1 2 Previous Next 54 Replies Latest reply: Aug 7, 2012 5:13 AM by conroy RSS

    Noel Carboni

    JJMack MVP

      You seem to be seeing things a little bit more like me about CS6 Quality.

       

      I will try to add white space to make the a little easier to read,

       

      There seems to be what I call a Window of opportunity bug in the PC version of Photoshop CS6.   I believe the bug is in how Photoshop tasking or treading has been implemented.  If some commands start to execute when this window open the command fails.  

       

      The command Close No Save seems to open the window.  Setting Photoshop Preference Interface to Open Documents in Tabs slows down Photoshop to where the window is almost closed but not all the way.

       

      You know Murphy Law if it can happen it will happen. 

       

      You know I hate to edit in Tabs.  In my pursuit to close the window of opportunity and edit in floating windows  I have tried to set events to automate the process.  In doing so I triggered the bug even when the preference is set to open documents in tabs.

       

      I even tried to slow down the action by adding a new first step Edit Preferences Interface and Check "Open Documents In Tabs" the action still failed. 

       

      I added a Script into the action after the set preference step to slowed Photoshop down and the action worked.  The script was a one liner "refresh();". 

       

      Once I had the action working I converted it to a script adding logic not to try to float documents whet there are no open documents.

       

      The action that failed is very simple and easily demonstrates the problem. Edit your Photoshop Preferences Interface tab and un-check Open Documents in Tabs. Open a new document  to start recording a new action on, name it float all. Record

      Step One Edit>Preferences>Interface  in the dialog check Open Documents in Tabs and click OK

      Stop recording the Action use the actions Palette Fly-out menu  to insert two menu items:

      Menu Window>Arrange>Float All In Windows

      Menu Window>Arrange>Cascade

      The action is complete

       

      Next use menu File>Scripts>Script Event Manager... In the event manager dialog:

      Check Enable Events to Run Scripts/Actions:

      Use the Photoshop Event: pull-down and select everything

      Turn on the Action Radio button and use the pull down menus to select action set and action Float all

      Click the Add button then the done button.

      FloatAllEvent.jpg

      Now to show the bug.

      open  two new documents the default Photoshop size.

      The documents will be in cascaded floating windows.

      Use the X to close one of the document.

      Note the action fails.  Click continue.  Click the Play button the action works.

       

      The Script I'm playing with

       

      #target photoshop

      //

      // FloatAll.jsx

      //

      cTID = function(s) { return app.charIDToTypeID(s); };

      sTID = function(s) { return app.stringIDToTypeID(s); };

      function FloatAll() {

                OpenDocInTabs();                                        // Set photoshop preference interface "Open Documents in Tabs"

                refresh();                                                  // Slow down Photoshop

                if (documents.length > 0) {                    // There are open documents

                          FloatAllInWindows();                    // Float All Documents in Floating Windows

                          ArrangeWindowsCascade();          // Cascage Windows

                }

      };

       

      function OpenDocInTabs(enabled, withDialog) {

                if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

                var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

                var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

                var ref1 = new ActionReference();

                ref1.putProperty(cTID('Prpr'), sTID("interfacePrefs"));

                ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('capp'), cTID('Ordn'), cTID('Trgt'));

                desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

                var desc2 = new ActionDescriptor();

                desc2.putBoolean(cTID('EGst'), true);

                desc2.putBoolean(sTID("openNewDocsAsTabs"), true);

                desc1.putObject(cTID('T   '), sTID("interfacePrefs"), desc2);

                executeAction(cTID('setd'), desc1, dialogMode);

      };

       

      function FloatAllInWindows(enabled, withDialog) {

                if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

                var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

                var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

                var ref1 = new ActionReference();

                ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('Mn  '), cTID('MnIt'), sTID("floatAllWindows"));

                desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

                executeAction(cTID('slct'), desc1, dialogMode);

      };

       

      function ArrangeWindowsCascade(enabled, withDialog) {

                if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

                var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

                var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

                var ref1 = new ActionReference();

                ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('Mn  '), cTID('MnIt'), cTID('Cscd'));

                desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

                executeAction(cTID('slct'), desc1, dialogMode);

      };

       

      FloatAll();

        • 1. Re: Noel Carboni
          Noel Carboni Community Member

          I'll give the details of this more serious attention in the morning.

