19 Replies Latest reply: Aug 20, 2012 1:24 PM by Jeff Bellune RSS

    alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6

    VHC-CO-IT Community Member

      A customer of mine is going to be running Premiere CS6 on a system I'm building for him.  The firepro series doesn't really provide any specific benefit in technology for any Adobe products apparently so they're out.  That leaves Quadro.  Nvidia has some very impressive specs for them like how they're 8x faster than dual 8-core Xeons at certain rendering tasks (!!!).  But then I saw that even the 2000 series is around $400.  That's not bad considering the performance but then I read some reviews.  Apparently it's not that much faster overall than a $160 gaming card from the 500-series.

      Obviously it's more power/heat efficient at doing its job, as the card I'm looking at has a low profile cooler and doesn't even have a 6-pin additional power hookup but for that big of a $ difference, I'll put in a high flow fan and tell him to crank the airconditioning up in that room.  So what's a really decent mid-level card considering cost vs performance that will not be used for gaming, just Premiere?  Should I just go with one for a reasonable price with the highest CUDA core count I can get or are clock speed or 2GB vs 1GB onboard GDDR5 other significant features to weigh heavily?  I actually don't know how heavy on the VRAM CUDA operations get.

       

      By the rest, the rest of the specs are:

      MSI H77MA-G43 board

      OCZ Vertex 4 256GB SSD

      2TB WD Intellipower HDD (secondary)

      Rosewill FUTURE Case

      COOLER MASTER GX 450W Power Supply

      Gskill Ripjaw X 1600MHz CL8 (8-8-8-24 timing) RAM 2x4GB

      i5-3570 Ivy Bridge CPU (may bump down to lower clock chip since basically everything will be processed by the GPU, except maybe specific codecs, but then again it's an even trade off on money increase vs performance increase )

       

      So any suggestion on the best card to use around $125-250 would be highly appreciated.

        • 1. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
          John T Smith CommunityMVP

          Since you are building, I presume Windows and not Mac?

           

          Go to the CS5 Benchmark http://ppbm5.com/ and view the results to see what works... there are many choices

          • 2. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
            VHC-CO-IT Community Member

            Those results are so unbelievably hard to read and completely not comparable to each other Instead of just swapping out the card between systems, they changed every single other parts so any difference in speed could be attributable to anything.  Does anyone have a Mercury Engine compatible list for CS6?  That seems to be a good starting point, I just can't find one.

            • 3. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
              John T Smith CommunityMVP

              http://forums.adobe.com/thread/773101

               

              But, the official list does not include ALL cards that will work, only those cards that have completed testing

               

              For many others, with at least 1Gig of video ram, use the nVidia Hack http://forums.adobe.com/thread/629557 - which is a simple entry in a "supported cards" file

              • 4. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

                Start with the budget available. Your configuration is not very good at all, so start reading some background here: PPBM5 Benchmark

                 

                Then have a look at: MPE Gain - PPBM5

                 

                Then read some more articles in the FAQ section, and Adobe Forums: What PC to build? An update...

                 

                • MSI H77MA-G43 board, wrong choice. Consider a Z77 for a budget model.
                • OCZ Vertex 4 256GB SSD, wrong choice. Consider Samsung 830 when severely squeezed for budget, or Corsair Performance Pro.
                • 2TB WD Intellipower HDD (secondary), wrong choice. Get at least TWO WD Caviar Black or Caviar Red disks.
                • Rosewill FUTURE Case, bad choice. Look at some better full tower cases like Fractal Design.
                • COOLER MASTER GX 450W Power Supply. Much too small and not very good. Look at a Gold label PSU from a good company, like Corsair or Seasonic.
                • Gskill Ripjaw X 1600MHz CL8 (8-8-8-24 timing) RAM 2x4GB. Not enough. Get at least 16 GB.
                • i5-3570 Ivy Bridge CPU (may bump down to lower clock chip since basically everything will be processed by the GPU, except maybe specific codecs, but then again it's an even trade off on money increase vs performance increase ). Change that to at least the i5-3570K or better to an i7-3770K. And your assuption is incorrect. CPU is the overriding and decisive component.

                 

                With your choosen components you will be lucky to achieve a rank # 850 to # 950 in the benchmark, if it runs at all with that PSU. At least 20 - 40 times slower than a fast system.

                 

                If you want to have a look at how other people approach the issue of building, see Adobe Forums: Planning / building a new system. Part 1

                • 5. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                  VHC-CO-IT Community Member

                  Hmm too bad that PPBM5 chart doesn't include the new GT640 since it's PCI-E 3.0 and has a ton of cores and is only $110-ish.  I might consider that otherwise it looks like the 560 is the way to go.  They're all so darn close, I could throw just about anything in there and not see + or - 20%.  That's kinda nice actually.

