19 Replies Latest reply: Sep 1, 2012 9:19 PM by Peter Zelchenko RSS

    EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!

    Peter Zelchenko Community Member

      Is it just me, or is Acrobat EchoSign a user-hostile piece of garbage? I am using Reader 10.1.3. Below is a form I'd love to fill out and perhaps "sign" with a TIFF of my signature, but first I have to type in some fields. Getting to this point took me 20 minutes this morning:

      Acrobat EasySign.jpg

      (Sorry about the furry JPEG; Adobe Forums only passively informed me after I tried saving to three non-antialiasing "content types" that it would only accept the JPEG.)

       

      If you will look at the name field under the "YOUR INFORMATION" section, you'll see three blue blotches reflecting three multiple-selections of zero-length text area boxes from the list at the right. Those objects are the result of my patiently left-clicking the I-beam over my name in an effort to modify the text I've entered in each field. Each time I did so, I would briefly see a blip appear under the I-beam, but it would not allow me to edit my text. The blip, of course, was a zero-length text area box being created. I persisted because at one moment I swear I did see an arrow icon and it let me make a blue selection over one patch of my text, but then for some reason when I typed nothing happened, and then the apparition vanished and I could not repeat it. And it was only after a few minutes, when in frustration I started playing with right-clicking over a text field, that I discovered the "Comments List" so useless to me.

       

      There are now dozens of these mini-boxes all over the sheet (just look at how the "Comments List" has 86 entries instead of the 12 that actually contain text). But this means I can't edit something once I've finished a text, doesn't it? If so, why not? Why is it not clear to me, a sophisticated user? Why the bizarre and unpredictable behavior? Or am I some kind of idiot, not having found the correct incantation? Perhaps one of Adobe's priestly programmers or myriad sycophants will now enlighten us all, tacitly suggesting that it's merely my stupidity, for They Knew the Blessed Secret Their First Time.

       

      I've searched pretty exhaustively for a solution to this and so far have found nothing, but perhaps that's because I've only budgeted 45 minutes for this would-be simple task. Am I going to have to pull this file into Illustrator, or print it out and mail it?

       

      Twenty or so years ago, I was probably the first or second person outside of Mountain View to be shown the alpha of Carousel. Since that moment -- and despite having held out hope numerous times -- I still can't easily fill out a document online without heartache. Why can't I edit a field? What am I going to have to do when I want to modify a multi-line field? My workarounds over the years have run the gamut of every possible thing you can imagine, from scanning into Photoshop or Illustrator or Quark or InDesign; to blind fields and double-exposures on a laser printer; to glue; even to hacking the fields into the PostScript with setfonts and movetos and shows.

       

      I've spent 40 years in the graphic arts; half of them I've wrestled with Acrobat, on some pretty complex work products having features of debatable benefit when shoehorned into PDF format. When it comes to the simple single-page monochrome Letter/A4 form -- the most abundant portable document on Earth -- we are now in Acrobat v10 and all I want to do is easily fill out a form and sign it and e-mail it back and I still can't.

       

      Why is life so much harder now than when I could run this through a typewriter, Adobe? What are you really doing about it for the billions? How much more of our lives' valuable moments are you going to squander?

       

      (P.S. What a difference almost a day makes: Hours after beginning this -- and just before submitting this article -- I myself have discovered the incantation with a few minutes' further experimentation over the many already expended. I can now recreate the arrow and edit the field. It is actually not difficult, but it is far from obvious and it is the furthest thing from good UI technique. Nevertheless, I now Know The Blessed Secret, or at least one part of it. But it does not change my position above. Can you surmise why, O Adobe Priesthood of Insufferable Sanctimony? If it takes a seasoned programmer hours to learn out the combination, what makes you think Grandma and Grandpa are ever going to figure it out?)

        • 1. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
          Peter Zelchenko Community Member

          Och, this product is a mess. I am learning more about how to use it. It is barely usable. I am attempting to distinguish between Typewriter Mode and Comments, if there is any distinction. I am trying to get out of Reader text-selection mode and add my final field, and it won't let me. I never did find how to set the leading, assuming there is a way, which there probably isn't.