           

          I appreciate and respect your preference to use windowed rather than tabbed mode, but that may well be an important difference between the folks who feel it's not too buggy and those like yourself who feel it's unacceptable.

           

          Anecdotally, back a while ago,in the time of Photoshop CS4, I was a dyed-in-the-wool windowed mode user, I wouldn't consider using the then new tabbed view.  But a plug-in I used a lot in actions - Genuine Fractals - stopped working when run in windowed view, and I made a 2 week solid effort to use tabbed view.  Amazingly it grew on me, and I didn't go back.

           

          I'm thinking that more folks at Adobe like to use the tabbed view than windowed.

           

          -Noel

          • 2. Re: Noel Carboni
            JJMack MVP

            Noel 

             

            I'm dyslectic and tabbed mode has not grown on me.  I'm also 71 and don't take kindly to changes made for change sake. And don't like bug and omission made that break thing that have work for many releases of Photoshop without problems.  Thing started going bad at Adobe during the development of CS4 which I skipped for two reasons. Adobe added support for some GPU so there were bound to be bugs and Adobe did not add much value in CS4 ACR so I found no need to upgrade to  CS4.

             

            I upgraded to CS5 for two reasons Users had started reporting bugs in some of my free packages and ACR had some nice improvements.  With CS5 I found the many of the thing I have made available were now broken.

             

            Adobe had made improvements in scripting in the way Plug-ins scripts were coded.  I had to update the plug-ins I had written to comply with Adobe changes the one they used in CS3 no longer worked and the changes made worked in both CS3 and CS5. 

             

            Adobe also removed a GUI that I had used in many of my free actions, Those Actions had to be updated to use an other GUI.

             

            Adobe introduced a bug in the action player in CS4 that can cause many old actions to fail.  I reported the bug Adobe has yet to fix it.

             

            Adobe also changes the behavior of Photoshop.  In version of Photoshop prior to CS5 Layer Mask added to Smart Object layers could not be linked to the smart object. With CS5 not only could they be linked they are linked by default.  This behavior change cause several of my script to not to work the way they were designed to work they required an update to unlink the layer mask from the smart object when run on CS5 and above. 

             

            CS6 release makes CS5 release look good.   Automation has been hit hard. Adobe failed to add code to support Bicubic Automatic is scripting support when encountered it results in an internal Photoshop error.  Additional bugs have been introduced into Photoshop Action feature in both player and recorder.  Text support has been updated and bugs introduced.  Adobe acknowledges some performance problems.  The list is longer.

             

            I'm thinking that more folks at Adobe should be testing Photoshop in both tabbed and windowed mode.

            • 3. Re: Noel Carboni
              Community Member

              JJMack wrote:

               

              …I'm thinking that more folks at Adobe should be testing Photoshop in both tabbed and windowed mode.

               

              By all means!  For different reasons than those you have so articulately enumerated, I also want nothing to do with tabbed documents.

               

              Maybe because I'm in the same age bracket as you? 

              • 4. Re: Noel Carboni
                Noel Carboni Community Member

                I've looked a bit more at this...

                 

                I can easily reproduce the problem with my commercial actions, which all create a duplicate document on which to do their work, then close that document and expect immediately to be able to paste a result onto the original image.  The document is created, the actions all work fine, but upon closure of the duplicate, the paste pretty consistently fails upon return to the original.  As with your situation everything works great when in Tabbed view.

                 

                A graphic illustration:

                 

                Running the action on the owl image, we see (most of) the duplicate document window.

                 

                WhileRunning.jpg

                 

                The action runs through its steps, the duplicate document window closes (because of the stored Close, saving:no step) , and apparently the original document is made current again, but the Paste operation in the very next step fails.  Clearly something's not ready with the newly current (original) document yet.

                 

                PasteFailure.jpg

                 

                Notably a number of things in the panels not completely filled in (no History steps, partial display in the Layers panel, no Histogram display).  These could be clues as to what's not ready at the time of the execution of that step.

                 

                Has Adobe acknowledged this bug recently?  I vaguely recall some conversation about it in the Beta version.

                 

                I don't mean to make light of the severity of this problem, but I would like to point out that I have tens of thousands of actions users and I've not gotten one report of this problem yet.  That says that the lion's share of people must be using Tabbed view on PCs (or are using Macs).

