12 Replies Latest reply: Aug 22, 2012 11:42 PM by czarek jb RSS

    GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems

    Amarotti Community Member

      Hello All :-)

       

      I have a BMD HyperDeck Shuttle 2 and it records uncompressed and in the DNxHD (220) codec.

       

      I can import, play and edit the files just fine, but there's a major problem that makes the files useless.

       

      Static scenes are fine except they are flat and require color correction to make them aesthetically acceptable. 

       

      The main problem is that the files have horrible interlacing problems... and I'll explain.

       

      First of all, it doesn't matter whether I shoot in FSH, HBR, 24p or don't hit the camera record button at all and just record from the cleaned display... the same problem occurs, so it isn't a camera setting (I've spent 2 days experimenting with different cam settings as well).

       

      When panning I get fine interlacing lines.  They are annoying and unacceptable in their own right, but it gets worst.  Once encoded (as in for distribution) the problem is accentuated.  Huge lines appear and and make the video look horrible... it is unusable.

       

      On close inspection of the files in PP CS6 I can see that the file is filled with ghost images, which I thought were a result of duplicate frames that the GH2 has served to the BMD Shuttle 2.

       

      I've read about certain fixes for this and a the color shift issues, but  a) most sound too difficult to be used in a practical workflow and at the end of the day, they may not even work.

       

      So I'm here with hat in hand hoping that a discussion might yield some fruit that can help me, and others that are having the same problem or looking to use a Shuttle with their GH2s.

       

      -------

       

      Update...

       

      I said that extra frames were being added, well I read that recording from the GH2's HDMI port added and deleted frames randomly, and that clouded my judgment and made me lean in that direction,  but upon closer inspection (I was going to experiment with manually removing the extra frames) I found that there are no extra frames per-say.

       

      The ghosting I described is at the heart of the problem.

       

      When panning each frame appears to be a combination of 2 frames at different times.  So depending on the speed of the pan (and the shutter speed - the higher the SS the closer together is the dual images) you get an interlaced image (half of the lines) at one point in time, and another (the other half of the lines) at a later point in time. 

       

      Where they overlap, the image is solid, but on either side you have a "ghost" image which when played back you can see through the image where the missing lines are, thereby giving a notched edge  effect.

       

      And I haven't even wrapped my head around how I can fix that yet??

       

      Thanks for your interest and feedback!!

       

      AM

        • 1. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
          J. Simon Community Member

          Two comments.

           

          I believe the GH2 will only output 30i over HDMI, no matter what record settings you choose.  So right there you have an interlaced signal.  This is largely what steered me away from external recorders on the GH2.  That we can hack it and significantly improve the quality of the in-camera recording is another.

           

          Go into PP's playback settings and make sure it's not set to display both fields.  Choose Upper instead.

          • 2. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
            Amarotti Community Member

            Hello Jim,

             

            Thanks for the Reply!

             

            I believe that the GH2 outputs a 1080i 60 signal, and I thought that it didn't matter what record settings were used (HDMI suppose to bypass that) but wasn't sure what kind of magic Panasonic was using.

             

            Now I conformed the clips to Upper First, and that elliminated the problem in CS6, but the outputted files still exhibeted the same problems.

             

            I did not change the play back settings though, I will play with that... I was under the impression that they only affected the playback within CS6, I did not think that they had an affect on the output??

             

            Thanks Again!!

            • 3. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
              J. Simon Community Member

              1080i/60 is a common but technically incorrect mehtod of saying 1080i/30.  So we're in agreement about the HDMI output.  You can't get progressive out of the GH2.

               

              The Display Fields option is only for PP, it won' affect exports.

              • 4. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                ComputerNovice25 Community Member

                Are you editing then exporting from your HD timeline to HD? Or HD to SD? In my experience with cs6 if I edit HD upper field first stuff in a upper field seqeunce that was captured originally from my BMD hyperdeck studio and export it to SD, no matter what field order I use it comes out looking strange.

                 

                What I had to start doing to make it look correct was edit my upper field first content in a progressive sequence and export it to progressive.(Only When going from HD to SD though) When I edit it in HD though with the plans to export to HD I don't have to export to progressive nor edit in a progressive sequence to make it appear correct anymore.

                 

                Not really sure why it seems to play out this way though, it's just the only way I have been able to make it work. Not sure what your exporting your content as though so I'm not sure if this will apply to your issue or not.

                 

                Also when you QC your exported content what media player are you watching it in? Also what field order are you selecting upon export?

                • 5. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                  Amarotti Community Member

                  Hello Guys,

                   

                  AS far as the signal I don't know what to believe.

                   

                  Panasonic says that the new HBR mode is 1080/30p, but various video reporting tools reads the files as 1080/60i when recrding to the internal card.

