1 2 Previous Next 70 Replies Latest reply on Sep 18, 2012 5:21 PM by the_wine_snob Go to original post
      • 40. Re: documentary
        the_wine_snob Level 9



        Those "certification courses" sound like a great way to go.


        Good luck,



        • 41. Re: documentary
          Level 4

          Yeah, Bill... the certification things are 4 saturdays for each one...and there's 2 of them..one for the studio cameras ( sd ) and lighting etc ( use of stage ), and the other for FCP editing suites , another 4 saturdays... after that you can use the stuff free.. and the certification courses are about $25 each I think...it's all basically 'free' via the agreement with local cable provider for the public access stuff ( cable commission ). A pretty cool deal ...I'm surprised more people haven't used it to produce shows ( talk shows, sitcoms , etc ).... but obviously that comes down to money for the talent and hair, makeup, operators, etc...regardless of the studio being available.  And public access I guess equals no commercials ??  But still...maybe through grants or something that kinda thing can get done.


          Anyway, I might start the first course around November when winter sets in around here.

          • 42. Re: documentary
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            Anyway, I might start the first course around November when winter sets in around here.

            Provided that they have heat, sounds like a good way to spend a Saturday.


            Not sure how many grants might be available in this day and age, but I would check that sourse out too. Might be some $'s, just waiting for a video production?


            Good luck,



            • 43. Re: documentary
              Level 4

              I'm not counting on any 'help' re: grant or whatever for this particular documentary I am working on now. But will certainly think about future "productions" etc and how grants etc might fit into that.

              Last night I had a semi - brain storm about this documentary.

              Mainly the brainstorm is to do it in "chapters" ( in a way like " acts " ).

              4 chapters ( or acts ).

              The continuity would be ( thread and theme ) focusing on the first settler and his reasons for homesteading...and then compare those reasons and his experiences ( success vs failures ) with everyone else that came out afterward....


              I haven't got it figured out entirely at all, but am getting closer I think to the how to do something unique and 'new' , be all inclusive ( business and humanities ).


              It's been very challenging to think about how to do this while reading up on the facts etc.  How to tell a "story" that is real and interesting, almost like an adventure... but include all the things that happened and all the various peoples and events that shaped the history.  Plus end it at the current state of affairs, and tie that in with the past... and make a statement about where it's at now.


              Luckily I know enough about film making to sort of stay "real " about what I can do ( materials to work with ) but at the same time push it to the limit regarding the story... tell the best story I can within the restraints of budget and materials available.


              You're no stranger to this push and pull thing.... what you got vs what you want....like more horses near the white fence...know what I mean ?

              • 44. Re: documentary
                the_wine_snob Level 9



                In general terms, what IS the history of Mound, MN?


                I would guess that Native Americans were at least among the first settlers.


                Any Viking exploration in the area? I can just see a ghost Viking dragon boat, rising from the lake in the mist...


                What brought more contemporary settlers there?


                Were they an agrarian culture, or did they perhaps open up a lumber mill, or other industry?


                Cannot recall, but did the railroad play any role in the development? Didn't the downtown move to go to where the railroad came through?


                Often, the "why" an area developed is worth mentioning. Take Tucumcari, NM for instance. It was once a work town, for the railroad and the building of a dam, but became a recreational town, and motels sprang up everywhere. It has also been used (or at least its environs have) for several motion pictures. Being on old Rt. 66 did not hurt either. Stuff like that.


                As this is the 100th Anniversary of Mound, there should be a wealth of historical material, and people, who are interested in such.


                Just thinking,



                • 45. Re: documentary
                  KJerryK MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                  See http://minnesotahistory.net/?p=1644 for more on mounds


                  I bet you thought I was kidding about the burial sites

                  • 46. Re: documentary
                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                    Oh no, I believed you completely.


                    Though not on the MS Gulf Coast, there were many Native American burial mounds, just up-state from where I grew up. As, with the exception of the MS banks of the Mississippi River, there are few geographical features in the state, those mounds were a glaring exception.