                   

                  By the way, I run a PC store that does custom builds and I've been doing them for years so everything on that list was already the best build possible and your suggestions are all wildly incorrect.  Why would I go with a Z77 chipset?  Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1155#Ivy_Bridge_chipsets

                   

                  Over the H77 it has 2 PCI-E slots instead of 1 (irrelevant to me), takes out the PCI slot (irrelevant to me), and lets me use Rapid Store aka use a small SSD as a cache drive for a bigger spinning one (irrelevant to me).  So that'd be wasted money.  Also I already put the H77MA-G43 in 6 builds and never had a problem.

                   

                  OCZ 1-3 drives were a nightmare but the 4's work just fine.  I installed five of them in 2 laptops and 3 PCs in the last 3 months and none had any problems after the firmware was flashed.  Their performance is like 20% under something like a HyperX but the price is way lower too and they're the most durable in the long term.  Your suggestion of a Samsung is a very bad idea.  They're overpriced, underperforming, and have vastly inferior flash chips that fail in 1/3 the time, as do the corsair ones.

                   

                  So for hard drives, you're assuming I need 4TB of storage?  Or I should mirror 2 of them and slow down performance even worse?  Or stripe them so that if just one of them fails, I'm screwed?  Yeah, great idea.   Those intellipower drives can read at 125MB/s.  That's good enough.  I'd love it to be a striped pair but that's suicidally stupid and careless.

                   

                  Corsair and Seasonic are top notch but I'm not spending $120+ on a PSU.  I've used Coolermaster before, they're a huge company, and this particular PSU has flawless reviews by 60 people.  Over about 6 years I used about 10 of their even lower end PSUs without a failure.  They're miles ahead of what Dell and HP are using so I'm good there.

                   

                  Yeah, I may go with 16GB of RAM.

                   

                  The chip....wow.  This is my favorite part.  You suggest using the 3570K instead of 3570.  THEY'RE THE SAME SPEED!  The K is more because it has unlocked multipliers so that I can overclock it, which is the fastest way to ensure the system doesn't last longer than 3 years, overheats, or blue screens.  I've ran overclocked systems many times in the past for gaming but for video editing, DO NOT overclock your chip.  And you say my entire build is "At least 20 - 40 times slower than a fast system."  Wow, you don't have a remote clue what you're talking about.  You'd be hard pressed to build a PC 3x faster overall than the one I proposed.  Look at actual benchmark numbers and while you're at it, learn how to build a computer properly.

                  • 6. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                    VHC-CO-IT Community Member

                    Oops, forgot one.  I have a Rosewill FUTURE case sitting in front of me right now.  It's just as good overall quality as a Fractal design case, which you're just paying a ton more money for because they're pretty.  I build PCs for a living and have used over 100 various cases.  I know what I'm talking about.  You apparently do not.

                    • 7. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                      Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

                      Hmm too bad that PPBM5 chart doesn't include the new GT640 since it's PCI-E 3.0 and has a ton of cores and is only $110-ish.

                       

                      Yet another confirmation you no not understand what works with PR and why or why not. The GT 640 is even slower than a GTS 450.

                       

                      [Irrelevant and personal comments deleted]

                      • 8. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                        Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                        Gentlemen (Harm Millaard and VHC-CO-IT),

                         

                        You two have engaged in making pointed personal comments at one another across several topics.  Stop it.  Keep your posts on-topic and refrain from making personal attacks.  You've both been warned.

                         

                        Jeff

                        • 9. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                          VHC-CO-IT Community Member

                          There is no "slower" or "faster" for graphics cards.  One card may be faster at shadows in games, slower at HD playback, faster at floating point physics operations, slower at rendering in Premiere.  You know, kinda like how Quadros do some things really well and others not so much.  This is a prime example too given the specs on the 640.

                           

                          The GTS450 (which I own btw) has 192 CUDA cores.  The GT640 has 384 CUDA cores.  GT640's appear to only ship with DDR3  and 450's you'd be crazy not to get one with GDDR5 so unfortunately so there goes half the memory clock on the 640's.  The core clock rate on the 640's is WAY higher than the 450's though.  Also, 640's run on the new PCI-E 3.0 with double the bandwidth but I don't know if enough data is exchanged with the card during video operations to make it worthwhile.  So that's why I was wondering which is faster in Premiere.  I know from experience that the 450 would blow it away at gaming but my customer isn't concerned with gaming and the card seems more optimized for CUDA operations than the 450.

                           

                          The card is so new, I'll probably need someone who's actually used it to weigh in on its peformance.

                           

                          By the way, what is this "PR" you keep talking about?  Adobe doesn't have a product called that.  Do you mean Premiere?  Premiere Pro? Adobe Public Relations? Lol.