           

          All of this should take zero educative time, but it is taking me much trial and error. NO pencil-and-paper emulator should require ANY trial and error, much less the extended time I am taking. If it takes ME this much time, less sophisticated users will take far, far longer.

          • 2. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
            Peter Zelchenko Community Member

            What is this? Now I want to place my signature. I'm certainly not going to use a font, as you seem to be recommending. It does list ".tiff" as a file format, but it doesn't find my ".tif" in Windows. Then, when dutifully I go through the motions of changing my .tif to a .tiff, it now tells me I can't use it as a signature, it changed its mind. I can't use it.  But then it doesn't tell me what I *CAN* use.

             

            Who WROTE this junk? How could you RELEASE something like this with your name on it, without blushing? How much would it have cost to get a UX person in front of this for five minutes before wasting the time of billions of people?

             

            How many more decades am I going to have to suffer the indignity of being a loyal Adobe user?

            • 3. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
              Peter Zelchenko Community Member

              After dutifully making four different versions of my TIFF into the other file formats EchoSign CLAIMS to accept, I find that it only accepts JPEG.

               

              I've glanced at the EchoSign web site. I must be evil, since all of the testimonials on their web site show that the rest of the world loves the product. From the home page:

               

              "RT @DanKimRedMango: @therealmach3 I love you @EchoSign. I also love Adobe anything"

               

              Well, well. That's, well, almost blind loyalty, isn't it? (Adobe ANYTHING? Really?!)


              It's the kind of customer service environment where you can be sure I'll get the response: "I dunno, sir. We've never, ever had any complaints of this nature."

              • 4. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                Claudio González MVP

                This is a user to user forum. There is nothing us fellow users can do about this except sympathizing with you...

                • 5. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                  Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                  I'm well aware of the brick wall that enormous enterprises erect while masquerading at being supportive of the users they are so dependent upon. Adobe's BBS that they jokingly call a Forum is pigeonfeed, whitewash that begs the question, "In the high-tech industry, whatever happened to real responsiveness to customer needs?" We've made them filthy rich.

                   

                  The QC cycle has disappeared in our generation, and Adobe has been at the forefront of the trend. I understand the economic constraints, but I'm sure that in 25 years Adobe could have figured out some clever and efficient way to manage a proper mass-user feedback loop. Despite the fact that this is essential to a symmetrical relationship with its userbase, it just hasn't been their priority. Hence the sporadic product quality, driven mostly by market weens.

                   

                  Still, I imagine Adobe staff condescend into these forums once in a blue moon when the mood strikes them or when the temperature rises.

                  • 6. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                    George_Johnson ACP/MVPs

                    I'd have to say that a big part of the problem is due to the agency providing the form. It would have worked far better if they had taken the time to add actual interactive form fields so you wouldn't have to bother with the typewriter tool. It's actually nice that Adobe provides this as an option of last resort for PDFs that look like forms. It's a bit silly to provide a PDF of a form and not make it fillable, especially since it's been possible since Acrobat/Reader 3. That particular form would be easy to set up with fields.

                     

                    Regarding the TIFF file not being accepted, now that's worth looking into some more. Consider filing a bug report.

                    • 7. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                      Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                      I disagree. Acrobat's forms capability is gilding the lily in most cases. It was also a good idea executed poorly. Something like EchoSign is another alternative perfectly capable of making simple form completion possible.

                       

                      Furthermore, what are you asking? That I should send the attachment back to the clerk and tell her to go find someone to make this Acrobat Forms capable? What planet are you on? This is the real world.

                       

                      What I ask is modest: I want to click over the background of a static form and superimpose a line or multiple lines of basic text. I would like to place a transparent black-and-white image over another area. None of that is rocket science. EchoSign is capable of making it simple; it just fails to do so due to serious failings in its user interface.

                      • 8. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                        Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                        You file a bug report. I've already done my civic duty a few times over here. Better yet, let Adobe COME TO US and seek out the problems. Let them come here onto their server and FIND what concerns us. That's what I always do when maintaining a product.

