17 Replies Latest reply on Nov 1, 2012 8:32 AM by Wade_Zimmerman

    Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers

    CaramelMacchiato Level 1

      Excuse me, Adobe.


      Don't get this wrong, I personally have nothing against Adobe. Please know and realize that Adobe probably don't realize this, or simply don't have a heart to realize this by now. Adobe actually losing some valuable registered lifetime 'diehard' Adobe customers like other creative professionals and myself.


      Yesterday I learned that Adobe released exclusive update release only for Adobe Creative Cloud customers with Illustrator's new package update. I find that very ironic approach, because I know that diehard Adobe Illustrator customers have request for it for years. Adobe basically ignored us, creative professionals, instead of us, focusing on Adobe Creative Cloud customers.


      Rest assured, Adobe Master Collection CS6 is more likely my final upgrade purchase. It was a big slap in my face. I know that it is not just me, knowing that many other creative professionals are upset as I am.


      Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly am (now was) a lifetime diehard Adobe customer.


      Dear Adobe, just tell me if I am wrong. I just cannot justify the cost benefit analysis on advantage of Adobe Creative Cloud, where it is more of "renting" while many other creative professionals including myself prefer traditional way of upgrading through Adobe online store just as in the past and at present time. Many of us prefer "traditional" way of "owning" Adobe Creative Suite apps rather than 'renting' apps. In a long run, by owning traditional app/purchase do have super duper advantage over Cloud in terms of real cost of doing business. While traditional customers like myself still own Adobe apps even if when Adobe decides no longer support, we still own the legacy versions regardless.


      So, what happens if one day, out of blue, I fear that Adobe eventually realize that Adobe Creative Cloud is not viable or feasible to continue. That will certainly make some customers not happy. What happens to traditional customers like creative professionals and myself spent huge amount of investment in traditional qualified upgrades, and then switched to Cloud.. then one day Adobe decide not to support Adobe Creative Cloud.. what does this means to traditional customers like myself owned versions of serialization numbers over the years - down in the drain and Adobe Creative Cloud 'temporary' annual serial number no longer viable, and force us to pay FULL traditional license all over again. In that case, that is where I am dealing with this concern. I just cannot possibly trust Adobe on that one. I do have huge benefit of doubt on that one.


      For example, with Adobe decided to invest some of its resources developed new applications such as Adobe Flash Catalyst and few others in Adobe Creative Suite CS5. When Adobe released CS6, Adobe dropped Flash Catalyst. That is one of example on why I do have benefit of doubt on long term viability and feasibility of Adobe Creative Cloud.


      Please listen to us, creative professionals out of our concerns.


      If Adobe refuse to listen, include us in that respect, so be it. It is possible that Adobe eventually be losing many lifetime, diehard Adobe creative professionals.


      To be honest, I am very disappointed with Adobe's attitude toward creative professionals' being diehard lifetime support and invested lot of our time, tools, and skills and everything... time and money. It is all down in the drain. Thanks!


      Have a fabulous day!

        • 1. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
          Jesseham Level 4

          This is really a kick in the gut.  I guess they have to have a way to lure us "perpetual license" owners over to the more expensive subscription license.  It's pretty amazing what you can get away with when you have no competition.  Do you think that collect for output and unembed images will make it into CS7 or will there be a special gold plated CS7.1 just for loyal cloud members?

          • 2. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
            Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

            This is a litttle amusing there is another thread whcih claims that the Traditional user pay more than the cloud subscribers but here the claim is it is more expensive as a cloud suscriber?


            Jesseham has it a bit off centered as well for package and the unembed is available for the cloud users now and will be part of CS 7 for both the cloud and the traditional users.


            but you are correct it is like renting but not really as because if you rent and then there are improvements made to what you rent like an apartemtn they charge you for the improvements by increasing…the rent.


            Now i do not say this is something you should or should not embrace that is certainlly up to the individual but Adobe I think has to make sense in how it can work more effectively with it's users.


            You might not see the advantages or like it working different from what you have been use to that is strictly your right to see it the way you do but you ight find that it in the future when more users join the cloud and like the idea that their software will be updated with out the need to wait and that they may have more influence this way then you might wish to join as well.


            For instance some users are loyal Adobe users and update all or almost all versions of the Adobe software they use and then there are othrs that do not for instance there is one or two on the Forum that use CS 10 still today. When their current computer gives way and it will they will propbalay try to buy the current version of  Adobe software and hope they can deal with it for another really long time.


            So they may think that your way of paying for upgrades is the reason they do not get free updates to their software becu7ae you are paying for upgrades rather than holding out until Adobe upgraded it for free.