                 

                -Noel

                • 5. Re: Noel Carboni
                  JJMack MVP

                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                   

                  As with your situation everything works great when in Tabbed view.

                  However that is not the case.  While Tabbed view make the race tighter I was still able to loose the race using tabbed view when I enable a script event.  Even with "Open Document in Tabs" enabled the event action failed when I closed a document without a save.  The problem is deeper then Tabbed view.

                  • 6. Re: Noel Carboni
                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                    I can believe that.  The timing is just different, but someting is un-coordinated that used to be coordinated.  It may also have something to do with the specific hardware that's running the application.

                     

                    In any case, do we have reason to hope that this will be addressed in 13.0.1?

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Noel Carboni
                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                      By the way, Photoshop is object-oriented internally.

                       

                      This kind of stuff is one of the many reasons I dislike object-oriented implementations.  Sure there are advantages, but unless the design is tight even things like compling software with a different compiler can break object-oriented code.  And people, by their human natures, just don't make tight designs by default.  Not even the superheroes at Adobe. 

                       

                      -Noel

                      • 8. Re: Noel Carboni
                        JJMack MVP

                        I think it is a implemetation problem.  Though "Open Documentents in Tabs" was enabled I still had to float at least one document to trigger the problem.. 

                         

                        If you float one document and open more documents you have tabs in two windows Photoshop Main window and the floading window you created by floading a document.  

                         

                        The problem seen to happen when a close closes a floating window tabbed or not the switch over to an other window  happens to slowly.  There is no plobem  closing Photoshop main window tabbed group the  switches to the next floating widow tabbed  or not  hapen fast and the problem is not triggered.

                         

                        I created a simple one step action which has a single menu item inserted menu View>Fit on Screen.  I removed all Script events in the script event managed and added a single Close event which executes this fit on screen action.

                         

                        I then added three new document in Photoshop. I floated the third document and added two more new documents. I floated the last document added and added one more new documents.  I now had three windows with tabs.   I started to closeing tabs.  I was able to close all tabs in Photoshop Main window without problem.  However if I close all tabs in any other window the last close encounted the problem switching to an other window group be it the main Photoshop Group, a floating group or just a floating document.

                        • 9. Re: Noel Carboni
                          Hudechrome Community Member

                          I am looking at this with a modicum of interest because I don't use Tabs and rarely use Actions and don't create any. That's not to say that I have no wants for Actions, but I really don't have a pressing need to get off my duff and create any.

                           

                          That being said, I am curious about this statement:

                           

                            Even with "Open Document in Tabs" enabled the event action failed when I closed a document without a save.

                           

                          I am perplexed as to why you would expect an Action, or any other move made on a file to succeed even though it's closed without saving. Every single time I've done that, I lost my work. And it behaves the same way using the canned Actions: apply, close w/o saving, lose the Action on the image.

                           

                          Just saying.....

                          • 10. Re: Noel Carboni
                            JJMack MVP

                            When there are more then one document open in Photoshop's open Document ring when the active document is closed photoshop makes the previous document in the document ring the active document. Action will close documents they open to use for some reason then proform steps on the previeous document like pasting in a layer it copied into the clipboard before closing a document it opened.  The problem happens when the switch back to the previeous document doesn't happen in time  paste will not be available for photoshop is in the process of setting up the active document at the moment that the paste step start to execute there is no current document which causes the paste step to fail.

                             

                            Photoshop ships with action and scripts that Adobe has created to automate things for the user. If CS6 is not run in Tabbed mode some of the automated tools Adobe ships will fail.  Users may not even know they are running a Photoshop Script.  For Scripts can be used from menu File>Automate>name... and from menu File>Script>Name...  They simply think they are using Name.... Scripts like: Load Files Into Stack; Export Layers to Files; Image Processor will fail in CS6 others may as well.  I do not use Photomerge, or Layer compts to xxx. Actions like Action set Textures action Bricks will also fail. I don't use actions that Adobe ships with Photoshop so I can not list all the will fail.

                            • 11. Re: Noel Carboni
                              Noel Carboni Community Member

                              Think of the execution of an action or script as automating the things you yourself might do as a sequence of mouse clicks, keyboard input, etc.

