curves could be applied to raw, tiff and even 32-bit float images and use the same default starting point. The normalized medium contrast curve still lives in the DNG profile and that's where you have to change the curve from medium to linear in a custom DNG profile. Bottom line, greatest good was the motive...some people don't like the change but they are not gonna change back because the people who don't like it are a very small minority.

                                              • 20. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                                Jeff,

                                                 

                                                Thanks for the answer. At least I now understand what is happening "under the hood" and I can work around it.

                                                 

                                                The current Linear curve has WAY too much contrast for my taste. But as you say I'm probably in the minority.

                                                 

                                                Chris

                                                • 21. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                  Out of curiosity, what do you feel you lose by just dialing-in an inverse S curve and saving it as your Camera Raw default, so that it starts out with a conversion pleasing to you?

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                    PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                                    Noel,

                                                     

                                                    Well to start with I simply didn't understand that Linear in PV2012 was the same as Medium Contrast in PV2010. Nowhere in anything I had read explained that simple point (I'm not a Lightroom user so I missed all of the previous fuss over this subject). Aside from WHY it was done I was just not aware of it. Now that I am I can easily work around it by importing a "Custom" curve as the default that gets me close to back where I was in PV2010 as a starting place.

                                                     

                                                    The downside of this is you have a curve with a bunch of points on it so if you want to make any further changes it is harder to adjust as points interact with each other. I guess the workaround for THAT is to do what Rob and Jeff have suggested and use the Profile editor. Which I probably will do when I have the time to invest.

                                                     

                                                    I still don't see why Adobe didn't just leave the legacy 2010 linear curve in there as a selectable option for those who prefer it but there is no sense in discussing that any further if it isn't ever going to happen.

                                                     

                                                    I'm happy with the help I have received as I now understand what is happening. And at the end of the day that is the most powerful tool there is.

                                                     

                                                    Chris

                                                    • 23. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                      Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                                      I still don't see why Adobe didn't just leave the legacy 2010 linear

                                                      curve in there as a selectable option for those who prefer it but there is

                                                      no sense in discussing that any further if it isn't ever going to happen.

                                                       

                                                      Because, even if I was happy with the default medium contrast curve,

                                                      everytime I wanted to tweak it, I first had to clean it up of existing

                                                      points. That was annoying. Starting with default curve that is a straight

                                                      line seems much more natural.

                                                      • 24. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                        PIXIllate22 Community Member

                                                        Dorin,

                                                         

                                                        Thank you for making my point for me. So having an additional option that you never used called PV2010 Linear or Legacy Linear that is not selected by default would have what effect on your workflow?

                                                         

                                                        Chris

                                                        • 25. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                          Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                                                          Options that I don't use have no effect on my workflow.

                                                          • 27. Re: CS6 and Custom Point Curve vs. Linear
                                                            areohbee Community Member

                                                            Consider making a feature request ("Idea") on the feedback site, if there isn't one already (and if there is, vote for it / add comment...):

                                                             

                                                            http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new