15 Replies Latest reply: Jul 14, 2012 9:19 PM by MikeKPhoto RSS

    Clipping indicator wont turn off

    dcbulge Community Member

      Okay, so I recently updated to ACR 6.7.

       

      Since then everytime I open an image there are clipping indicators that won't turn off.

       

      I know about the usual highlight and shadow indicators (pressing "o" and "u" respectively) and when i turn these on the other stuff disappears but if I turn these off then I get what I can only describe as less dramatic clipping indicators i.e. they are not just red but varying shades of purple and green.

       

      Any ideas what these are? Will try post some screenshots if needed.

        • 1. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
          R_Kelly Community Member

          Screenshots would be good.

          • 2. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
            dcbulge Community Member

            Here is first example:

             

            1. This is some artwork I created in illustrator and then opened in adobe camera raw first shot is at 50% magnification and some purple artifacts visible next shot is at 100% magnification and the artifacts disappear...

            50%.jpg

            100%.jpg

            • 3. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
              dcbulge Community Member

              Here is another:

               

              2. Next is a photo opened in adobe camera raw. The first shows the artifacts clearly visible, the second is with the recovery value turned up to 50 and this clearly reduces the artifacts... Just to reiterate when opening the image in photoshop none of this is visible.

               

              200%.jpg

              http://www.aoshuk.org.uk/contdissememails/ukidealorgemails/images/recovery-at-50.jpg

              • 4. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                Noel Carboni Community Member

                It might have been better to capture the entire Camera Raw dialog, which would have shown the histograms as well.

                 

                You know you can turn those in-image indications off, right?  Not sure whether you knew that.  Just hold the Shift key and click the little clipping indicators in the histogram area.

                 

                Regarding your first issue, with the zoomed-out display, it's pretty much a given all through Photoshop that effects and indicators are most accurate at 100% zoom.

                 

                On the second issue, of the out-of-gamut red pixels...

                 

                Depending on the color space you're converting into and the camera profile you're using, you can get channel clipping even with a good bit of recovery dialed-in.  It will likely go away if you turn down your color Saturation control a little.  This is because Camera Raw clips channels for colors that are going out-of-gamut per the target color space.  Try different camera profiles and you may find one that does a better job of keeping reds under control.

                 

                Another approach is that you could choose to convert to ProPhoto RGB, which has a wider gamut.  A lot of folks work in this space.

                 

                It is not a given that such clipping must occur when using a limited-gamut color space such as sRGB, by the way.  I have a camera profile crafted by a bright member of this forum that bends the colors at the edges, just as Canon does, so that all the colors my Canon camera captures fit in the sRGB color space.

                 

                -Noel

                • 5. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                  dcbulge Community Member

                  Thanks a lot.

                   

                  Info on color space is interesting and I'd like to try different settings, don't know where you change this. Under Camera Calibration I have a drop down menu for camera profile but there's no ProPhoto RGB option or even no sRGB option... not sure if i'm looking in the wrong place.

                   

                  My main point though is that I can't turn the clipping indications off... I have tried clicking the little arrows in the top corners of the histogram panel, have tried holding shift and clicking them, have tried pressing "u" and "o". That just turns the normal blue or red clipping indicators on or off. When the usual blue and red indicators are on, then this purple stuff goes away, but I can't find how to just turn this purple stuff off.

                   

                  Here's full screenshot:

                   

                  http://www.aoshuk.org.uk/contdissememails/ukidealorgemails/images/clipping.jpg

                   

                  Cheers - Damian

                  • 6. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                    That does sound like a bug.

                     

                    The output color space is accessible via that little link at the bottom-center of the Camera Raw dialog, just below the image preview display.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                      Damian, can you please post your system info?  Also, can you send me the original image along with your image settings (e.g., XMP sidecar).  You can use madmanchan2000@yahoo.com (YouSendIt.com, dropbox, etc.).  Thanks.

                      • 8. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                        MikeKPhoto Community Member

                        This is very similar to the problem I reported some time ago with the clipping indicator showing at certain odd magnification levels withing ACR. At first I thought it was just with files from my D800, but have now seen this with RAW files from my D3 and D700. While I have never has an issue with highlights only the shadow clipping indicator and only where there is a close transition between a dark area and a light area.

                         

                        Also have found I can make this go away by resizing the ACR window, and the problem seems isolated to the default window size when ACR opens. For example open a Nikon D800 image in ACR, the default magnification is 15.3% and you can see the problem clipping indicator shows at the transition on the right side of the box between the light edge of the box and the shadow area. In the first screen shot you can just about make out the problem - but click on it to magnify and you can see it

                         

                        Clipping1.JPG

                        Now increase the magification level to 25% and the clipping indicator goes away. See below

                         

                        Clipping2.JPG

                         

                        Eric, any update on this issue? And confirming, well at least in my case the issue only presents itself at default magnifications that are not whole numbers

                         

                        Cheers

                         

                        MK

                        • 9. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                          MK and others,

                           

                          I did identify a minor problem in the zoom logic that could affect the clip indicator to some degree; this will be fixed in the next dot release.

                           

                          But in general, you will see slightly different clip indicators at different zoom levels, because this is a fundamental issue with viewing images at different sizes.  Due to the interpolation/resampling needed to produce different image sizes, there is not a meaningful way to interpret clipped pixels consistently across different image scales.  If you want accuracy, I suggest examining for clipping at 100% pixel view.