                               

                              For example, my commercial actions, seen as shown above to fail in Photoshop CS6 with windowed view, all do something like this:

                               

                              1.  Make a duplicate document.

                              2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

                              3.  Copy the result.

                              4.  Close the duplicate document without saving (this assumes the original document will again become current).

                              5.  Paste the result onto the original document.

                               

                              What does this seeming extra complexity accomplish?  Well, for one thing it does not jam up the user's History with a huge number of steps they didn't do themselves.

                               

                              And, for whatever reason, step 5 seems to succeed only when Tabbed view is being used exclusively.  Perhaps this is because certain things just happen more quickly. 

                               

                              Maybe not a lot of people run into this combination (windowed view, running actions), but it is a serious problem Adobe really does need to address.

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 12. Re: Noel Carboni
                                Hudechrome Community Member

                                Is Photomerge a scripted Action, so far as the app is concerned? I use it frequently, in fact, most of my personal photoshoots have multiple instances of Photomerge expectations. Now I am not doing the routine which involves making a copy of each frame running the merge then trying to apply the result to the originals. But if it is scripted, then would I unknowingly run into problems wioth my current workspace being run with Open Documents as tabs is unchecked as well as enable Floating Doc.....

                                 

                                If so, what might I expect different if I checked both those choices when running Photomerge, if any? Also, I always run it from Bridge.

                                • 13. Re: Noel Carboni
                                  conroy Community Member

                                  Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

                                   

                                  1.  Make a duplicate document.

                                  2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

                                  3.  Copy the result.

                                   

                                  4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

                                  5.  Paste.

                                  6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

                                  7.  Close without saving.

                                   

                                  Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

                                  • 14. Re: Noel Carboni
                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                    I have run some Actions using Batch and I have to say I am underwhelmed by the response. It seems that what I expect is not what I get and to avoid a bunch of extra time figuring out what I did wrong, I'll manually do the work. That's ok if only a few files are involved.

                                     

                                    Incidentally, this is another reason I prefer DxO for doing lens and camera corrections. I choose my parameter, including my own Presets, highlight the images in the thumbs strip and tell it to do the job. Takes 8 sec or so/image to do this, hardly enough time to go brew another batch of coffee! With Batch it's: "WTF did I do now!!!"

                                     

                                    Yeah, I know. Learning curve and all that. Back in CS3, it seems Batch was simpler.  Perhaps not. I did get it to run, even with a modified Action.

                                    • 15. Re: Noel Carboni
                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                      conroy2009 wrote:

                                       

                                      Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

                                       

                                      1.  Make a duplicate document.

                                      2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

                                      3.  Copy the result.

                                       

                                      4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

                                      5.  Paste.

                                      6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

                                      7.  Close without saving.

                                       

                                      Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

                                       

                                      Interesting.

                                       

                                      That made things work with Windowed view, but completely blew up in Tabbed view:  Depending on which tab I choose before running the action, it will paste the result over an entirely different document that happened to be open.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: Noel Carboni
                                        JJMack MVP

                                        Noel Carboni wrote:

                                         

                                        I don't mean to make light of the severity of this problem, but I would like to point out that I have tens of thousands of actions users and I've not gotten one report of this problem yet.  That says that the lion's share of people must be using Tabbed view on PCs (or are using Macs).

                                        You know the problem is real, exists and is bad. There are several other resaons you may not have gotten any bug reports. User found out they can bypass the error by using tabbed view and may have added steps to turn tabbed view on in the beginning of you actions and turn it back off as the end of the actions. Usere may be using tabbed view so Adobe's scripts will run. You know scripts like the Image Processor, Load files into stack, Export layers to Files, etc.  User may also just stop using action that fail.  Also your users simplely don't report bugs because your support is as bad as Adobe support.   However I find the later reason hard to beleive. ::)

                                        • 17. Re: Noel Carboni
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          JJMack wrote:

                                          There are several other resaons you may not have gotten any bug reports
                                          ...
                                          your users simplely don't report bugs because your support is as bad as Adobe support.   However I find the later reason hard to beleive. ::)

                                           

                                          LOL, you really did make me laugh out loud with that.  Thank you. 

