33 Replies Latest reply: Jul 27, 2012 9:37 AM by Peter Spier RSS

    Formatting a budget with tabs

    Michael_OSP Community Member

      I am pretty good at using tabs but I am trying to set a budget and it has specialized needs and I can't figure out how to do it. Below is a shot of what it has to look like (taken from an old book set with XyVision):

       

      fbudsum_r12_SAMPLE.jpg

      The important thing I want it to do is have the text and leaders end on the right (where "Program." ends) and the figures to the right aligned. Those numbers almost act like they set past the right margin and there has to be a way in Design to duplicate this.

       

      Thanks everyone!

        • 1. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
          RodneyA Community Member

          You want to set a decimal tab (or right-aligning tab) at the right margin, using a dot leader. Set a left indent, a first-line indent (the same number but negative), and tab stop at the left, to get the hanging indent with the parenthetical numbers. Set a large indent at the right, long enough to accomodate your longest number, so that long description texts will wrap before they get to the number area. When typing, put a tab after the parenthetical number, and another before the budget number. Any more than two tabs in a line can cause buggy behavior. In the example, the right margin isn't constant, but is larger for very large numbers, so if you've got a siutation like that, create several paragraph styles with varying right margins.

           

          If the gap between the dot leader and the number is important, you could try putting in em-spaces after the tab but before the number -- I can't remember if the dot tab leaders honor spaces before numbers in this kind of situation. Try it out. If nothing else works, a couple of Xs filled with the "paper" color would be an awkward kludge.

           

          Note that in fairly recent versions of Indesign these tabs outside the right margin didn't work properly. It was a pain. But versions 5 and 6 do support this, IIRC.

          • 2. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
            Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

            You may need to add a negative last line indent to get the number to move beyond the text.

            • 3. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
              rob day MVP

              I did this without tabs—just one Right Indent Tab (Shift-Tab) with a dotted underline applied to create the leader:

               

              Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 10.45.30 AM.png

              Here it is with invisibles showing. I used an en-space to get extra space around the leader and a negative first line indent with a soft return (Shift-Return) for the overflow line:

               

              Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 10.47.25 AM.png

              • 4. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                You cheated, though, to get the line break. You added a forced line break after blaboratus.

                 

                Setting a right indent value in the paragraph style and a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically.

                • 5. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                  RodneyA Community Member

                  Looks like you've got it, though Peter's solution is much more elegant than forced line breaks. The advantage to using tabs for those left numbers is that once you get to number 10, they'll still align on the wrap. Then I usually do yet one more decimal tab at the beginning of each line, because I like list numbers 9 and 10 to align at the right, which is not only typographically correct, but keeps a consistent space between the list numbers and their text.

                  • 6. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                    rob day MVP

                    a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically

                     

                    Very cool. It  never occurred to me that you can offset from the right as well as the left.

                     

                    The advantage to using tabs for those left numbers is that once you get to number 10, they'll still align on the wrap.

                     

                    An Indent to Here mark would align the text, this is still tabless

                     

                    Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 1.14.28 PM.png

                    • 7. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                      Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                      Rob Day wrote:

                       

                      a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically

                       

                      Very cool. It  never occurred to me that you can offset from the right as well as the left.

                      As far as I can tell, that's about all the last line indent is good for.

                      • 8. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                        rob day MVP

                        because I like list numbers 9 and 10 to align at the right,

                        Andrew I read too fast I think you mean this, which is better:

                         

                        Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 2.19.50 PM.png

                        • 9. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                          Michael_OSP Community Member

                          Thanks to everybody but I think I must not have been describing what I am trying to get (maybe my brain isn't working at 4:25 am).  What I want is the text including wrapping text and leaders under schedule to all end a specific spot (the red line in the screen shot included below) and the budget dollar amounts to be at the right margin. By the way, I agree that the parenthetical numbers should align on the right as Rob shows in his screen shot.

                           

                          fbudsum_sample.jpg

                          • 10. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                            Michael Gianino Community Member

                            Although I'm not a big fan of double tab stops, you could have a right-aligned stop at the red line with a leader, then another one at the right edge of the text frame without. There could be a case to make that a table without stroked cells would be an option.

                            • 11. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                              rob day MVP

                              In my example I added another tab before the Right Indent Tab:

                              Screen shot 2012-07-25 at 7.45.30 AM.png

                              Note that the text has to be justified and if you were to change the column width the tab for the leader would have to be adjusted. The text also has a lot of white space characters to track—tab>number>tab>indent to here>text>en space>tab>right indent tab>number—so if your not used to that a table might be easier to control.

                              • 12. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                Michael_OSP wrote:

                                What I want is the text including wrapping text and leaders under schedule to all end a specific spot (the red line in the screen shot included below) and the budget dollar amounts to be at the right margin.

                                fbudsum_sample.jpg

                                As suggested before, set a right indent on the paraph style (at the position of the red line) and a negative last line indent equal to the right indent. To make the leader stop there as well, also set a right aligned tab with leader at the red line (to which the leader is applied) and another tab, without a leader, anywhere after that (to turn the leader off again, bu tthis tab will never be used). Insert both a regular tab (the right aligned one with the leader) and a right indent tab just before the number:

                                Hanging numbers.png

                                 

                                You can eliminate the second tab that's used to turn off the leader if you don't use a leader at all, but instead create a custom underline to use as the leader, which I think is more elegant, and apply it as a nested character style in the paragraph style definition. Your nested styles would then be [none] up to 1 tab, [custom underline style] through 1 tab.

