23 Replies Latest reply: Sep 29, 2012 9:17 PM by J. Simon RSS

    CinemaDNG

    J. Simon Community Member

      Given the spate of forthcoming Digital Cinema cameras that use the CinemaDNG format*, I'm surprised at a lack of native support for this format.

       

      What gives Adobe?  Why is this still in the Labs and not native to CS6 (which supports every other major camera format except Adobe's own!)

       

       

      *http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/blackmagiccinemacamera/

       

      http://www.digitalbolex.com/products/bolex-d16/

       

      http://www.kineraw.com/kineraw_s16_2.html

        • 1. Re: CinemaDNG
          Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

          You know what I'm gonna say...http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

          • 2. Re: CinemaDNG
            J. Simon Community Member

            Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question.

             

            Why is Adobe's own camera format not supported in Adobe's NLE already?  Why is it still something we have to add?  That's a little bit like Windows Media Player not supporting WMV files without installing a plug-in.

             

            It's a bit odd, don't you think?

            • 3. Re: CinemaDNG
              Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

              We got very little interest from our users for CinemaDNG. The BlackMagic camera surprised us at NAB as much as it surprised anyone.

               

              If we find that a lot of people are using that camera and are asking us to natively import CinemaDNG files in Premiere Pro, then we'll look into it.

               

              For now, you can import CinemaDNG files into After Effects through the Camera Raw plug-in, which comes with After Effects. The performance is very poor, though, which is one of the reasons that we haven't been moving forward with CinemaDNG in Premiere Pro.

              • 4. Re: CinemaDNG
                nw42 Community Member

                this definatly will change, because band based workflows are declining and we need new ones to compensate that...

                 

                beside television with it's MXF OP1a & DNXHD interchange formats we need some new workflows for digital cinema...

                 

                RED & ARRI RAW support works fine and shows the potential - now we need to complete that with a open format like CinemaDNG

                 

                and of cource we urgendly need some new output formats:

                 

                1. Premiere 10Bit DPX workflow is great but DCI calls for 12Bit.

                2. Material interchange is done more and more by Digital Cinema Packages DCP's (instead of sending a HDCAM SR 4:4:4 tape) so we need import/export of DCI JPEG 2000 Codestream J2C filelists and MXF containers and also lookup table support for the XYZ color space of digital cinema...

                --> Thanks to Brendan for it great DCI complinat J2C Plugin for Premiere CS6

                http://www.fnordware.com/j2k/

                 

                Adobe was suprised by BM Cinema Camera - ok but I think it was a pleasant suprise - yes Cinema DNG becomes more and more important...

                • 5. Re: CinemaDNG
                  J. Simon Community Member
                  If we find that a lot of people are using that camera and are asking us to natively import CinemaDNG files in Premiere Pro, then we'll look into it.

                   

                  I get that's how it works for outside formats, but I still think it's a little odd that Adobe is developing a video format and that Adobe's own software doesn't natively support that format.  You'd think that Adobe would want that native software support as a way of pushing the format.

                   

                  I mean, how could Microsoft expect people to start creating and using WMV files over H.264 if Microsoft's own video player didn't natively play WMV files?  It's just off, Todd.

                   

                  Support for in-house formats is just something you do by default, irregardless of customer requests.

                  • 6. Re: CinemaDNG
                    Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

                    I think that you're over-estimating how much the format is "our" format. We did some early work on the format and then made it an open-source format for others to develop as they saw fit. We didn't push it and don't intend to do so, any more than we would for any other open standard. It has received very little uptake, with only a couple of recent exceptions.

                     

                    In the meantime, many competing formats have been taken up with great success, and we need to focus our limited resources on making sure that formats that are already very popular are supported as well as possible.

                    • 7. Re: CinemaDNG
                      J. Simon Community Member

                      It has received very little uptake, with only a couple of recent exceptions.

                       

                      By years end, there will be six DC cameras using the format - Blackmagic's entry, the Digital Bolex, three models from Chinese manufacturer Kinefinity, and the Ikonoscope A-cam dll.

                       

                      Whatever efforts Adobe has put into the original development of CinemaDNG, the perception within the community is that CinemaDNG is an Adobe product.  I submit the company would do well to support "it's own product" in it's editing software, and perhaps better ahead of the curve rather than waiting for requests.