                                           

                                          They report stuff to me and ask me questions all the time, just not this issue.  Usually it's about basic action operation ("click the name once to highlight, then press the > Play button").  I have had a couple of folks claim an older version didn't work in Ps CS6, and request the latest release (which I of course supplied), then have them tell me everything's AOK - but I could never nail down anything wrong.  My older actions work fine in Ps CS6 (within the limitations listed in this thread).  Usually I chalk those cases up to a user accidentally unchecking the "Enable" box or clicking the "Dialog" box while getting set up or getting used to the new version of Photoshop.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Noel Carboni
                                            JJMack MVP

                                            Automation is not useable in CS6 unless "Open Documents in Tabs" is enabled.  It not just you stuff that will fail Its mine, Adobe and anyone that create actions and scripts that process more then the active document and continue to process the original document after closing an addition document it introduced into the Photoshop Open Documents ring.

                                            • 19. Re: Noel Carboni
                                              conroy Community Member

                                              Noel Carboni wrote:

                                               

                                              conroy2009 wrote:

                                               

                                              Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

                                               

                                              1.  Make a duplicate document.

                                              2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

                                              3.  Copy the result.

                                               

                                              4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

                                              5.  Paste.

                                              6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

                                              7.  Close without saving.

                                               

                                              Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

                                               

                                              Interesting.

                                               

                                              That made things work with Windowed view, but completely blew up in Tabbed view:  Depending on which tab I choose before running the action, it will paste the result over an entirely different document that happened to be open.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                               

                                              Noel, see if my steps are reliable in both windowed and tabbed view when the Action is recorded with only one doc open in Ps, and played back with only one doc open in Ps.

                                               

                                              I'm finding an Action containing "Select previous document" and/or "Select next document" is only reliable when there is only one document open when the Action is recorded and when the Action is played back.

                                               

                                              Recording Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document -n", and Shift+Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document +n" where n is an integer. That's bloody useless! Why the heck was the software designed to do that?

                                              • 20. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                Hudechrome Community Member

                                                To Tab or not to Tab. That is the question....

                                                 

                                                So do we call people who use tabs, tabbys?

                                                 

                                                Message was edited by: Hudechrome

                                                • 21. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                  conroy Community Member

                                                  Noel, see the edit in my last post. It concerns having a single doc open when recording and playing that Action.

                                                  • 22. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                    conroy2009 wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Why the heck was the software designed to do that?

                                                     

                                                    Consider this: It's version 13.0.

                                                     

                                                    That's 12 major version releases after version 1.0 containing partial re-designs, rushed out the door to meet a deadline, with a changing cast of engineers working on each release, in multiple different countries and speaking multiple different languages. Tabbed view was added as an afterthought in version 11.0.

                                                     

                                                    The question really should be: How the heck is it working at all?

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 23. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                      Hudechrome Community Member

                                                      Maybe NASA or Cal Tech should take over. 8 months after initiing an Action, the Action competed in 7 minutes while NASA was blind!

                                                       

                                                      Cal Tech is just down the road from Adobe.

                                                      • 24. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                        conroy Community Member

                                                        Tabbed view was added as an afterthought in version 11.0.

                                                         

                                                        Things breaking in tabbed view isn't what I meant by my "Why the heck?" question. The question was concerned with the preceding statements in its containing paragraph. I'll try to express my point differently...

                                                         

                                                        The recorded result of Ctrl+Tab and Shift+Ctrl+Tab varies depending on the count and ordering of open docs when an Action is recorded. Reliable future playback of an Action which involves stepping back and forward through documents is made dependant on the existence of that same count and ordering of open documents. That's a recipe for disaster and may be wrecking some of JJ's Actions.

                                                        • 25. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                          I understood that, and my response still applies.

                                                           

                                                          Clearly Adobe didn't pay that much attention to the Actions engine this time around (and several previous times).  It's possible that in some past environment the current design made sense.  Or maybe not.  Did the design requirement get transmitted to the programmer with a translation error?

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 26. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                            conroy Community Member

                                                            Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                             

                                                            I understood that, and my response still applies.

                                                             

                                                            Clearly Adobe didn't pay that much attention to the Actions engine this time around (and several previous times).  It's possible that in some past environment the current design made sense.  Or maybe not.  Did the design requirement get transmitted to the programmer with a translation error?

