22 Replies Latest reply: Sep 6, 2012 9:38 AM by Paul R Stark RSS

    Printer requirements

    Paul R Stark Community Member

      Hi Everyone.

       

      I'm waiting for a quote from a local PostNet Printer who say my 8.5" x 11" would have to be printed on 12" x 18" and trimmed (extra cost). I was under the impression that if sufficient bleed was present, this would be unnecessary. But they say that digital printing (I guess that's all they do) requires 12" x 18" trimmed to have borderless printing.

       

      Is this correct? If so, I'd have to pay extra for the front and back cover at 12" x 18" to get borderless and each inside page would have about 1/8" border all the way around on each page.

       

      Thx.

       

      Paul

        • 1. Re: Printer requirements
          BobLevine CommunityMVP

          Sounds about right to me. If you want full bleed on an 8.5x11 sheet, then the paper will have to be larger for the bleed and then cut to fit.

           

           

           

          Whether that means using stock that’s 12x18 depends on printer but that’s not beyond reasonable. You might find a printer with a larger press that can run them n-up.

           

           

           

          Bob

          • 2. Re: Printer requirements
            Paul R Stark Community Member

            Thanks, Bob.

            • 3. Re: Printer requirements
              Peter Spier CommunityMVP

              It should run just fine on 11 x 17 with a trim, so I don't know why they say 12 x 18 unless they just don't stock 11 x 17 and buy the 12 x 18 in huge quantities to get the cost down.

              • 4. Re: Printer requirements
                BobLevine CommunityMVP

                It makes sense that they might do that. 12x18 would cover a range of different projects and I would imagine the cost between 11x17 and 12x18 would not be all that great.

                 

                 

                 

                Bob

                • 5. Re: Printer requirements
                  Paul R Stark Community Member

                  Right, Peter. I think you're saying they could trim my 11 x 17 full bleed document down to remove the white borders, and that would be fine, although that's an extra expense for the trimming.

                   

                  I didn't know that, while I can create a full bleed document, a digital printer cannot print a full bleed document. That suprised me.

                   

                  By the way, I'm being told that digital printing and digital copying are exactly the same thing. True?

                   

                  Thank you, gentlemen.

                   

                  Paul

                  • 6. Re: Printer requirements
                    Jeffrey_Smith CommunityMVP

                    digital printing is where you have an electronic file > export printer data (postscript, pdf, etc.) > submit data to DFE (digital front end) or RIP (raster image processor) > DFE interprets and rasterizes data > data is imaged on device

                     

                    digital copying is where you have a paper file > scan to raster format > data is imaged on device

                    • 7. Re: Printer requirements
                      Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                      Bob Levine wrote:

                      I would imagine the cost between 11x17 and 12x18 would not be all that great.

                      I guess you never bought 12 x 18 paper in small quantity.

                      • 8. Re: Printer requirements
                        Dov Isaacs Employee Hosts

                        In my personal experience, unless you go to large, commercial paper vendors, reams of 12x18 paper (a.k.a. “tabloid extra”) are exceptionally difficult to find. And when you do find such paper, the choices of weights, surfaces, and colors are exceptionally limited. Of course, given the small quantities that are sold, the prices are fairly high.

                         

                        When commercial printers need 12x18 paper, they typically custom cut from larger sheets.

                         

                        With regards to edge-to-edge printing, there are some digital printers (including inkjet) that claim such capabilities, but the results are usually not that good. You are still better off printing on larger paper, bleeding off the edge, and trimming.

                         

                                  - Dov

                        • 9. Re: Printer requirements
                          Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                          Dov Isaacs wrote:

                           

                          In my personal experience, unless you go to large, commercial paper vendors, reams of 12x18 paper (a.k.a. “tabloid extra”) are exceptionally difficult to find. And when you do find such paper, the choices of weights, surfaces, and colors are exceptionally limited. Of course, given the small quantities that are sold, the prices are fairly high.

                           

                          When commercial printers need 12x18 paper, they typically custom cut from larger sheets.

                          There are quite a few choices out there if you ae buying by the palette, but for a single ream, you're quite right. I know a lot of printers who run Xerox printers buy the paper from Xerox, too (and it's very nice paper, but pricey).

                          • 10. Re: Printer requirements
                            Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                            Paul Stark wrote:

                             

                            Right, Peter. I think you're saying they could trim my 11 x 17 full bleed document down to remove the white borders, and that would be fine, although that's an extra expense for the trimming.

                            I think Dov covered this, but I'm not aware of any commercial machine that will print edge to edge on any page size, so you are looking at the trimmcost no matter what.