                        • 9. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                          George_Johnson ACP/MVPs

                          > I disagree.

                           

                          I don't understand. Are you saying that if the form had been fillable, with actual interactive form fields, that you still would have had a problem completing the form (apart from the signature)? If so, what would your complaint have been? Acroforms are a mature, stable, and widely used technology. Using the typewriter tool is comparatively clumsy, but at least it's an option when form creators fail their users.

                           

                          As I said, I agree that the TIFF import problem is definitely worth looking into. EchoSign is a very new feature for Reader, and there are bound to be a few bugs. If you're interested in getting it fixed, post a bug report.

                          • 10. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                            Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                            Are you saying that if the form had been fillable, with actual interactive form fields, that you still would have had a problem completing the form (apart from the signature)? If so, what would your complaint have been? Acroforms are a mature, stable, and widely used technology. ...

                            If the form had been fillable, good for the form. I probably would have used it. (Then for the signature, then what?) What I am saying is that if I find a form that has not been made fillable, I should be able to fill it easily. With basic Acrobat Reader. Without your advice. Without a manual. And I should have been able to do this for a long, long time. Though it was always trivial to implement -- even including superimposing a basic signature -- I have found no such functionality. I have suffered in silence for years each time I've received an electronic document. And -- ahem -- I'M NOT ALONE.

                            ...Using the typewriter tool is comparatively clumsy, but at least it's an option when form creators fail their users.

                            Ahh..."when form creators fail their users." Aeschylus, I think, wrote, "It is easy to give advice to the afflicted when we are in prosperity." If it were easy enough to create an Acrobat Form, businesses and individuals across the world wouldn't have to pay Adobe MVP++++'s like you the big bucks for doing it for them. It's not easy. It also requires specialized software. Software that comes at a premium. "When form creators fail their users." This is the kind of condescending, sanctimonious thinking and language I am referring to when I talk about the Priesthood. You as an obvious Priest can't possibly comprehend what difficulties a User sustains, whether the User be an individual or a small business. You lost the insight that night when first you donned the frock.

                            As I said, I agree that the TIFF import problem is definitely worth looking into. EchoSign is a very new feature for Reader, and there are bound to be a few bugs. If you're interested in getting it fixed, post a bug report.

                            These are not "a few bugs," these are serious functionality issues. (God, it's like talking to a wall!!!) The product should never have been released without going through a UX cycle, which it obviously has not. An ethical publisher would not release something like this onto the masses without FIRST reviewing that it works well.

                             

                            George, your dismissiveness of the REST of my problem -- isolating the TIFF issue as the only meaningful thing (TO YOU!) -- is an insult to the issue and helps underscore my point about the priesthood. You've got four plus signs and zero sensitivity to the needs of users. But I'm sure it will achieve the purpose, that this won't escalate into Adobe HQ, because a Priest has anathemized the majority of my complaint. Thanks, George!

                            • 11. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                              Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                              By the way, George. Your comments raise a more important point. You acknowledge that Acroforms lacks the ability to include a signature. How, then, may I use it to complete an e-mailed form and return it SIGNED to its origin via e-mail? That's a huge thing for it not to be able to do, since I must then still "print out, sign, and mail back" (or, alternatively, scan back in as a bitmap and e-mail back, how ridiculous). How many hundreds of times have I had that mantra at the end of a secretary's e-mail to me?

                               

                              What, then, is the use of Acroforms if I must still print the document and put ink on it? Its only remaining uses are for people with such poor penmanship that they must type, and for enterprises that must rely on its database extraction functionality. This latter functionality, I think relatively very few who use Acroforms actually take advantage of, since it's a Big Workflow Issue that requires a couple of MVP++++'s to Make It Manifest. Most forms need to be signed. The lack of that renders Acrobat Forms pretty sterile.

                               

                              And so, the only real use of Acrobat Forms today, is for people with poor penmanship.

                               

                              This was the state of the art six years ago: http://acrobatusers.com/tutorials/getting-started-acrobat-forms. It's changed little since then. They were also getting us all hyped up about Digital Signatures back then, when all we wanted was to be able to stamp our John Hancock on the PDF before sending it back. All that has done is get in my way.