                                                             

                                                            -Noel

                                                             

                                                            That could be the answer.

                                                             

                                                            Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

                                                            • 27. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                              JJMack MVP

                                                              conroy2009 wrote:

                                                               

                                                              I've now discovered that an Action containing "Select previous document" and/or "Select next document" is only reliable when there is only one document open when the Action is recorded and when the Action is played back.

                                                               

                                                              Recording Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document -n", and Shift+Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document +n" where n is an integer. That's bloody useless! Why the heck was the software designed to do that?

                                                              Adobe's documentation has alway stated as far as I can remenber. That select next and previous document may not alway be reliable and should be avoided if at all possible. 

                                                               

                                                              The problem I beleive is that steps between these steps may add additional document into Photoshop Open Documents ring.   Reading an action may not reviel that this is what has happen.

                                                               

                                                              For example an Action can play an other action or use a script that opens an additional documents does somthing then ends without removing the documents it added from the open document ring.

                                                               

                                                              When the original action resumes execution it may even be resuming execution on different active document then it was working on.

                                                               

                                                              The action or script used may have been using select previous and next document which worked well for it but it failed to clean up after isself, leaving additional documents open in Photoshops open document ring.  This could mess up select next and select previous document step for the action that used the action or script.  The documents that are next and previous may not be the documents the original action expect them to be for an additional documents were added somewhere into the open document ring.  

                                                               

                                                              Select Next and Previous documents steps can work correctlly when more the one document are open.  As long as the Action add the next document first so it knows what the previous and next documents are and the action is carefully recorded.in a way that no additional documents are added to the open document ring during its execution.

                                                              • 28. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                conroy Community Member

                                                                Thanks, JJ, but my question wasn't "what's happening?". It was "why was the software designed to do something unreliable?". As Noel pointed out, the software may be the way it is, not by design, but because of a translation error somewhere between design and implementation.

                                                                 

                                                                Although if you are correct (and I have no reason to doubt you) that the documentation states that there is unreliability, my question becomes "why does Adobe not provide something reliable when they are aware of the unreliability?".

                                                                 

                                                                That last one is a rhetorical question, by the way. I'm well aware that resources are limited and we can't have everything.

                                                                • 29. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                  conroy2009 wrote:

                                                                  Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

                                                                   

                                                                  Assuming you mean to record the Control-Tab and Control-Shift-Tab steps with exactly TWO documents open, that's actually what I had done the first time around.  The recorded steps were Select previous document and Select next document.

                                                                   

                                                                  This is what would not play back properly in Tabbed view.

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 30. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                    JJMack MVP

                                                                    I think is more or less the case that if your not careful as to how you use a tool the tool or the thing your working on breaks.  You should also use the best tool that you can for job at hand.  You should not use a hammer and nales to imprint you name on fine glassware.   Scripting would be a better tool to use however to use scripting  requiers higher skill set then what  is required for actions. Actions are verry easy to record.  However to create good action requires a better skill set then the adverage Photoshop user has.

                                                                     

                                                                    To get some idea of what I mean look at my free Crafting Actions Package.

                                                                     

                                                                    Crafting Actions Package Contains

                                                                    Download

                                                                     

                                                                    Noel has pointed out the he found out that Tabbed edditing has thrown some additional wrinkles into how Photoshop Open Document ring works.  That Tabs can effect the way Select Previous and Next Documents steps work.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                      conroy Community Member

                                                                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      conroy2009 wrote:

                                                                      Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

                                                                       

                                                                      Assuming you mean to record the Control-Tab and Control-Shift-Tab steps with exactly TWO documents open, that's actually what I had done the first time around.  The recorded steps were Select previous document and Select next document.

                                                                       

                                                                      This is what would not play back properly in Tabbed view.

                                                                       

                                                                      -Noel

                                                                       

                                                                      That's unfortunate.

                                                                       

                                                                      So in summary we have a difference:

                                                                       

                                                                      On my Mac, assuming only one doc is initially open when recording and one when playing, both your Action and my Action are reliable in both tabbed and windowed views.

                                                                       

                                                                      On your PC, assuming only one doc is initially open when recording and one when playing, only your Action is reliable in tabbed view, and only my Action is reliable in windowed view.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                        Yeah, it looks like this may be a PC-only bug.