                          • 10. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                            MikeKPhoto Community Member

                            Thanks for the feedback and look forward to the update; but have a question. Given this problem occurs at non whole integer zoom levels, which seem to be the default opening zoom values, and force them to be whole integers. For example, with a D800 image at my screen size ACR opens at 15.3% and shows the problem, but not there at 15%. So maybe another way to fix the problem?

                             

                            Cheers

                             

                            MK

                            • 11. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                              station_two Community Member

                              MK,

                               

                              It's no surprise you see more artifacts at 15.3% than at 15%, but be assured that only at 100% view will you ever see a true representation of your image.  At any view other than 100%, pixels have to be discarded or made up.  You can only trust a 100% view.

                              • 12. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                                MikeKPhoto Community Member

                                Well I am not sure I can trust a 100% preview either; as something very squirrely is going on with the display of the clipping indicators. Yesterday I shot a news event, and one of the images, exposure was spot on for the main subject; the only change that needed to be made in ACR was to dumb down the highlights in the top right hand corner of the image. At 100% preview the highlight clipping indicator shows the blown highlight, moving the highlight control to the left to dumb down the blown highlight, guess what the clippinging indicator grew into areas not previously shown as clipped. This with every control set at zero.

                                 

                                So my confidence in the accuracy of the clipping indicators, even at 100% preview, is very low. Eric, let me know if you would like a copy of this file.....

                                 

                                Here is the file as opened in ACR

                                 

                                Clipping1.JPG

                                 

                                And here is the same image changing only the highlight control (both images displayed at 100% preview)

                                 

                                Clipping 2.JPG

                                 

                                So something is not right even at 100% preview

                                 

                                MK

                                • 13. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                  That's very interesting, Mike.

                                   

                                  I have an image on hand with similar issues, so out of curiosity I tried to reproduce what you're seeing and could not.  Dragging the Highlights slider down for me just resulted in the clipping indications getting smaller.

                                   

                                  However, what's strange is this:  It's clear that the very brightest places - direct sun reflections - are losing their clipping indications before other parts. 

                                   

                                  Weird stuff going on with the Highlight Clipping warning for sure.  Do you see the same thing if you change conversion output space color profile to one of the others (e.g., sRGB)?

                                   

                                  ZeroHighlightsZeroWhites.jpg

                                   

                                  MinusHighlightsZeroWhites.jpg

                                   

                                  MinusHighlightsMinusWhites.jpg

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                                    MikeKPhoto Community Member

                                    With this particular image it happens on all the color space options, my default is ProPhotoRGB, but changing to Adobe RGB, ColorMatch or sRGB the issue is still there.

                                     

                                    Maybe Eric can chime in? 

                                     

                                    My monitor is pretty well calibrated and what I see on screen comes out of my printers, so I am giving up on the clipping indicators and relying on my good eye, the other is not so good and has this rose colored tint

                                     

                                    Cheers

                                     

                                    Mike

                                     

                                    Edit: Noel, this effect does not occur with every image, in fact two frames later of the same scene and the highlight clipping indicator works, ie dragging the highlight slider to the left and the highlight is tamed and the clipping indicator correctly displays this. Now, I thought this might be camera related, but getting these wierd clipping indicator bugaboos with RAW files from my D3, D700 and D800. The D3 and D700 share the same sensor technology, but the D800 is a completely new sensor - but has more dynamic range and a more accurate output. Getting off track here but might help Eric track this one down. The RAW output from the D800 is pretty damn good. For certain jobs I create a custom camera profile using passport checker. The difference when applying to the D3 and D700 is really noticeable, but with the D800 the change is minimal and you really have to look hard to see what did change, mostly in the blues of the image - but very subtle. Now for the image in question, no special camera profile just the Adobe standard. Hmm, maybe I should see if this is camera profile related?

                                    • 15. Re: Clipping indicator wont turn off
                                      MikeKPhoto Community Member

                                      Had the opportunity to delve into the highlight clipping issue, and found another interesting anomoly. With ACR set to 100% to eliminate any display issues you can see in the first image the highlight clipping indicator with all the controls set to zero; which is what I would expect to see, and the highlights while hot, not too hot and moving the highlight control to the left as seen in the second image, the highligh clipping indicator is off with the highlight control set at -45 again with all the other controls set to zero

                                       

                                      Highlight 1.JPG

                                      The second image shows no highlight clipping...

                                       

                                      Highlight2.JPG

                                      Now still reducing the highlight contol to -85 with all the other controls set to zero; and guess what? The highlight clipping indicator turned back on, not expected behavior.

                                       

                                      Highlight3.JPG

                                      So while we have an anomoly with the indicator, do we also have a problem with the highlight control itself?

                                       

                                      I checked with the color picker and the highlight values with the control set at -45 showed R=254 G=254 B=254 not quite pure white, but still a blown highlight, but with the control set at -85 the RGB values increased to R=255 G=255 and B=255 which is pure white. At -45 there were some values lower than 254 but those increased to pure white wheras I would have thought they would have reduced in value as you further move the highlight control to the left

                                       

                                      Not sure if this will help Eric and team, but a few more datapoints.....

                                       

                                      Mike