                               

                              Such a simple, waffer-thin proposition -- to drop in a signature -- it's missing in basic Acroforms, isn't it? And, hey, it's been missing since, as you yourself seem to say, Acrobat 3.

                               

                              And this is what you call a "mature" technology.

                              • 12. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                Claudio González MVP

                                You don't seem to realize that you are addressing fellow users here, not Adobe. No use to bark at us, this is the wrong tree.

                                • 13. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                  Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                                  First of all, Claudio, you're wrong. Adobe staff do lurk on this system -- well, anyway, little guys in Bangladesh.

                                   

                                  Secondly, I'm not barking at either you or George Johnson -- I have nothing personal against either of you. I'm agitating, demonstrating the problems both with EchoSign and with Adobe. I'm fed up with it and this is my way of doing something about it and a permanent public place in which to document the problem.

                                   

                                  Finally, if in fact you were right -- that higher development Adobe staff do not come down from their hill to review content in these forums -- you would be proving my point that this is a mere barnyard for us to complain at one another, and Adobe staff in the manor house are truly demonstrating a classic break between user base and development (even the most sophisticated users, as we see on these forums). They are making us do most of the customer service work that companies used to be expected to do. And the QC cycle that they used to be expected to do has practically vanished. You get little plus-signs after your name and a warm feeling of patriotism that surges through your body whenever you see the glorious Adobe flag. Though your assertion is partly true and does prove my point, there are ways to get them to come down from the manor house and visit the barnyard, as I intend to demonstrate soon.

                                   

                                  These are products that are unleased no longer on millions, but on BILLIONS, of users. To have a customer-service dead-end like Adobe Forums is perhaps more than some companies do, but it's far less than a good company should do today. To have a QC cycle for UX issues atrophy into nothing for such a massive proposition is simply wrong. It actually hurts users. They need to fix the product right away.

                                   

                                  (Side note to Adobe Forums programmers, assuming you're not listening: Ctrl-arrow at the ends of lines in this editor jumps across two words, not one. How many years has since that bug was implemented? How many years before it's fixed? Try it and see for yourselves.)

                                  • 14. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                    Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                                    I've invited Jason Lemkin and Dan Foygel (the original developers of EchoSign and now in the manor house at Adobe, or at least in the servants' quarters), as well as the relevant top Adobe brass, to visit this thread. Let's see how long it takes for them to respond.

                                    • 15. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                      Claudio González MVP

                                      You are of course entitled to vent here as much as you like (or are allowed). However, don't expect to receive in this forum official answers to any of your questions, or to produce any major or minor change in Adobe's policies or products by posting here.

                                      • 16. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                        Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                                        Again, Claudio, you are such a good performer that you help prove a couple of my points at once:

                                         

                                        • Your reference to my "venting" indicates your tacit understanding that this place is, in fact, a barnyard for you and me. The authoritarian tone you and George use on me, the fact that you and George keep attempting to teach me something, indicates that you recognize yourselves as superior beings to others here, including me, and that your function is to maintain a pecking order that holds you at the top and the rest of us at the bottom. This social dynamic distracts us all so that we forget that there are invisible others even higher up than you who actually have the power to do something about this.
                                        • By extension, this situation gives you and everyone else here the impression that this forum is as high as one can go to get succor. That is intentional. But anyone can reach into Adobe's corporate structure and get what they want, if they know how. Nobody teaches this, but I have learned the black art. You and George know only how to regurgitate PostScripture and tend the barnyard free for Adobe, so as to get more plus signs after your name. That will get you into your personal PostScript heaven. I, however, have done something with more temporal and humanistic value. I've e-mailed Jason Lemkin (EchoSign CEO) and Dan Foygel (EchoSign CTO), the two people most responsible for the problems with EchoSign I list above, and the ones most able to do something about it. I've fed them only the link to this thread. They will come here soon, I promise. They may not show themselves, because such minor miracles create a public stir. I also bcc'ed people at the top of the Adobe power structure, so as to improve the odds that Jason and Dan will take action. Watch how things change.
                                        • 17. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                          pwillener ACP/MVPs

                                          Peter Zelchenko wrote:

                                           

                                          (Side note to Adobe Forums programmers, assuming you're not listening: Ctrl-arrow at the ends of lines in this editor jumps across two words, not one. How many years has since that bug was implemented? How many years before it's fixed? Try it and see for yourselves.)