                   

                  I was told that no matter what setting you had for record mode, the HDMI spits out 1080/60i, yet others have said that you can get it back to 24p by using a pull down... but how can you get it back if the HDMI port is just putting out a signal from the sensor at 1080i without regard of the recording mode??

                   

                  Anyway I ran a test just before I had to leave for an appointment, so I didn't have time to beat it up yet, but the results look promising!

                   

                  Here's what I did:  I recorded to BMD Hyperdeck using it's built in DNXHD codec (doesn't matter what record mode) and in fact I never hit the camera's record button, I just took the raw signal comming out of the HDMI port.

                   

                  Trust me, for this test I tried every setting and combination that I could think of and it didn't matter for this test what combination I used, the results were the same.

                   

                  Then I conformed the video clip in my bin to Upper First.  That seemed to fix the problem as long as I was in PP CS6, however upon export the problem still occured.

                   

                  Then upon export I chose progressive in media encoder.

                   

                  That combination seemed to fix the problem, although I'm working on a project and haven't had time to do anything but glance at the resulting H.264 output file yet.

                   

                  I'll do further testing and report back.

                   

                  If this works it will illiminate the need to run the files through yet another program.

                   

                  AM

                  • 6. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                    ComputerNovice25 Community Member

                    What field order are your sequence settings you're editing in? What field order are you selecting when you export/send to Adobe Media Encoder? Also are you scaling anything at all?

                    • 7. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                      Amarotti Community Member

                      I believe I found a solution, and it doesn't require any additional software or complicated workflow!!

                      I'll post my results soon...  AM

                      • 8. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                        J. Simon Community Member

                        others have said that you can get it back to 24p by using a pull down.

                         

                        That's sort of correct.  The HDMI port adds additional fields/frames to make the 24p original "fit" into a 30i signal for output.  Premiere Pro understands that type of situation, and can remove the extra frames on the fly simply by working in a 24p sequence.

                        • 9. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                          Amarotti Community Member

                          Hey Jim,

                           

                          That's what I don't get...  How can you get back what wasn't there in the first place??

                           

                          If the HDMI took a 24p signal and added frames, I could underestand that, but there is just a signal from the sensor that bypasses all of the camera magic (supposedly) so that would mean that the pullsown would "Create" a 24p clip like Frankenstien created a "Human"...  so you are not actually getting anything back.

                           

                          Plus, I never shoot 24p, I don't like the jerky motion that passes for the "Film Look".  I shoot on film, and it don't look like that  :-)

                          • 10. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                            Amarotti Community Member

                            BTW  Here is what Panasonic responded to my inquary with:

                             

                            "We do apologize for your inconvenience,however the HDMI port on Panasonic cameras was not meant to do off cameras and or recording purposes.The port was only meant to output a HD signal to a television.

                             

                            We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic."

                            • 11. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                              J. Simon Community Member

                              If the HDMI took a 24p signal and added frames, I could underestand that

                               

                              That is what happens.  That's how you get 30i from 24p, you add things that weren't there to begin with.  It's what DVD and Blu-ray players have always done with film content, which is shot at 24 fps, but needs to be displayed on a TV at 30i.  It's how movies have been broadcast on television for decades.  PP just happens to be smart enough to remove what was added to get back the original 24p.

                               

                              But that is somewhat moot if you're shooting at 30i to begin with, which should be coming out the HDMI port same as it's being recorded.

                               

                              Panasonic's comment doesn't surprise me at all.  It's why I went with a hack instead of external recording.  Perhaps the GH3 will be better in this regard and output a proper 4:2:2 signal in the format of choice.

                              • 12. Re: GH2 and the BMD HyperDeck Shuttle Record Problems
                                czarek jb Community Member

                                Hi guys!

                                 

                                I have no external recorder, so I cannot check it, but there is a solution for extracting a clean 24P from GH2 HDMI captures:

                                http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?237584-HDMI-Capture-Problem-SOLVED-AviSynth-RULES !

                                 

                                Ralph B, the author of this solution, described everything in the first post, so you don't have to read through the lengthy thread.

                                He also has updated his post (on 03-27-2012) adding section on HDR mode with firmware 1.1.

                                 

                                Asked later on May, whether the HDMI picture is better than the hacked picture, he said:

                                 

                                "There is a difference, but it's subtle. The problem is each person has their own perception of what's acceptable. Mine may not match yours, so there's no way I can say do it or don't do it. The best advice I can give you is to get a hold of an HDMI recording device or capture card, and run your own tests. The good news is you can record simultaneously in-camera and externally, so you can compare the two later."

                                 

                                Hope this helps.