1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply: Sep 26, 2012 3:53 AM by Pierre Devereux RSS

    Good Workflow or Insane idea?

    Pierre Devereux Community Member

      Hi,

       

      I have a workflow related question that I hope can be answered by those with a lot more experience than me....

       

      The project we are busy with consists of a lot of post work for every shot we do (pretty much all of them). Here is a quick run down again:

       

      1) We shoot miniature characters against a green screen at 50fps

      2) Using the suggestion from Rick Gerard (found here: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4654521#4654521) I import the footage and render out a TIFF sequence as the first step. This sequence is then used as the base for all other work

       

      From this point, there are many, many things that need to be done, and this brings me to my question - I need to:

       

      1) Slow down the sequence more using Twixtor

      2) Create a stabalized pre-comp for adding facial effects (mouth movements and voice synching)

      3) Key the sequence for future compositing into background sets

      4) Add subtle body movements if the scene requires it and we could not capture them during the shoot

      5) Add scene specific special effects (be it an explosion or a laser fight....whatever!)

      6) Create final composition for export to the editing program (probably Premier)

       

      All of this detail, to come to my question - Does it make more sense to render out a TIFF sequence at each of the above steps, or should I try to stack as many of the effects in one single project/layer as I can. I am busy investigating the best workflow options for a project of this kind. I am concerend that too many intermidiate renders might cause quality loss, however, if i render out TIFF sequences, there should be no degradation right?

       

      Anyway, if I can get any feedback on experience out there, I would appreciate it, and it will help point me in the direction of the workflow that would suit me best.

       

      Thank guys - Have a great weekend

       

      Pierre

        • 1. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
          Mylenium CommunityMVP

          You should do the keying, stabilization and slowdowns as one step, the rest as another. Since one is a technical thing and the other fall more into the creative realm, different workflows based on the footage would be necessary and different people work on it. It's usually better if one person covers the same aspects on all shots so at least if e.g. a green screen shot is messed up, it is consistent and another person can develop a fix that would work on all shots. That would also come in handy if you need to hand off stuff to otehr facilities or call in freelancers that each may have their own approach to such matetrs....

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
            Pierre Devereux Community Member

            Thanks man,

             

            Your input is always appreciated. HOWEVER.....

             

            This assumes that there are more than one person doing the work!

             

            At the moment, I am the only one working on the footage from capture, through to Premier. It is a lot, I know, but we are just starting out, so there will be more people shortly - so I think that is good advice. Even though I am the only one for now, I will split the workflow as suggested.

             

            After the initial tests, I am assuming it would be in the following order:

             

            1) Slowdown

            2) Stabalize

            3) Keying

             

            Am I still correct in saying that once those are done, the best is to render it our as a TIFF sequence to prevent any image degradation?

             

            Thank you

            • 3. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
              Pierre Devereux Community Member

              Hi,

               

              I am noticing, that I cannot use Twixtor to slow the footage down, then attempt to create the stabalized precomp (using Mocha import at least). Am I correct in saying then, that I would need to do the initial 50% slow down and TIFF export, then add the twixtor effect and render that out in a TIFF sequence before i do the stabalizing and keying?

               

              Thank you

              • 4. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                Dave LaRonde Community Member

                1) We shoot miniature characters against a green screen at 50fps

                 

                Unless those miniature characters are animated themselves via hydraulics or air or electric motors or something, why are you shooting at 50fps?  Why aren't you shooting stop-frame animation?

                 

                The workflow would suggest that you're trying to do Wallace and Gromit - style animation, but sidestepping the effort it takes in planning to do it properly.  Am I incorrect?  Can you clarify what you're trying to accomplish in the end?

                • 5. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                  Pierre Devereux Community Member

                  Hi Dave,

                   

                  I am afraid I am still too new to know for sure if you are completely incorrect :-) - and if we are missing planning steps, I am really grateful to hear abouth them and will invest the effort to do it properly.

                   

                  This is what we invision:

                   

                  We have small pewter characters, lets say around two hand lenghts. They have joint skeletons and can move pretty realistically. The movements we want to incorporate range from minimal movement to crazy motion. We are trying something that we believe is pretty new (motion-wise) and without saying too much about how we are moving them yet, one of the movement types is done via large springs attached at certain places to the characters themselves. These springs are simply held, and the natural hand shakes travel into the character and give them a pretty nice "Natural" standing movement - no one stands truly still, we always move, even when standing still. - this is the feel we want to introduce to the characters.