                    Somewhere (and obviously due to Rod's post), I seem to recall that archeologist place the origin of the mounds to before the Native American tribes, thought to be indigenous to the region, and by maybe 1,000 years. Sort of like the Native Americans in Arizona. There was a "lost tribe," the Ho`hokam, who predated the Navajo, the Zuni and others, but disappeared from the area, maybe 600 years before they arrived. For decades, many dismissed the existence of the Ho`hokam, until a surveyor found their irrigation canals.The term "hokam" was used to denote "bunk." Well, not so. Like the Anasazi for Colorado, they were there, but disappeared, prior to what most think of as the indigenous Native American tribes, like the Arapaho, and Plains. Mesa Verde is a great example of their culture.


                    Also, as Lake Minnetonka was possibly a glacial moraine, I could imagine even earlier tribes, that were there, before the last Ice Age, and perhaps left the area, as the glaciers came down. I would anticipate that most of their artifacts were scoured from the land. I'll let Rod trace human life in the area back to whenever.



                    • 47. Re: documentary
                      Level 4

                      from what I've read and been told etc... the mounds are indeed pre-dating the Dakota...but some mounds had Dakato at the tops of the mounds as well... Like they 'added' to the more ancient mounds with their own deceased. The differences are apparently seen by the way they were arranged and the artifacts that accompany them, and the methods ( some cremated, some not etc ).


                      I have a feeling that some of this had to do with the seasons ( hard to dig into ice and snow in winter to bury people etc ).


                      There's no sign of human life before the last glacier about 10,000 years ago ( there were several glacial periods ). The giant inland "sea" that used to be around in north america kinda dried up and got drained etc in different areas at different times...


                      So for example you can find fish fossils in wyoming that are 3 million years old, which are about the YOUNGEST of that sea.


                      Here in MN. The bedrock at the lower right portion of state is the oldest bedrock ( no moraine ). That's the only portion of the state that wasn't effected by the glacial periods known about.  I think the glacial periods are pretty spread out over a lot of time, the earliest being maybe millions of years ago... the last one 10,000 years ago.


                      There's been some conjecture that the american indians came across the bering sea area about 10,000 years ago ( theory contested by some of the indians - primarily due to their spiritual beliefs and creation beliefs )


                      Regardless there is no known connection between the ancient mounds ( mound builders ) and Dakota.


                      Lake Minnetonka was formed by giant ice cubes ( glacier pieces ) left behind, eventually melting...and finally creating minnehaha creek, which hooks up with the mississippi and populated the lake with fish.


                      two glacier 'tongues' came into lake minnetonka area ( later one probably riding up 'over' the earlier one ).


                      all these glaciers brought different soils and sediment etc..and are color coded on maps the USGS has.


                      The really cool man I spoke to at the USGS this past week explained a lot to me and is willing to go on camera for interview in documentary.. which is my first real " interview" lined up to do with someone with exceptional credentials, and he is really enthusiastic and speaks well, can speak to laymen about complex issues and so on.  It's the first 'breakthrough' for me in terms of actually having a piece of the documentary "done".


                      The first euro - american settlers ( non indian ) for some weird reason didn't know about this place for a really long time despite being only 20 miles from mississippi river, St Paul, Fort Snelling etc.  In fact it wasn't long after it was getting settled when the Dakota uprising occurred a little to the west in 1862.



                      • 48. Re: documentary
                        Level 4

                        Before the actual "settlers" came to lake minnetonka area other stuff was going on.


                        When MN. was a territory it already was surveyed by the USGS.. and basically everything west of the mississippi was sioux ( dakota ) before a treaty opened the land west of the mississippi to homesteading. They were surveyed districts ( 6 sq miles ) in 36 sections, each section being 1 sq mi. Sections were divided in half and quarter sections.

                        A quarter section is 160 acres.

                        So each district has 144 "farms" of 160 acres each.


                        These surveys are Plats and look like this:




                        Anyway, before this happened there were french fur traders who traveled and worked with indians ( guides etc ). Most of that stuff happened along river routes and lakes ( great lakes and rivers with access to the great lakes, mississippi etc ). Meantime the former colonies were pushing indians to the west and as those indians traveled west they often displaced the indians that were in the west already, pushing THEM further west or north into canada etc.


                        There's very little info about fur traders and that sort of activity in this particular area, prior to the sioux treaty, which opened the land west of the mississippi to surveys and homesteading etc.