                          • 10. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                            Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

                            Have a look at the icon used for the program, unless of course you don't have it.pr.png

                            • 11. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                              Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                              "Pr" is an accepted shorthand for Premiere Pro in these forums.  The developers prefer the full Premiere Pro name, but most users don't take the time to write it out. 

                               

                              Jeff

                              • 12. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                Dan Clark Community Member

                                VHC-CO-IT,

                                 

                                I've read your posts in this and other threads, including this comment:

                                VHC-CO-IT wrote:

                                 

                                There is no "slower" or "faster" for graphics cards.  One card may be faster at shadows in games, slower at HD playback, faster at floating point physics operations, slower at rendering in Premiere. 

                                ...

                                By the way, what is this "PR" you keep talking about?  Adobe doesn't have a product called that.  Do you mean Premiere?  Premiere Pro? Adobe Public Relations? Lol.

                                While it's obvious that you're very knowledgable with hardware, I find some of your comments offensive and out of context...

                                 

                                First, Harm has been on the Pr Hardware Forum for years, providing information and assistance to a large number of people including me.   At minimum, he deserves respect for his efforts even if you don't agree with his opinion.  So can the attitude and simply state your opinions without being offensive.

                                 

                                Second, understand the culture in this forum before commenting.  This is a Premiere forum.   "Pr" refers to Premiere.   Unless stated otherwise, ALL performance related discussions are related to Premiere performance.

                                 

                                Third, you have no history in this forum and I don't agree with some of your opinions.  So you will need to provide supporting evidence until you better establish yourself here.   

                                 

                                Regarding your opinions, I disagree with your opinions about monitors.  In another thread, posted this: "One I was previously looking at for a customer is the #1 highest rated ASUS monitor on all of newegg (in the $100-200 category), winner of the customer choice award, and 23.6" with all the right specs for a mere $159.  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236052"

                                 

                                Given that they don't describe what kind of panel is in that Asus monitor, it almost certainly has a TN panel.   This monitor is good for games and watching movies.  I have four good quality TN panels (Samsung) for software development.  But the color is mediocre.

                                 

                                For critical editing of stills and video, an IPS panel is necessary (IMO). This is my monitor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002544.   Notice the IPS nomenclature in the description? (And yes, I have a Quadro 4000 to take advantage of the NEC's features.)   There are other IPS panel monitors at lower cost that will do a fine job for image and video editing.  I know of no TN panels that qualify for high-quality editing.   So...  On what do you base your monitor opinion?  How much experience do you have editing video?   How much with Pr (Premiere)?  

                                 

                                Dan.

                                • 13. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                  the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                  The chart in the PPBM5 site is but a database of systems that users of PrPro have benchmarked.

                                   

                                  When you state:

                                  Hmm too bad that PPBM5 chart doesn't include the new GT640 since it's PCI-E 3.0 and has a ton of cores and is only $110-ish.

                                  The absence of hardware only indicates that to date, no user with _____ (insert hardware here), has tested with the PPBM5, or their results have not yet been posted.

                                   

                                  It is not a test site, where the authors try out every possible piece of hardware (though some users do swap and retest), but a site that allows users to run a standardized test for their equipment, and then submit their results to be placed into the database, that we see as the chart.

                                   

                                  Good luck, and hope that clears up what the PPBM5 is, and what the chart reflects.

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  • 14. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                    jamesp2 Community Member

                                    Dan Clark,

                                     

                                    Have always been a bit puzzled, about the claim for the need of IPS panels for NLE editing, in any but the most demanding (and profitable) editing suites, since color correction will likely (and should?) be done on standard broadcast monitors in any case....  For anyone looking to save $1000+ per monitor, Is there any truly compelling advantage to having timelines, bins and viewer and source windows on scrupulously accurate monitors, apart from the confidence or pleasure that accuracy might offer?

                                    • 15. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                      Dan Clark Community Member

                                      James,

                                       

                                      You make a valid point.  IMO...

                                       

                                      On one end of the spectrum, you have the professional folks who have a pro-level NLE editing work environment with all of the appropriate tools including a standard broadcast monitor.   On the other end of the spectrum are people who want NLE basics and that's it.   And then there is the vast middle ground - people with a complex array of needs and constraints (cost and otherwise).  I would argue that IPS paneled monitors meet the needs of many folks in the middle ground.

                                       

                                      I'm in that middle ground.  I don't have the space or need for a broadcast monitor.  I want fairly accurate color when color grading, but I'm not concerned with getting it 100%.   In addition, I do photo editing (LR4 + PS CS6) and printing (Epson 3880) where color quality is very important.  The NEC calibrated with a puck and software gives me the color quality I want.

                                       

                                      My Pr editing workspace has the Pr monitor windows in the NEC monitor, and some of the other panel windows (project, timeline, effects, etc.) on a separate Samsung 2443 TN panel monitor. After recently upgrading to CS6 from CS5, I'm still fiddling with the layout, but this seems to work pretty well.