                   

                  If i shoot at 50FPS (which is the maximum of the camera we have, this becomes half speed at 25FPS) and then slightly more with twixtor, the outcome is a very pleasing, extremely slight and barely noticeable "Life like" standing motion.

                   

                  So, using Ricks suggestion, i get an initial TIFF sequence of half speed footage - the trick for me, is where to go from here. I will need to slow the footage down before adding effects (specifically mouth movements) as slowing it later will obviously change the already added movements.

                   

                  So it is a workflow query I would think - and one that will come with time and practice - it is a point in the right direction i need (or a shove possibly) - Mylenium gave the suggestion to keep tech work and creative work seperate - I like that.

                   

                  So for now, I am assuming

                   

                  1) Shoot and render TIFF

                  2) Twixtor for speed change and then render TIFFS again - to give me a standard, steady starting point footage

                  3) Stabalized precomposition for added face movemets later

                  4) keying work for greenscreen

                   

                  from this point, I am still wondering if i render this out as TIFFS again to pull into a new project/composition to do the special effects and background plate compositions, or as a quicktime clip (animation codec or another lossless one)

                   

                  Once all this is done, I will render out to a form that can go to Premier and viola the editing team can take over :-)

                   

                  Once again, if i have this completely backwards - i would love to know.

                   

                  Thanks to everyone for their input.

                  • 6. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                    Dave LaRonde Community Member

                    We have small pewter characters, lets say around two hand lenghts. They have joint skeletons and can move pretty realistically. The movements we want to incorporate range from minimal movement to crazy motion. We are trying something that we believe is pretty new (motion-wise) and without saying too much about how we are moving them yet, one of the movement types is done via large springs attached at certain places to the characters themselves. These springs are simply held, and the natural hand shakes travel into the character and give them a pretty nice "Natural" standing movement - no one stands truly still, we always move, even when standing still. - this is the feel we want to introduce to the characters.

                     

                    If i shoot at 50FPS (which is the maximum of the camera we have, this becomes half speed at 25FPS) and then slightly more with twixtor, the outcome is a very pleasing, extremely slight and barely noticeable "Life like" standing motion.

                     

                    Far be it from me to pry about trade secrets. 

                     

                    From your description, it would seen that a combination of stop-motion and in-camera animation would do the trick.  A rig to hold the springs back would let you control the too-fast movement caused by hands without having to resort to slo-mo... until you pop the springs, of course.

                    • 7. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                      Pierre Devereux Community Member

                       

                       

                      I have been in the film industry for only 7 months now, I am terrified about what I am supposed to say online and what not! currently our trade secrets are prestic and sellotape!

                       

                      The rig is a good idea, Ill ask the team to look into it. I think you are right, but any stills, are planned for "seated" scenes - where a little after effects - masks and layers allow me to move a finger here, a foot there - anything more than that, we want to do in front of the camera - I am taking your previous advice seriously - "It can be fixed in post" is not a good idea! So whatever slight movement we can introduce, and edit easily, thats the way we want to go.

                       

                      As for the spring breaking - I tried to convince them to buy Slinky Springs - but they know me too well, they would have to tear me away from the stairs then!

                       

                      so, until then, i guess ill take it one challange at a time.

                       

                      Pierre

                      • 8. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                        Pierre Devereux Community Member

                        Sorry Dave,

                         

                        Assuming I can continue on in the way i think I can, is it suggested that intermidiate renders are TIFF sequences to keep best quality? Or is it ok to use one of the lossless quicktime codecs?

                         

                        I am also currently battling the bright gamma shift I am reading so much about - but thats another story...

                         

                         

                        Pierre

                        • 9. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                          Dave LaRonde Community Member

                          Tiff's are okay for intrermediate renders.  I'd use PNG's, but that's just me.

                          • 10. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                            Pierre Devereux Community Member

                            Hi Dave,

                             

                            I did some reading up on Tiff vs PNG. I will go with PNG next week and so, take your advice. Thanks for that.