                        once this place started to get settlers the next big thing to really open it up was the railroad ( great northern ).


                        I'm getting the basic ideas and perspectives of the history into my head with a bunch of reading etc. The local historical societies and museums have mostly info about the period just before the railroad and after that...up to the present day.


                        Oh NOOOOOOOOO... the classical station just started playing "bolero".... had to turn off the radio....

                        I don't understand why someone doesn't just break that record and throw it into the garbage can !



                        • 49. Re: documentary
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          I can well imagine that with the streams, feeding into the lakes, that beaver would have been plentiful, and as about that time, fur felt hats were the rage in Europe, fur-trappers would be swarming all over the area.


                          However, it's easy to assign attributes, and common history to one area, based solely on similarities to another, like WY, or ID, to MN. Things might well have been different, and beyond my knowledge.


                          Good luck,



                          • 50. Re: documentary
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            Somewhere, I had run across the general timeline on the Native Americans in the area, but the "building atop" was new to me.

                            from what I've read and been told etc... the mounds are indeed pre-dating the Dakota...but some mounds had Dakato at the tops of the mounds as well... Like they 'added' to the more ancient mounds with their own deceased. The differences are apparently seen by the way they were arranged and the artifacts that accompany them, and the methods ( some cremated, some not etc ).

                            Kind of like the "new owners" adding a penthouse, atop an existing building. I would puzzle over how the Dakota knew the purpose of those existing mounds, as there was no coincidence with both cultures? It's easy, when it's just the linear development of ONE culture, like Native Hawai`ians, where the "talk stories" of the heiaus were passed along. Think about it. The Dakota came to a new land/place, found the mounds, and knew what they were. They then just "added-on" to the existing mounds. How did they know?



                            • 51. Re: documentary
                              Level 4

                              Some of the stuff I've read has been kinda like speed reading...to get the "gist" of whats up.

                              The Univ of MN. had some documents available online about archeological studies of the mounds in MN.


                              It has to be remembered that these 'archeological' studies by professionals actually occurred fairly 'late' in history. Most of the mounds by that time had already been partially excavated or destroyed etc. by settlers and tourists.


                              An unfortunate fact is that during the heyday of lake minnetonka ( with the large hotels and tourist trade ....it was basically the hamptons of the midwest ...or 'long branch, NJ' of the midwest )... many hotels and tourist businesses actually advertised that people could "explore the mounds"...

                              Basically this means tourists were encouraged to dig into the mounds looking for artifacts they could bring home with them.


                              So real archeological 'studies' came later on and there were already many mounds so disturbed there was no way to come to accurate and scientific conclusions....


                              However, some mounds had not been found yet by the settlers and most of the mounds were apparently along the banks of the Crow River ( just north of lake minnetonka ) for this particular "area".  If you look at the map you'll see the crow meets the st croix and the mississippi etc in such a way that basic travel using rivers ( woods had no roads at that time ) would make it a nice way for indians to travel and have camps and their own settlements etc...


                              So it happens that some of the 'mound builders' actually built those mounds on top of 'settlements'... under the mounds it becomes plain that people actually 'lived' there...as proven by the artifacts on various levels etc.


                              This would include arrow heads and pottery and stuff like that.


                              So the Dakota, not being idiots, would see that someone 'lived' or hunted or something near some of the mounds. That would lead to checking out the mounds themselves, and using them for their own purposes etc.  Over time, the rivers themselves often changed 'course' or changed in terms of how wide they are and so on...

                              That too would probably reveal over time some mound activity etc to the Dakota.


                              As an added note of interest....


                              The Dakota consider the lake Mille Lacs their ancestral "birth place"...but when other indians got forced westward they got chased out of there. Now other indians live there instead. They don't particularly like each other so much even today cause of that stuff. I wrote to the indian reservation at Mille Lacs asking for help with history of Dakota and they basically said, " We have nothing to do with those people."





                              • 52. Re: documentary
                                Level 4

                                concerning the indian movement into mille lacs lake by newcomer indians...making the Dakota move out...