                                • 13. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                  Michael_OSP Community Member

                                  Rob and Peter, thanks for your help. i have followed your directions and have looked at the screen shots but I am doing something wrong. The dollar amount is going to the next line. Here is a shot of my text and the tab ruler. budget_format_sample.jpg

                                  • 14. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                    rob day MVP

                                    Try setting your right tab for the leader at the right indent mark:

                                     

                                    Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 6.19.40 AM.png

                                    • 15. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                      Michael_OSP Community Member

                                      OK, I thought I had one there already. I put it in and it does not look like yours. If I take the tab outside the right indent then the right tab indent character vanishes. I see it in the story editor though. ARGH.budget_format_sample 2.jpg

                                      • 16. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                        rob day MVP

                                        Now you've got 4 tab marks. Keep the one lined up with your right indent and delete the extra one to the right.

                                         

                                         

                                        Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 7.26.32 AM.png

                                        • 17. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                          Michael_OSP Community Member

                                          Rob, I do and nothing changes but I don't see the right indent character (visible in story editor though). Sure seems like it should work.....

                                           

                                          budget_format_sample 3.jpg

                                           

                                          budget_format_sample 4.jpg

                                          • 18. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                            rob day MVP

                                            Now you don't have the Right Indent Tab (Shift-Tab) after the leader tab and before the number. The Right Indent Tab isn't actually a tab—it isn't controlled by the Tab panel.

                                             

                                            Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 8.01.16 AM.png

                                            • 19. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                              Looks to me like maybe you forgot to add the last line negative indent to allow the number to hang.

                                              • 21. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                Michael_OSP Community Member

                                                Rob, thanks for the file. I look at it and your tab at the right indent does not have a leader dot so how are you getting that? I looked in nested styles but it is not doing it that way.

                                                • 22. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                  Michael_OSP Community Member

                                                  Rob, can you look at this? I have spent all afternoon here at home looking at your file but still can't recreate it. When I try to put a tab stop at the right indent to stop the leaders it doesn't. I have there it doesn't do anything. I appreciate all your help by the way!

                                                  Screen Shot 2012-07-26 at 4.45.56 PM.png

                                                  • 23. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                    rob day MVP

                                                    My third tab has an underline applied, I got the dots via underline options and it could be saved as a character style.

                                                     

                                                    Don't drop the third tab marker exactly on the right indent marker—if you do it doesn't get applied. In your last capture you only have 2 tab markers. In my file you can see the third tab marker slightly to the right of the right indent marker.

                                                    • 24. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                      Michael_OSP Community Member

                                                      I got it! Thank you. Why does the period extend to the dollar amount and not stop at the third tab if I apply it to the third tab?

                                                      • 25. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                        rob day MVP

                                                        Not sure, I think you have to use the underline and not the leader.

                                                         

                                                        Screen shot 2012-07-27 at 7.19.28 AM.png

                                                        • 26. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                          I've sort of left the two of you alone to deal with this, but if I'm understanding the last question (and I didn't download Rob's file so I'm shooting in the dark), if you use a right-indent tab rahter than a right aligned tab (and I think you should), the right Indent tab picks up the leader from the last tab set in the paragraph style. You can't, in fact, actually apply a leader directly to a right-indent tab because it never appears in the tabs panel to select. An old trick to make a leader was to set a tab beyond the right edge of the text frame in the paragraph style and apply the leader to that (I learned that from Dave Saunders).

                                                          • 27. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                            rob day MVP

                                                            An old trick to make a leader was to set a tab beyond the right edge of the text frame in the paragraph style and apply the leader to that (I learned that from Dave Saunders).

                                                             

                                                            Doesn't seem to work in this case

                                                            • 28. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                              Applies the leader to a right indent tab, in case I wasn't clear. If that isn't happening, I'd have to see the file...

                                                              • 29. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                                rob day MVP

                                                                In my example it also drops the number down a line

                                                                 

                                                                Screen shot 2012-07-27 at 10.19.04 AM.png

                                                                • 30. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                                  Does that far right tab have a leader added?

                                                                   

                                                                  And I have no clue why #1 is on two lines, but #2 & #3 are not.

                                                                   

                                                                  In this example the first tab. at the right indent, has no leader, and the selected tab outside the text frame width has a hyphen/space leader applied:

                                                                   

                                                                  Hanging numbers w_leader.png

                                                                  • 31. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                                    rob day MVP

                                                                    2, 3... are using the underline method, and the right tab does have the leader

                                                                    • 32. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                                      rob day MVP

                                                                      Try it with one line of text. Also my text is justified.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Formatting a budget with tabs
                                                                        Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                                        Rob, if you look, you'll see the first and fourth paragraphs in my sample above are only one line. I've just checked again and it works just the same here whther the te text is justified or left aligned. I've tested in CS3 (which happened to be open) and in CS5.5 just to see if something has changed.