            But of course Adobe cannot afford to make those upggrades unless they have a long term relationship with the customer hence the cloud and the aility to deliver these updates on an on going basis.


            I understand your point of view but I do not know, and zI own several licenses to Master Collections which I can upgrade to the cloud I am not ready to do so but i think I would like to do so as i think it makes sense to me.


            But this does take a little time to say yes  and move on to it.



            • 3. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
              JETalmage Level 6

              And customers fall for it like suckers.


              Software development during the emergence of a new category has always been lucrative. A small handful of developers with a good idea sweat blood for a couple years building the core application. Once it exists, delivery is cheap and profit-per-sale is high. Users buy licenses for several hundreds of dollars each. Each new license sale costs next to nothing to replicate in terms of manufacturing. It's all marketing, packaging, and distrubution. Disks are copied and printed for less than $1 each. Printed manuals, of course, may cost $20 or so, depending on color, quality, etc. There is real overhead, of course, in developing good content for manuals.


              When all this stuff was new software titles used to cost less, but shipped with installation disks and thorough printed manuals, and a set of added-value extras, like utilities, fonts, clipart. And new version improvements were quite significant and innovative.


              But once the software category "matures," with each version, the prices go up; the bundled "extras" become fewer. The focus shifts toward continually look for ways to cheap-out on the customers in order to "improve" the margin for the stockholders, and "milk" the increasingly archaic and mundane software for all that can be got out of it. One way this is done is by turning real value into mere perceived value. Adobe is the worst offender in this regard.


              Print manuals have become pay-extra, or non-existent. It astounds me that in the much-ballyhooed age of "information at your fingertips" the ondisk local help has become increasingly difficult and tedious to access. Now, the default behavior of the Help menu has even been modified to disuade users from accessing local PDF versions of the documentation to coerce them to go online for help files access (this from the company that is highly dependent upon PDF). Slow, tedious, and non-contextual as it is, PDF was bad enough. Having to go to Adobe's crappy "community help" system is ridiculous.


              This is all promoted, of course, as "immediate access to continual improvement." And customers fall for it like suckers.


              Look at the increasingly innane questions that occur  daily in this Forum. Newcomers ask the most basic questions, making it obvious they haven't even tried to read page one of the documentation. I've been at this stuff since the beginning. It didn't used to be this way.


              Are they all lazy dolts? No. Documentation has become less accessible and less thorough.


              Next, Adobe turns the online documentation essentially into blogs. "Live feedback"? "Continual improvement"? Baloney. Beginners clutter what should be authoritative documentation with innane comments. Questions get transferred to the User Forums, where Adobe sluffs off its responsibility for product support to its users; which more often than not turns into a time-wasting process of the blind leading the blind.


              Of course, only a mere mention of the term "tech support" will suffice. Everyone knows what thas become.


              Once you've eliminated the costs of printing, packaging, and delivering disks and documentation, and turned everything into electronic downloads (causing each customer hours of downtime--often even days futzing around with Adobe's horrible installers), what's next? Stockholders still want increased margin.


              Software by subscription and web-centric automation--while still increasing prices, of course--has long been the holy grail of software developers. This is true of all the biggies, including Microsoft, and of course Adobe. But how do you pull it off? How do you convince the suckers?


              Releasing new features to the buzzword "cloud" before making them available to perpetual licensees will be Adobe's attempt to "sweeten the pot" to con those who buy into the software subscription scheme. Time will tell how successful the ruse is for Adobe.


              The truth is, though, in terms of actual quality of the product, (especially Illustrator) nothing has changed for the better. Look at the very features that we who choose to stay with the relative safety of a traditional license are so upset about: Bundle for output? Export embedded images?


              People, how archaic, how old, how yesterdecade's news is that? This is "quick development" that can only be delivered by the "cloud"? Give me a break.


              It's utterly laughable, as Illustrator's cobby, clumsy, over-glorified, under-delivered, decades-late-to-the-game delevery of practical functionality always has been. So what's the big rush anyway for features that are already literal decades late? Sheesh, guys, Illustrator is not the only game in town.


              Consider: Since the release of CS6, how many posts have you forum regulars seen expressing excitement over the precious few actually new features, like grads-on-strokes? How many stunning examples of use of that feature have you seen users post?


              By comarison, how many posts have you seen on complaints about performance and buggy behavior? And proportionally how many are still the endless stream of repeats of the same old questions from newcomers trying to make sense out of Illustrator's uncomparably unintuitive, cluttered, and confused interface? I see the latter largely increasing. And I take that as clear indication that Adobe's treatment of "newfangled" documentation is not working. (And, of course, that Illustrator's interface is still as hideously unintutitve as it has always been.)