                             

                            Pierre

                            • 11. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                              Andrew Yoole CommunityMVP

                              There are always exceptions, but as a general rule:  Key first!

                               

                              Your footage will always be at it's most prisitine when it has been untouched by other processes.  Once you start fooling with timing and stabilising, you potentially blur or merge pixels around your key edges, reducing the key quality. 

                               

                              Personally, and for the same reasons, I would probably stabilise in the next step.  Twixtor may change some pixels, potentially affecting stabilisation accuracy.  Leave Twixtor till after the stabilise, unless there's a pressing reason to do otherwise.

                              • 12. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                Hi Andrew,

                                 

                                As obvious as that should have been to me, I only thought about it after reading your comments! I still have a lot to learn! Really glad to have the help of the forum to turn to.

                                 

                                Right - So thats what I'll do:

                                 

                                Key

                                Stabalize

                                Twixtor

                                 

                                Render

                                 

                                Composition work.

                                 

                                Ill feedback on what works, and who knows - maybe I'll be allowed to post a pic? :-)

                                 

                                Thanks guys,

                                 

                                as always - greatly appreciated.

                                 

                                Pierre

                                • 13. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                  Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                  Hi Andrew,

                                   

                                  I have been running through a few tests here at the office, but I am still not finding (in my mind) the best way to do this. The final outcome, is slightly moving, talking characters, the steps were - Filming, Keying, Stabalizing and finally adding the mouth (with Auto LipSynch).

                                   

                                  I did the tests:

                                   

                                  1) Filmed

                                  2) Rendered 50% speed PNG files

                                  3) Keyed

                                   

                                  so far so good

                                   

                                  Now I need to create the stabalized Precomp so I can add the mouth - the problem is, I want to slow the footage down by a further 50% - I cant shoot faster with the camera we are using, so that is why Twixtor seems my best option. If I stabalize at this point, I end up with a composition that is 50% too short and after Twixtor, the voices would be crazy too. So that is my dilemma, and the only solution I can see, is to use Twixtor on the keyed footage, and once it is running at the correct speed, I then render out a PNG sequence for stabalizing and adding the correct speed voices etc.

                                   

                                  Is this making any sense, or am I over complicating, something that should be really simple?

                                   

                                  Thank you

                                   

                                  Pierre

                                  • 14. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                    Rick Gerard CommunityMVP

                                    An image sequence is the same as a video. Changing when you convert from video to an image sequence won't effect stabilizing one bit. It also will not change the way Twixtor handles the footage at all.

                                     

                                    I'd get the footage stabilized first, then key, then slow it down to the final speed, then do the rest of your compositing. Motion blur from a really shaky camera may mean that you need to key first, then stabilize, then slow down.

                                     

                                    If your footage is highly compressed I'd add a preliminary step of converting the footage to a 10 bit (minimum) production coded before I did anything else, especially keying.

                                    • 15. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                      Andrew Yoole CommunityMVP

                                      I'm not sure I understand the problem.  Surely you add the mouth in the final step, as it's animated and you can adjust the speed however you want it.

                                       

                                      I don't see why you cant:

                                       

                                      • Key

                                      • Stabilize

                                      • Re-time

                                      • Animate mouth

                                       

                                      or am I missing something?

                                      • 16. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                        Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                        Hi guys,

                                         

                                        I think I might have a fundemental misunderstanding how the stabalizing and the mouth animation works :-)

                                         

                                        I am using MochaImport for the stabalizing and Lip-Synch for the mouth. When I watched the MochaImport tutorial, the final product has two layers - one original, and the other is the stabalized precomp. (tutorial located here: http://ae.tutsplus.com/tutorials/workflow/a-look-at-how-to-use-auto-lip-sync/ )

                                         

                                        The mouth needs to be added to the stabalized composition (at least that is what I am assuming) and so needs to be done at this point. So if Twixtor is added next - we have a mouth and voice speed problem.

                                         

                                        After sitting down and trying to go through this logically (and in my mind, thats a bad thing!!  )  I get:

                                         

                                        In first Comp:  Shoot, import and render out PNG

                                        In second Comp: Key, precompose, apply twixtor render out PNG

                                        In third Comp: Stabalize with MochaImport, Add mouth and voice with AE Auto Lip-Synch, render out PNG

                                        In final comp: Compositing work - Background and effects/colouring.