                                          The forum admins are definitely not visiting the product forums, but do listen here http://forums.adobe.com/community/general/forum_comments

                                           

                                          I actually have never heard of the Ctrl+arrow shortcut, so I just tried it here in this post: interesting feature!  But it does skip one word at the time, at least under Waterfox 15 on Windows 7.

                                          • 18. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                            Claudio González MVP

                                            If you find that I have used an authoritanian tone, I apologize; it's not in my style. All I have tried to do is to make you see that you are wasting your time by posting these complaints here. And with this, I am off.

                                            • 19. Re: EasySign: Can I or can't I modify filled fields?!
                                              Peter Zelchenko Community Member

                                              You do it unconsciously; we are all forced into these mentalities by our circumstances. But all three of you experts were wrong about who listens, at least when you pray as loudly as I do:

                                               

                                              On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Kevin M Lynch <k...@adobe.com> wrote:

                                              Hi Peter,

                                               

                                              This is Kevin M. Lynch and I run the Acrobat & Document Services business at Adobe (coincidentally our CTO is also named Kevin Lynch, but I’m not him - I run the document business). 

                                              I saw your forum post (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1058887) and want to apologize for the difficulties you’re having filling out and signing a form.

                                              It’s certainly our intention to make this a very easy process so I’m glad you went to the trouble to let us know that it was a frustrating experience for you.

                                              Frustrating to me, but mainly because it is no doubt frustrating for (literally) billions of others less sophisticated than me. That is my main concern, and the ball I keep my eyes on. I feel terribly sorry for them.

                                              From what I can gather, you had no problem knowing where to go and click the “Sign” panel on the right and then clicking the add text button (and let me know if otherwise).

                                              Well, that's a separate issue. I intuited that it was what I might need to fill out a basic form. But most people won't get even that.

                                              But then there were two issues that prevented filling out and signing the form from being drop-dead easy:

                                               

                                              1)      After adding text the first time (which was hopefully easy – let me know if not), you couldn’t go back and correct it.  Every time you tried, you ended up inserting a new blank text block.  It would have been much nicer if we had a wider selection range so that if you clicked anywhere near a field that was already added we just selected it and allowed you to edit it.

                                              I don't know about the width of the selection range; it seemed to me that there was *no* selection tolerance. I was rolling all over the text looking for it to catch and it wouldn't, hence 75 null textareas. (Possibly the cursor just was refusing to change from I-beam to arrow, I reasoned, and clicked, but did not get into an edit mode.) My sense is that it was not going to give me an arrow no matter where I went. My workaround (which few of your millions will be patient enough to discover) was forcibly exit the I-beam mode by going to the "Place Signature" mode and then re-enter the "Add Text" mode, which then readily showed me an arrow whenever I rolled near/over a textarea, and then let me click into the textarea and modify it.

                                               

                                              I'm not on the subject machine. I'm on a brand-new laptop now and just upgraded its Reader from the factory 10.0.0 to 10.1.4 to get EchoSign and see if I can reproduce it here. On the same document, I appear now to be able to roll over created textareas and click the I-beam over them and get in. So it's not a global issue. The exhibiting machine is, I think, a Lenovo with Windows XP, but I will have to check this. If you need specific installation information to help isolate, please tell me what you need.