                                It should be remembered that during this time in the U.S. various things were going on pretty fast. Much of the south was owned by the French until the Louisiana Purchase. The Spanish had Mexico until their revolution, and Texas etc was sorta being settled after that initial failure of Austin's original deal with the Spanish ( in west Texas ). Florida had been Spanish. The English also were fighting with the Spanish and French over control and so on of parts of this part of North America.


                                There were lots of things going on all over the place.


                                Then there was the civil war as if things weren't tough enough for a new 'nation'.


                                I'm just focusing on Mound on Lake Minnetonka...or else this documentary would be too large a chunk of meat for me to chew on.


                                My mom suggested to me when I was young not to try to put a piece of food bigger than my head into my mouth, so I am sticking with that advice.



                                • 53. Re: documentary
                                  Mitchell Lopez Level 1

                                  Maybe you can get Kevin Costner to star in your movie and make the movie 6 hours long.


                                  You could show him as a civil war vet who wants to be on the frontier, away from civilization.  He goes to Mound and turns rogue and finds how peaceful life is on the prairie with the native population. 


                                  I don’t think this concept has been done.


                                  If you do it, you probably will get rich from the residuals, when it is shown on TV every other week.

                                  • 54. Re: documentary
                                    Level 4


                                    Maybe you can get Kevin Costner to star in your movie and make the movie 6 hours long.



                                    that reminds me...maybe bolero has finally finished playing on the classical station and I can turn it back on ???


                                    I think it can't possibly be longer than 6 hours long, though it feels like that as soon as I hear the first note.



                                    • 55. Re: documentary
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      So the Dakota, not being idiots, would see that someone 'lived' or hunted or something near some of the mounds. That would lead to checking out the mounds themselves, and using them for their own purposes etc. 

                                      That is basically what happened in and around Phoenix. Jack Swilling looked down upon the valley, and became convinced that he saw a network of canals, though they had partially filled in, and had become overgrown over centuries. He investigate further, and charted those "canals," discovering that they WERE canals, and that they had been constructed to carry water from the Rio Salado, and disperse it all around the valley. The concept of the Central Arizona Project was born, and the canals were re-dug. Their grades were still almost perfect. The local Native American population knew nothing of the canals, but speculated that they had been constructed by an earlier, long-gone tribe, referred to as the Hohokam. Nothing was known of the Hohokam, except for myth. Well, the myth turned out to be historical fact. The story reminds me a bit of the Nazca Plain in Peru, where there are pieces of artwork, that can only be appreciated from a higher elevation, or the air. It took a visual survey from a peak, to even see the canals.



                                      • 56. Re: documentary
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9



                                        Maybe the title could be, Dances with Wolverines?


                                        As a plot twist, Costner could build the first "tourist destination" in Mound, after he sees dead people, who tell him to "build it... "


                                        Yeah, you might be onto something there.



                                        • 57. Re: documentary
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          That reminds me...maybe bolero has finally finished playing on the classical station and I can turn it back on ???

                                          What, you are not a fan of Maurice Ravel? Maybe you need to hear Wendy Carlos' version to gain an appreciation?



                                          • 58. Re: documentary
                                            Level 4

                                            now you're cookin Bill...think big...get creative...wolverines !  build it and they will come !


                                            I'm thinking "racing wolverines with some serious race cars, nutty music from the young generation ( full of high power angst ), and lots of yoodles and popcorn while watching it on the big screen in the living room !


                                            But just to think about this for a beer thirty minute...( ITS BEER THIRTY YIPEE ! )


                                            I need some "hook" or special perspective about all this stuff that basically weaves a thread of continuity and 'interest' ( and maybe what you would call 'human adventure' ) in this documentary.


                                            Facts are very cool... aerial shots are very cool.

                                            Archeology is very cool.


                                            But to tell a " story " is even MORE cool... cause you use all the elements of facts and individual exprience, and even huge events like " wars" and " economic depressions" and you turn that into a "story" about human beings that the audience can relate to.


                                            My feeling is that when the audience relates to people they can love and hate and feel sorry for and so on... the more that audience can compare " what we call history " to their own lives now.  That's what I want to do .


                                            It's fun thinking about this stuff and planning to tell the story.