                                       

                                      Regards,

                                       

                                      Dan.

                                      • 16. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                        VHC-CO-IT Community Member

                                        I don't recall asking about monitors in this thread actually.

                                         

                                        "Third, you have no history in this forum and I don't agree with some of your opinions.  So you will need to provide supporting evidence until you better establish yourself here."

                                         

                                        Between the two other tech support forums I post on, I have 55,000 posts.  In case you missed it, I'm a high ranking member of the Association of Computer Repair Business Owners in the US and I'm the head IT manager at a medium sized company half the time and the other half, I own my own PC repair store that specializes in custom builds.  I've been operating that business for 9 years.  Not 1 single PC I've ever built (several hundred) has ever come back under warranty or had a single hardware problem.  I know how to pick out parts and how to build the best possible systems.

                                         

                                        I don't care what forum I'm on or who's posting it or what their history is, if I see someone post something like "use the K series i5's, they're faster" I'm going to correct them by posting the actual truth.

                                         

                                        [Personal comment deleted]

                                         

                                        Moderator's Note: Please refrain from discussing other forum members unless you are responding directly to them.

                                        • 17. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                          Scott Chichelli Community Member

                                          i am a system builder and specifically for NLE systems

                                           

                                          Harm was 100% correct. the system you propsed to do is so far off from being an NLE system its not funny, barely work for a gaming box and not a good one.

                                           

                                          Z77 chipset minimum why hard rive thruput for one expansion ability for 2 and frankly it really should be on an X79. using a MTX is unacceptable for video editing (other than home hobbyiest level cheesy software)

                                          3700K <--- note K for over clocking as thats the best way to go.. again should be 3930K

                                          16 gig ram absolute minimum for CS6 and 32 is better. good luck with Gskill and getting it to run right.. hope you know how to set timings manually..

                                           

                                          power supply: this is the most over looked item in a build, real system builders know this and ALWAYS over power.

                                          bare minimum is 700w 80+ ideally 1000W or more (depending on drive count and video card) a lot of our systems go out with 1200W

                                           

                                          drives :  SSD is pointless for video editing it will offer NO performance gain. it will (as the OS drive ) make windows snappier. i wouldnt touch OCZ with a 10' pole.. one of the worst companies. Crucial, Intel, Samsung

                                           

                                          very bare minimum set up

                                           

                                          OS drive

                                          Media drive

                                          Render drive 

                                          External back up

                                          thats 4 in case you lost count..

                                           

                                          better set up.

                                          OS drive (can be ssd)

                                          Media drive (raid 0) (onboard raid)

                                          Export drive (raid 0) (onboard raid

                                          external back up  (thats 6 drives)

                                           

                                          best (ish)

                                           

                                          OS SSD

                                          8-16 Drive Raid 5-6 internal or external on Intel or Arecca raid card  way overkill for most peoples needs

                                          external raid 5/6 NAS storage equal to the size of other raid.

                                           

                                          Video card:

                                          NO Quadro they are a joke unless using solidworks

                                          560/570 would be bare minimum

                                          670/680 preferred.

                                           

                                          case? frankly not all that important but since we build very quiet systems it does matter to us..

                                          cooling: your comment about "crank up the air" seriously? wow.. Noctua case fans and cpu coolers (several others as well)

                                           

                                          of course you can ignore all this if you are building a hobbiest system not a pro system.

                                           

                                          Scott

                                          ADK

                                           

                                          [Personal comments deleted]

                                          • 18. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                            VHC-CO-IT Community Member

                                            [ personal comments and attacks removed by admin ]  I'm not a hobbyist.  I build perfect computers at my company which I own and have for 9 years.  Like I said, not 1 has ever had a single hardware problem EVER.  Zero part failures.  Zero compatibility issues.

                                             

                                            Intel chipsets all have the same hard drive throughput capabilities.  You don't need a 700W power supply to power a 200W computer.  That's bad for them and bad for efficiency.  Look up what 80 PLus certification actually means and how they actually measure it or any graph of any PSU ever that they ran at multiple wattages.  The efficiency goes down the toilet below 50% usage.  Gskill has a lifetime warranty and in several hundred computers I've built, I've never had a problem and never had to set anything manually.  Turn XMP on on the motherboard if you want XMP timiings, obviously.  Overclocking a video computer is a very bad idea for heat, long term stability, and potential for corruption of the final product.  SSDs will read in and cache project files immensely faster.  GTX560 is the minimum?  It renders about 20% faster than a GT440 according to the Pr-specific benchmarks.

                                            • 19. Re: alternative to Quadro for Premiere 6
                                              Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP

                                              [Thread locked]