                                               

                                              But I'm seeing some wrong behaviors even now:

                                               

                                              • While in "Add Text" mode (even when appearing to function properly, as on this installation), the elongated I-beam cursor does not morph to anything else as I roll over, so there is insufficient feedback prompting me to know I can modify the field.
                                              • This is inconsistent with what I experience when I escape "Add Text" mode. (I find I can escape "Add Text" either by entering "Insert Signature," as I note above, or in another way, by manually closing the editing palette by clicking its close box.) When I move out, I appear to be in a free-cursor mode; it now prompts me with a change to an arrowhead cursor whenever I roll over a textarea, and then it puts me into something unexpected called "Typewriter" mode (the only surface indication of the difference is that a lozenge in the editing palette now says "Typewriter" instead of "Add Text".
                                              • It is altogether unclear the functional difference between "Typewriter" mode and "Add Text" mode, or the purpose of having two different identities for two modes that seem to share some functions. Their behavior, however, is different enough to cause confusion. This could be streamlined quite a bit.
                                              • Editing text (new or modifying) in either of these two text modes appears to be operating one pixel below the finished text after repainting.

                                              2)      You couldn’t add a TIFF image as signature.   I’ll have to have my team look into this as I can add one without any problems on my system.  However, like you, I don’t understand why we don’t have both TIF & TIFF in the filter so I’ll have to follow up with my team to see if there is any reason for that.

                                              This may also be local to that machine I was on Friday. When I return to Chicago I can check this, if it's important to you and if you are confident that doing so will bear fruit.

                                              Am I correct in that those were the two issues or were there others?  Once you went off the beaten path into comments you could see that we use the commenting capability, but our intent is to have it easy enough that you would never go there.  If it helps to clean up your document, you can select each blank comment  in the right side panel and hit the delete key to get rid of them.

                                              See above, which gives you some more information. As you can glean from between all of my acerbic comments, I felt that the user experience was in many places carelessly thought through. You provide another case in point above, speaking of "Comments" mode. The three modes -- "Add Text," "Typewriter," and "Comments" -- obviously are genetically related. Their respective purposes become indistinct and confusing to the casual user. The basic shift from mode to mode is confusing; tool depth level and state are uncertain; use metaphor for each tool is nonstandard, inconsistent, and counterintuitive; visual feedback is lacking or inconsistent; and I think in some generals and some specifics each tool's entry point and interface needs to be reworked. I realize that you're constrained by the Reader API UI, so you don't have infinite flexibility, but there are still some basic things you can do.

                                               

                                              Even with a working installation as I have here, it is confusing. On my View menu, I have two "Sign" and two "Tools" items. Why? I can't seem to find how to get back into "Typewriter" mode. What is it? Where is its entry point? Is it part of Sign or is it part of something else?

                                               

                                              Form filling could use some user workshopping to figure out how to make it intuitive. Starting from the top, ideally, Acrobat Forms, if implemented in a document, should be user-seamless with EchoSign. Whether a document is forms-enabled or not, ideally the tools should have the same look and feel. I am skeptical about that being easy. But George Johnson raised the point that you now have two distinct products serving (from the user's perspective) identical purposes. If Reader is going to be user-centric, that proposition needs to be taken into account right away. Starting with that, a universal text editing palette for both Forms and EchoSign (whatever the underlying difference) might be in order. Distinguishing among text "in stone" (the immutable background PDF); malleable superimposed text fields and images (e.g., signature); and comments needs to be treated.

                                               

                                              If I were god, just off the top of my head, tomorrow I would open all Acrobat documents by default in a basic "Add Text [e.g., fields and comments] or Image [e.g.,signature]" mode with a universal text-cum-graphics palette, similar to what you have but switchable within between text and image (consider PageMaker's old universal palette, dumbed down). If forms-enabled, the text palette would be activated and the cursor inside Field 1 ready to type. If not, you have an I-beam as the default. You could switch to Image mode within the palette and the palette would provide a signature subfunctionality (including EchoSign's capability of retaining as default signatureStamp), or other image type. Maybe outside that mode is panning and zooming, maybe panning and zooming are hierarchically equal to those two modes. I at least believe that the key to this is that text / comments // signatureStamp / images should now be as basic to Reader as pan/zoom. How to make those two modes intuitively switchable by the grandparents is probably not so tricky, but I would have to think about that a bit more.

                                              I appreciate the time you’ve already taken to struggle through this and provide feedback.  I personally want to eliminate the need to print out, sign, and fax back these stupid forms!

                                              You and a few billion others. Thanks for the prompt response.

                                               

                                              Regards,

                                              Kevin