                                            it is sorta like saying " blackberry farm, a way of life "....it tells a story instead of just facts...and it's related to the beauty and human interest in why it's cool to enjoy the place ...

                                            " a way of life" is the hook...or the perspective.

                                            • 59. Re: documentary
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              OK, here's the hook. You tell the story from the POV perspective of a wolverine. Maybe suit him up with a "critter cam," for some unscripted shots?



                                              • 60. Re: documentary
                                                Level 4

                                                things aren't confusing enough for me right now , coming up with a "story line" etc...dealing with fossils of tribolites and early life on earth ....up the present day of Mound...and now you introduce Walter Carlos ( aka Wendy Carlos ) and transgender stuff ?


                                                you warthog !




                                                is it wine thirty ? IS IS BEER THIRTY ...so I hope it is wine thirty there too...hehe...you crack me up

                                                • 61. Re: documentary
                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                  Hey, just trying to "broaden" your horizons. Got to get into different types of music man!



                                                  • 62. Re: documentary
                                                    Level 4

                                                    hehe... okay...you're right...no sense being closed off to new stuff...



                                                    • 63. Re: documentary
                                                      Level 4

                                                      I played tourist this morning and drove from Mound to Excelsior ( from middle 'west' side of lake to south east sort of lake area ). Was a nice drive but people kept getting close to me ( cars behind me ) cause I wanted to go slow and "sight see "..and they apparently had a life to live etc. It reminded me of how perhaps the "zonies" effect traffic in San Diego according to some rumors here.

                                                      Sooo, it happens that after the big heyday of hotels and tourists bit the dust here in the early 20's some boats that used to serve the lake ( from RR depots to hotels etc ) got busted up and sunk in the deep parts of lake ( scuttled ). Then someone had the great idea to send down some divers and bring one of them back up and make it a new tourist attraction. Now it goes from Excelsior to Wyzeta and back and forth more or less.




                                                      There's some tourist stuff going on near this dock, restaurants and that sort of thing...and it's pretty nice.


                                                      So then I moseyed over to where the 'Minneapolis and St. Louis RR ' had some track....( close to this boat dock ). This got confusing to me cause I don't know enough about what's up with that RR. The FIRST RR to the lake was further north ( Great Northern ) from Minneapolis to Wyzeta... built by James Hill ( your typical RR tycoon apparently ).  So Mr. Choo Choo ( see "Once Upon A Time In America " ) was originally up in the northern part of the lake. And this other RR later on came to Excelsior ( which also had a cool amusement park kinda like Coney Island ! ...but without that really scary roller coaster that is in Coney Island ...or Nathans ).


                                                      I think stopping at this point is a really good idea...







                                                      • 64. Re: documentary
                                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                        During the heyday of RR tourism, there were many spur lines built to various attractions. In New Orleans, they had Smoky Mary: http://pontchartrain.net/491284


                                                        After those glory days, many of the spur routes were dismantled for scrap, and especially during WWII, when steel and iron were cherished commodities. Some, however remain, or have been reclaimed, and operate as "excursion" RR's.


                                                        Now, that last shot is a real gem! Normally, when a RR line (spur or not) ends, they put a "deadman" in place. Hope that the engineer sees that stop sign in time...


                                                        Wow, Lake Minnetonka is a bigger deal, than I imagined. I know that you have posted some topo-maps, and I've spent a bit of time on Google, but I guess that I just never had the full grasp of things up there.


                                                        Now, I do not want to hear of you putting AZ plates on your car, and starting an anti-Zonie movement up there too. Of course Mitchell would have great fun, if you did.


                                                        Enjoy. Seems like a very cool place.



                                                        • 65. Re: documentary
                                                          Level 4

                                                          hehe...Smoky Mary. Yep..very similar sorta stuff up here with spurs that serviced various tourist and lumber and other business. Bit the dust pretty much with invention of auto, graded roads for trucking, changes in economy and businesses etc.


                                                          That photo above of RR ending at excelsior Blvd....to the left is a fine gravel bed "trail" used for bicycle trail ( mostly hybrid bikes ) and joggers etc. So the service road for the RR got turned into a bike trail basically. Same is in Mound, but in Mound they tore up the tracks and paved the trail. It's real nice...and runs along the lake shore in spots, through woods in other areas...and goes for a pretty long distance if you like biking for exercise. Roller skating is also popular on the bike paved bike trails. Plus dog walking etc. It's pretty cool.