              Meanwhile, for the first time in too many years, I actually experienced again that new-purchase satisfaction of money-well-spent when I opened the Corel Graphic Design X6 Suite package to find a full-color manual with a hard-bound cover no less! Upgrade cost for anyone with a copy two full versions old? $200. Comes with 1000 OpenType fonts, huge clipart collection, truly useful utilities, and alot more.


              I still get a thrill out of every new release of Xara Designer Pro. So much elegant functionality, such clean-running speed, so stunning results possible from that tidy, inviting, intuitive interface in so affordably-priced and fun-to-use application.


              Meanwhile, Adobe upgrades have become more burden than pleasure. I actually dread them, especially having been suckered into the whole "Master Collection" thing. CS6 still sits on my desk uninstalled. I just dread having to mess with it.


              Oh, but James! That's why you should buy into "the creative cloud"!


              Well, don't hold your breath, bucko. If I decide to let CS7 or whatever just slide right by, I'll still be able to keep running the version I've got--without sending a monthly check to Adobe.


              These days--when so many younsters who have never swung a hammer at a nail actually try to rationalize renting over home ownership; and when so many middle-agers rationalize making perpetual interest payments for the instant gratification of driving a new car every year--who knows; the "creative cloud" sham may actually succeed.


              But not with me. Instead of watching money automatically fly out the window by itself, I'll be chuckling away, using whichever of my usual collection of 2D vector drawing programs I feel most advantageous--or most fun--for the task at hand.



              • 4. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                JETalmage Level 6

                Yes, I know it's a different product category. But the point still applies:


                Yesterday, my son (a quite talented illustrator, by the way) was showing me the software package he'd just received: the recently-released collector's edition of the Goldwars 2 game.


                In additon to the program disks, the package included:


                • A 9"-or-so-tall detailed character figurine
                • An intricately decorated, embossed tin box containing:
                  • A perfect-bound, full-color, heavyweight glossy stock book telling the story of the program's development, illustrated by the stunning conceptual dev artworks
                  • A set of a dozen or so small posters, quality printed on heavy stock, and a tabletop frame for them
                  • A packet containing the support documents, etc.



                The price? About $120.


                Those of you whose use of mainstream graphics software dates back to the mid 80s...remember those unexpected pleasant surprises that were always included in the package with new releases? Like significant feature improvements that weren't mentioned in the bullet lists of the marketing hype? Those were the features that I most looked forward to with every new version of FreeHand.


                My above-mentioned son still wears the nicely-designed t-shirt that unexpectedly shipped with my copy of CorelDRAW X3 or X4. On my studio's software shelf, I still have proudly displayed that gallon paint can that Painter 1.0 shipped in, containing the printed documentation.


                Adobe, by the way, is the company that built itself upon the platform of software for graphics. And for print. Adobe charges extra to send you your $1200 update on a disk.



                • 5. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                  [scott] Level 6

                  James annoys me, often to an infuriating degree. On most occassions I'll simply not respond or even acknowledge his posts.


                  While I don't agree with absolutely everything above. I do agree with at least 99% of what James has posted. Adobe has repeatedly shown a propensity to short the customer in favor of the bottom line. The 'cloud' is nothing more than the latest move to do so. How Adobe prices can contiunually rise while at the same time Adobe products deliver less astounds me.

                  • 6. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                    JETalmage Level 6

                    Yeah, well...in response to that rather backhanded agreement, I'll just say...


                    It's Saturday of Labor Day weekend. I'm gonna be banging up some home-made handguards for my brand new DR650. And I really won't be giving a moment's thought to my popularity rating on the Illustrator user forum.




                    I'll not be loosing any sleep over somebody being able to perform an already decades-late function in Illustrator a few months before I can, either. Like I said, it's just another reason to use something else.



                    • 7. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                      Kurt Gold Adobe Community Professional

                      Package Files feature that early?


                      Plus Unembed images? That's a storming innovation in 2012. And all that amidst a cloud. Respect.

                      • 8. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                        tims_ghost Level 1

                        I have Master CS5 which my company has "owned" for over a year but I have not had a lot of time to use it until now.  With new projects coming up I was considering an upgrade to CS6 but now have my doubts if I even want to start using it. 