                      • 8. Re: CinemaDNG
                        paulgolden Community Member

                        So has anyone figured out how to use Cinema DNG in a sensible workflow?  I'd be interested in figuring out how to create MXF files from DNG sequences (or Camera Raw sequences) that can be kept RAW through the edit process.  I shoot a lot of Time Lapse and Stop Motion, so this would be certainly useful.  Image sequences work OK, I suppose, but I'm wondering if we can get sequences to be more like movies.

                         

                        Besides Black Magic Cinema camera's Cinema DNG support, it appears that (no surprise) DaVinci Resolve 9.0 will also support Cinema DNG, so I'm curious if anyone has used Premiere or Final Cut (or Avid) to cut with Cinema DNG (or proxies) and made this workflow work? 

                        • 9. Re: CinemaDNG
                          caflook Community Member

                          I recently purchased a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and have begun researach on the best workflows using Premiere.  I assumed that since Adobe first pioneered Cinema DNG that it would be natively supported in their NLE - especially as Adobe really pushes the idea that it can handle multiple formats and codecs natively.  I could not believe that Cinema DNG was not supported and as of yesterday, was discontinued.  I'm have to switch to another non-linear editor if this isn't resolved.

                          • 10. Re: CinemaDNG
                            J. Simon Community Member

                            "Cinema DNG Initiative has been discontinued on September 26, 2012 and is no longer available"

                             

                            Well, that could mean one of two things.  The development is done and has come out of Adobe Labs to be officially included in Adobe software, or anyone who buys a camera that shoots CinemaDNG will simply not be able to edit their footage using Premiere Pro.

                             

                            I surely do hope it's the former.

                            • 11. Re: CinemaDNG
                              caflook Community Member

                              I agree, I hope it is the former.  I switched to Premiere and love(d) it precisely because it could handle a wide variety of formats and codecs.  Adobe also did an awesome job keeping up-to-date.  I just can't fathom why they wouldn't support this - I hope you are right, I'd hate to switch to another editing program...again!

                              • 12. Re: CinemaDNG
                                KGCW Community Member

                                I surely do hope it is the former too.

                                 

                                I don't think they'll ditch it as support for Cinema DNG has just been upgraded / fixed on Speedgrade 6.0.4

                                • 13. Re: CinemaDNG
                                  David_V_Clarke Community Member

                                  I don't yet have the cinema camera although I have one on order but I have tried a few samples.  They don't work in any program I have tried - included Vegas, EDIUS and Avid.  If you install the Adobe codec EDIUS will read them but none of the others seem to.  Even then I believe the Adobe codec does not really use the full range of the files the BM camera records.  Black Magic say the only way to really get the best from the format is use DaVinci - which is why it ships with the camera.  The workflow described to me is:

                                   

                                  1. Load the clips into DaVinci, do a basic grade and export as AVID DNX/pro res files for editing.

                                  2. After editing export an AAF back to DaVinci and re-conform with the original files and do a final grade.

                                   

                                  If you record in ProRes or DNXHD you don't need to use DaVinci but are not using the camera to its full potential.

                                   

                                  You can load individual frames into Photoshop or After Effects and get complete control over them but they will not load them as a complete video file - just one frame at a time (at least that is what I have found so far).

                                  • 14. Re: CinemaDNG
                                    caflook Community Member

                                    I really hope so.  I can edit my RED footage natively in Premiere.

                                    • 15. Re: CinemaDNG
                                      paulgolden Community Member

                                      You use the folder of frames as an image sequence and Adobe Camera Raw affects the whole sequence. This works in AE, PS, and Premiere. When you import the folder, designate it as a sequence and make sure to interpret with the right frame rate.

                                       

                                      Paul G

                                      • 16. Re: CinemaDNG
                                        J. Simon Community Member

                                        My suite of programs are currently running an update.  I wonder if support for CinemaDNG is part of that.

                                        • 17. Re: CinemaDNG
                                          Dave Merchant ACP/MVPs

                                          No chance - you're waaay too optimistic.