                                                          But anyway, that stop sign is for the bicycles. I was surprised to see the steel is still down and also ( you cant see this in photo ) there are all the poles with electriic powrer and also an 'over the tracks' electric wire ( for electric trains or trolly or something ). Also nearby was a posted notice that the " 'Hennepin County Railroad Authority' property ends here " ( describing more or less the 'line' the poles made along the track ).


                                                          One thing I've noticed about the "history' stuff that exists around here... is that it isn't really "coherent". It hasn't been recorded and presented in a way that makes it easy to understand what happened and when that happened...and why.  I think this is simply because there are various historical societies and books etc and they all have slightly different interests.


                                                          That is one of the challenges for me, to do doc on mound...is not to stray too far off subject but at same time include the lake history so mound isnt in a sort of vacume...and not just the lake, but inventions, cultural changes ( music, photography, art ), state and national events , the list is endless.


                                                          Keeps me busy thinking and grinding my teeth at night




                                                          • 66. Re: documentary
                                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                            Old RR grades can be very useful indeed. In Colorado, we had several in the High Country. After the tracks were torn out, a few became 4-wheel drive roads (actually, as the % of grade was low, and even with narrow-gauge, the curves fairly gentle, one did not really need 4-wheel, so long as the auto had clearance for the rocks, that had fallen onto the pass). Hagerman Pass was one such neat "road." Also, all along those, were old structures, such as water towers, etc., to view and explore. Mountain bikers discovered them early on, and the "invention" of the mountain bike came to be to ride such trails outside of Crested Butte.


                                                            Being a RR buff, I always find the old right-of-ways, and grades interesting. The histories of those old RR lines are the stuff of coffee table books, and one could find hundreds at the Colorado RR Museum in Golden, CO (just down from Coors!). I have many, though one of my Bulldogs did chew on a few.


                                                            I understand the fragmentation of the historical societies' focus. The RR folk are anal about all things RR, while the architectural folk have a different subject. Then, you'll get another group, that wants to chronicle the china pattern for every old resort. Getting them together is worse than herding cats. Now, if you can get them together for a study on the china patterns of a RR depot, you might get consensus. That is kind of what happened with La Posada in Winslow, AZ: http://www.laposada.org/. When they DO get focused, great things can come about.


                                                            Good luck, and most of all, ENJOY!



                                                            • 67. Re: documentary
                                                              Level 4

                                                              Yeah, I've been in touch with a lot of people so far and plan on talking to more soon...and keep getting my head around this thing...so I can start the outline etc.

                                                              The purpose is to pull all these different perspectives and agendas etc together so its more coherent.


                                                              But I'm also reading some fiction at night to help me sleep ( silly fiction... like comic books without pictures ...you make the pictures in your own head ).

                                                              I wonder what it was like to be a caveman , before " pictures" existed. It musta been weird.

                                                              • 68. Re: documentary
                                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                Well, based on some of the cave drawings, and petroglyphs, "pictures" have been around for a bit.


                                                                Now, one person, with whom you must speak, before you do that much of the script is the Log Lady: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_Lady


                                                                I think that before she moved to the Pacific Northwest, she had a cabin on Lake Minnetonka?



                                                                • 69. Re: documentary
                                                                  Level 4

                                                                  I'm not so sure anyone reading this thread will get the big picture about 'art' if we continue on this road to snakes and warthogs and log ladies. etc.... not for nothin, but at some point it's nice to actually contribute to good ideas and forsake the jokes.

                                                                  Then again, if it's beer thirty and yoodles are being thrown by the club members at each other, it time for snakes etc...so I am not gonna make any big 'value' judgement here...  after all, in the 'drones club' of bertie wooster fame, it wasn't unusual to see pieces of bread thrown at the eldest members after " Ascot" race day.



                                                                  • 70. Re: documentary
                                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                    You make a good point. We need a "Scary Snakes, Log Lady and Big Green Frog" Discussion! http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1068183?tstart=0



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