                                                                         

                                                                        -Noel

                                                                        • 33. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                          JJMack MVP

                                                                          I made a simple test using CS6 with "Open Documents in Tabs" and "Enable Floating Windows Docking" checked I added four new document into so the were Untitled 1 2 3 and 4.  Using Ctrl+tab  and Ctrl+Shift+Tab always cycled through the document forward and backwords  in numeric order 1,2,3,4 and 4,3,2,1 no matter how I ordered the tabs in the window. Or how I had Photoshop tile the tabs.  Adding a fifth document added untitled 5 no matter which document was active at the time the fifth document was added and the sequence was now  1,2,3,4,5 amd 5,4,3,2,1 in numerical order from the active document.  I then draged the tabs so each document would be in a floafind window.   The Document sequences using Ctrl+Tab and Crtl+Shift+Tab remained unchanged.

                                                                          Closing documents 2 and 4 the sequensce remained in numerical order adding new document added higher number documents in tabs into active floating window. Sequences remained in numeric order.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                            JJMack MVP

                                                                            Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            Yeah, it looks like this may be a PC-only bug.

                                                                            Did you also test with CS5???

                                                                            • 35. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                              Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                              That numerical ordering is probably why Conroy's flavor of action didn't work - it assumed "Previous Document" was the lower numbered document rather than the one that had "previously" been current.

                                                                               

                                                                              Someone probably simplified the window management code and figured they could eliminate some complexity by just cycling through them in numeric order, never stopping to consider what this would do to actions that expect windows to be managed (and un-managed) a certain way. 

                                                                               

                                                                              All this is why my actions open a duplicate document, then expect on closure to return to the one that was current before opening it - which always works, ordering-wise, but unfortunately now gets the errors that are the subject of this thread.  A workaround will probably be to do some other step in the interim.  I'm not sure experimenting with that right now is high on my list of things to do, though it will escalate should 13.0.1 not fix this bug.

                                                                               

                                                                              -Noel

                                                                              • 36. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                JJMack wrote:


                                                                                Did you also test with CS5???

                                                                                 

                                                                                Not just now, but I will try it just to be sure of when it was introduced.

                                                                                 

                                                                                -Noel

                                                                                • 37. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                  As expected, my commercial actions work in both Tabbed and Windowed modes of Photoshop CS5.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Conroy's flavor of action (select previous/next sequence) fails in Photoshop CS5 as well - depending on which document of two open documents you are working on, it will write the results back to the wrong document.  "Previous" does not mean "most recently viewed window" even in Photoshop CS5.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  -Noel

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                                    JJMack MVP

                                                                                    Photoshop Document ring chain looks like something I would have coded.  There is a first and last docoument chain pointer and the documents are chained with previous and next document pointers.  The first and last document pointers would be empty when Photoshop starts. When the first document open the first and  last pointers would be point to the first document and the first documment's previous and next pointers would be empty. Document  added are always added to the end of the chain the previous last document empty next  pointer is set to point to the added document the add document previous pointer set to the old last document pointer and last document pointer is set to point to the added document. As document are removed form the chain first last previous and next pointers are maintained. I find it strange that the wrong documment would be updated. I'm sure you do to.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Are you getting any closer in joining me in a Coris of  "CS6 is all messes up" ????

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Noel Carboni
                                                                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                      If you mean "chorus", no, I don't think I'm singing too much louder than I was.  I recognized these issues before this discussion, based on your prior input, but from a practical perspective they're just not bothering me.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      My impression of Photoshop CS6, based on my own personal usage, is about the same as it was - no worse than CS5.  I guess I'm lucky I've chosen the modes and settings that apparently the developers and testers at Adobe use.  I'm thinking a lot of people must use these settings (e.g., Tabbed mode is the default, and I imagine most people just leave it set that way).

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I'm looking forward to 13.0.1, but honestly 13.0.0 gets my daily work done without hassle.  It's more stable than Photoshop CS5 was for me (it used to crash a lot on exit; the new one doesn't).  And the new Camera Raw features facilitate my making better images from my photos than I was getting before.  I'm really not finding a lot not to like.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Don't get me wrong; I believe Adobe's development processes are somewhat broken, and I hate "imperfection" passed off as "commercially viable quality".

                                                                                       

                                                                                      -Noel

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