                                           

                                          The batch of  updates to CS6 which rolled yesterday are primarily to apply Windows 8 certification and to replace Adobe's revoked code-signing certificate, though there's the usual bunch of bugfixes and 2 new CUDA cards.

                                           

                                          For Pr see http://www.adobe.com/go/premierepro_602_readme_en (603 is a modified 602 for Windows - there's no readme for 603 despite the download page thinking there is)

                                          Jim Simon wrote:

                                           

                                          My suite of programs are currently running an update.  I wonder if support for CinemaDNG is part of that.

                                          • 18. Re: CinemaDNG
                                            Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

                                            That post on the Adobe Labs blog was very misleading. I wrote this to clear things up:

                                            http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2012/09/cinemadng-in-after-effects-cs6-and-elsewhere.ht ml

                                            • 19. Re: CinemaDNG
                                              J. Simon Community Member

                                              "If it’s important to you that we add native import of CinemaDNG footage into Premiere Pro, please let us know with a feature request"

                                               

                                              I still think this is something that should be done by default, without waiting for folks to ask.

                                              • 20. Re: CinemaDNG
                                                paulgolden Community Member

                                                I think Adobe's point regarding the use of RAW files with which to edit is illuminating. Computers, in general, are just not up to the task of working with RAW natively, at speed in a satisfying way.

                                                 

                                                I don't know any NLE that can EDIT with RAW, as it is not an output/mastering/display medium but is really only an acquisition medium. 

                                                 

                                                Most workflows seem to involve ingesting the footage in proxy form (either via Resolve) or FCP Log and Transfer, editing with lower bit rates for higher performance; exporting back to a grading solution, conforming the Raw footage and outputting a rendered hi-res set of corrected master files that can be finally conformed and output. 

                                                 

                                                The point of RAW is in color correction, so there's no need to try and cut with it.  After Effects can import RAW Cinema DNG image sequences if you want to composite with it, but ultimately, no NLE (or disk array) is really up to the task of doing a creative edit with multiple streams of RAW files. 

                                                 

                                                The Cinema DNGs produced by the BMCC come as image sequences with separate audio WAVs.  BMD's workflow would suggest you bring your RAW files into Resolve, apply LUTs, synch your footage to your WAVs, output proxy Quicktimes, edit in your NLE, come back to Resolve to grade your RAW files and re-export graded QTs to conform back in your NLE. 

                                                 

                                                No one expects you to EDIT with RAW files, nor does RED or any other RAW based workflow, for all I know.  This workflow would work equally well in Premiere.  If you don't want to use Resolve, you can use After Effects to render files for edit (you can synch them there to, if you're so inclined; but not the best tool for that).

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Paul G.

                                                • 21. Re: CinemaDNG
                                                  J. Simon Community Member

                                                  Computers, in general, are just not up to the task of working with RAW natively, at speed in a satisfying way.

                                                   

                                                  They work just fine with RED and Arri's RAW footage.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  BMD's workflow would suggest you bring your RAW files into Resolve, apply LUTs, synch your footage to your WAVs, output proxy Quicktimes, edit in your NLE, come back to Resolve to grade your RAW files and re-export graded QTs to conform back in your NLE. 

                                                   

                                                  That is a PITA workflow only necessary until Adobe steps up their native handling of CinemaDNG to match that of RED and Arri.

                                                  • 22. Re: CinemaDNG
                                                    Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

                                                    > They work just fine with RED and Arri's RAW footage.

                                                     

                                                    ... and that has taken a tremendous amount of engineering effort.

                                                     

                                                    The reason that we did that work is because there are a lot of cameras using those formats, and a lot of people using those cameras and formats for real work. How many people are using CinemaDNG so far for real work, and how many of these cameras are in people's hands? Far fewer. That may change, and when it does, the people with those cameras will let us know that they need Premiere Pro to natively import these files.

                                                     

                                                    Getting real-time performance with a raw format is not automatic or easy. If we do the engineering work to make this happen, it will displace other features and fixes, since we have finite engineering resources.

                                                     

                                                    The feature-request process tells us how to prioritize the work that these limited engineering resources are applied to.

                                                    • 23. Re: CinemaDNG
                                                      J. Simon Community Member

                                                      How many people are using CinemaDNG so far for real work

                                                       

                                                      If you build it, they will come.