                             

                            You said your page was 8.5 x 11, but are you printing a booklet? An 8.5 x 11 two-page spread is 11 x 17, and in that case if it needs to bleed you would need to go to 12 x 18, so maybe that's the explanation.

                            • 11. Re: Printer requirements
                              Paul R Stark Community Member

                              Workbook, not booklet.

                               

                              Thx.

                              • 12. Re: Printer requirements
                                Paul R Stark Community Member

                                Actually, Dov, my Canon Pixma MP830 prints borderless and the result is quite nice on the HP "brochure" glossy paper I'm using. But the ink cost is killing me--along with the coil binding.

                                 

                                Thx.

                                • 13. Re: Printer requirements
                                  Paul R Stark Community Member

                                  Thx, Jeffrey, but Is it true that the difference between digital printing and digital copying is virtually undetectable to the naked eye?

                                  • 14. Re: Printer requirements
                                    Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                    Paul Stark wrote:

                                     

                                    Workbook, not booklet.

                                     

                                    Thx.

                                    How many pages are being printed per side of each sheet?

                                     

                                    Actually, it's probably less expensive to print 2-up on 12 x 18 than it would be 1-up on 11 x 17, so I'll take back pretty much everything I've said here today.

                                    • 15. Re: Printer requirements
                                      Paul R Stark Community Member

                                      All of them. My document is 42 8.5 x 11 pages. Hence, 21 11 x 17 pages. Both sides, which means I'll have to get another two blank pages added.

                                      • 16. Re: Printer requirements
                                        Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                        I don't think you understood my question.

                                         

                                        A stitched book requires folded spreads, which means at least two pages per side on each sheet, and a multiple of 4 pages. Perfect bound or coil bound, especially when printed on digital equipment, can be done using a stacked book block with no folding involved. Page count then can be anything, and you can print multiple copies of the same page on each sheet, so in this case one 12 x 18 stack could be cut apart and trimmed for two full-bleed books.

                                        • 17. Re: Printer requirements
                                          Paul R Stark Community Member

                                          Are you saying that perfect binding or coil binding would be cheaper, therefore, than saddle stiching?

                                          • 18. Re: Printer requirements
                                            Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                            We're talking 11 sheets as a stitched booklet, times the toal number of books in the order. For perfect bound or coil bound you're talking 21 sheets per book, but multiplied times only half the number in the order (printing two-up), so the cost of printing is likely to be pretty much the same. You'd have to ask the printer which binding method would be less expensive.

                                            • 19. Re: Printer requirements
                                              Daniel Flavin Community Member

                                              Not necessarily. Saddle-stitching can be done in a single pass on a single machine - GFST - is our plant description, Gather, Fold, Stitch & Trim are performed in one pass with finished product packaged at the offend. And it is a pretty ubiquitous operation. For finishing, this is the"must have" machine.

                                               

                                              I'm as small an operation as it gets, but we have a Perfect Binder and Hi-speed Spiral as well.

                                               

                                              We charge a premium for Perfect Binding, as few small shops can Perfect Bind in-house. (I'm under the impression that Paul's project is not large run)

                                               

                                              Coil Binding? - Labor intensive, imo.

                                               

                                              Sheet count and usage pretty much dicatates how a job should should be finshed however.

                                              • 20. Re: Printer requirements
                                                Peter Spier CommunityMVP

                                                Yeah, I think stitched is likely the chap choice, too, but if it has to be sent out and the run is short, in house coil binding might be competitive. Lots of labor, though -- the pages will need to be punched/drilled for coiling.

                                                 

                                                Personally, I'd stay away from perfect binding for a workbook. I'd be afraid of the pages falling out after hard use.

                                                • 21. Re: Printer requirements
                                                  Dov Isaacs Employee Hosts

                                                  The Canon Pixma printers as well as comparable Epson Stylus and HP photo inkjet printers are specialty photo printers that certainly can print edge to edge. I believe that they achieve this by actually extending the printing artificially over the edge of the paper a miniscule amount to simulate bleed but not enough to gum up the works of the device itself.

                                                   

                                                  As you indicated, the ink expense of these devices (as well as speed) obviates their use for the purpose you described in your original posting.

                                                   

                                                            - Dov

                                                  • 22. Re: Printer requirements
                                                    Paul R Stark Community Member

                                                    Exactly. I filled a $200 order for 13 workbooks. I estimate I used $175 in ink, $39 for coil binding, and $11 for shipping, $36 for glossy paper. Result - $61 loss.