                        I don't want a cloud subscription, but at the same time I am seeing in other forums that Adobe will only make some applications available on "the cloud".  My company is in the budget process for 2013 and I could easily include an upgrade to CS6 in the capital budget, no problem.  Week 1 of 2013 I could order it and it is a company asset.  If I proposed "the cloud" and put it in as a "monthly subscription" it will be automatically denied with no questions asked.  New montly expenses are not acceptable.


                        So Adobe's new models don't seem to meet the needs anymore and I will have to "buy" products that meet all the needs.

                        • 9. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                          Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                          But it is probably the way of the future and at means eveally there will be no choice a d your company will have to work this way.


                          At the moment you can still upgrade as you have in past but as you point out there arecadvantages to the cloud and if you pass that by you do not have access to those advantages so you do not accomplish anything by doing so.


                          I can assure complaining is not going to accomplish anything as welll. The cloud ia a product like anyother product. You look at the advantages and disadvantages a nd by the product that best suits your needs. It's called Capitalism.


                          Just like your company they set up what ever they offer and if it works for the user it works if not the user goes somewhere else. And trust me many times you are better off that they go somewhere else.

                          • 10. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                            tims_ghost Level 1

                            - But it is probably the way of the future and at means eveally there will be no choice a d your company will have to work this way.


                                 Wow.  That kind of sounds like the current political environment.  Bow down and submit. 


                                 No.  I do have choices and I do not have to work that way.


                            - I can assure complaining is not going to accomplish anything as welll. The cloud ia a product like anyother product. You look at the advantages and disadvantages a nd by the product that best suits your needs. It's called Capitalism.


                                 I don't believe in my post that I was complaining.  I was presenting my case to demonstrate to the audience and Adobe that their new sales models don't work for me anymore and that I will look at alternatives. As you said, it Capitalism and the changes in their product offerings no longer suit my needs.

                            • 11. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                              [scott] Level 6

                              Some users can be a tad myopic when it comes to thinking the way Adobe does thing is the only or best way or the way all companies will move.


                              All I can say is look at Rhapsody with thier $10/month subscription to unlimited music. Then look at iTunes with their 99¢ a song model. Which is doing better?


                              It's my fervent hope that this non-user friendly subscription model dies a quick and nasty death. It does not serve to make anyone's work environment better and only benefits Adobe. Since it's still well within the first year of any subscription, it may take another 12-18 months before users catch on to just how much they actually lose in terms of freedom with the subscription model.

                              • 12. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                                Like you say time will tell.


                                Loss of freedom? This is software plain and simple it has nothing to do with freedom, it's just software.

                                • 13. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                  [scott] Level 6

                                  And 5 years from now I can still use the software. Can you if you no longer pay subscription fees? Yeah... sure... nothing to do with freedom.

                                  • 14. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                    Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                                    Of course you can! All you have to do is purcahse he use of the Cloud for a month and you can use it.


                                    You don't have to subscribe all you have to do is pay for waht you use.


                                    So even if you do not subscribe you can use the latest version if you purchase a months use.


                                    And as far as the five year thing if your computer goes belly up and the technology of the computer you happen to end up purchasing has changed and you can no longer install your software well there goes our freedom.


                                    You're alking about software nothing more.

                                    • 15. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                      tims_ghost Level 1

                                      You seem to imply that you can just randomly purchase 30 day blocks of usage time scattered about.  So for example, you could pay for January, but not pay in February because you are not going to use it, then pick up again and pay for March, skip April and so on.   I don't think that is Adobes intent.  Am I miss understanding what you are saying?


                                      -From their FAQ
                                      If I decide to stop my membership, will I still be able to use my Creative Suite software and the other components of Creative Cloud?

                                      When you cancel a month-to-month or annual membership purchased directly from Adobe or let a 3- or 12-month prepaid membership purchased from a retailer expire, you will no longer have access to the CS applications, other desktop software, and services that are components of Creative Cloud. However, if you saved your work to your computer, you will continue to have access to those files. You will also have access to the same benefits as a free Creative Cloud member, which include 2GB of storage space (reduced from 20GB), the ability to sync and store your files, access to a free 30-day trial of the desktop software that has not already been installed and provisioned as part of your paid membership, and access to the free level of services included with Creative Cloud.

                                      • 16. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                        tims_ghost Level 1

                                        Well it looks like you actually can, although the monthly is more.  Also found this:


                                        A month-to-month plan provides the flexibility of a short-term commitment that allows you to end your membership at any time. If you decide to restart, simply purchase a new membership without having to reinstall your apps. You will be charged more per month for this flexibility.

                                        • 17. Re: Exclusive update release for Adobe Cloud customers
                                          Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                                          That imo more akin to freedom but it is really just more flexible. After all it is only zoftw0are and nothing more.