                                         

                                        Does that make sense? I am worried that, due to my lack of knowledge in stabalizing etc, I am adding way too many uneeded steps here.

                                         

                                        Thank you

                                         

                                        Pierre

                                        • 17. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                          Dave LaRonde Community Member

                                          You can key in the first comp.  You won't gain anything by keying in the second comp.  In the second comp, you can stabilize the footage & precomp, then apply Twixtor.  In the third comp, you ought to be able to accomplish everything else.  No fourth (final) comp necessary.

                                          • 18. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                            Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                            Hi Dave,

                                             

                                            That does make sense! Thanks - Tell me though - does it make sense to you, to split the second and third Comp as  did above, (without the keying now) to seperate the processing involved with Twixtor and the Addition of the mouth?

                                             

                                            Pierre

                                            • 19. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                              Dave LaRonde Community Member

                                              In my model, you use Twixtor in the second comp -- NOT the third.  So you're okay.

                                              • 20. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                Rick Gerard CommunityMVP
                                                In first Comp:  Shoot, import and render out PNG

                                                 

                                                Just make sure you up the color depth. Change your first project to 32 bit (float) and then choose an output option that gives you the option of more than millions of colors.

                                                 

                                                png sequences give you the option of 16 bit files, but TGA and TIF sequences give you the option of 32bit (float) files. I'd go with the highest bit depth my system and my plug-ins can handle.

                                                 

                                                Check the other plug-ins you may need to use in the production pipeline and make sure that they are all at least 16 bit compatible or learn how to use the HDR Compander.

                                                 

                                                Here's a 32 bit tiff I made from a video that had about 5 stops of exposure added to blow it way out of the park. I brought it back into AE I added an adjustment layer and brought the levels back down to restore the image and even improve the color grading. The adjustment layer only covers part of the image so you can see the dramatic difference.

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2012-09-12 at 8.00.08 AM.png

                                                • 21. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                  Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                  Hi,

                                                   

                                                  Sorry for the delay in replying - Young master Devereux demanded his bath time! :-)

                                                   

                                                  Dave:

                                                   

                                                  Thanks - thats great - Ill shoot a new clip tomorrow, and run through the workflow start to finish and present the times and success to the team, and then feedback to the forum.

                                                   

                                                  Rick:

                                                   

                                                  Thank you for the tip on the Bit depth. This workflow already relies heavily on one of your suggestions (specifically the double comp frame rate tip) and I will start testing this out tomorrow. Currently, all my comps are 16bit, Rec709(16-235), and linearize workspace.

                                                   

                                                  Ill start the process tomorrow as suggested, each first step as 32bit. Ill also revert back to TIFF then so I can keep the options open. The only plug ins we currently have (other than built in AE ones), is AE Auto lip-sync!

                                                   

                                                  I am still arranging the licenses for MochaImport and Twixtor. Twixtor is posing a bit of a problem at present, as we currently use MAC, and are going to PC soon, and the license for Twixtor is not cross platform - our exchange rate makes the cost for a single licemse rather high, so I need to wait till we get the PC at the office - untill then, ill put up with the "Dreaded red X"! in the tests.  As far as I ca see so far, all effects and plugins we will be needing, will support the 32bit workflow.

                                                   

                                                  Thankss to everyone so far, I will post my findings either tomorrow afternoon, or next week - (currently my network leaves something to be desired, so moving millions of TIFFS around takes some time!)

                                                   

                                                  Pierre

                                                  • 22. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                    Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                    Hi Dave -

                                                     

                                                    Sorry, for some reason yesterday, I completely ignored the last part of your reply?!? - Because re-reading it this morning, it makes perfect sense.

                                                     

                                                    Ill chalk it down to a long day and Junior Devereux's teething nights!

                                                     

                                                    I will start a new project in a few minutes, using Rick's 32bit Suugestions, and the workflow suggested here by you.

                                                     

                                                    Ill post a reply later today.

                                                     

                                                    Heres holding thumbs....

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Pierre

                                                    • 23. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                      Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                      Hi,

                                                       

                                                      OK, so I ran a series of tests now, and guys, I am going round in circle - I am sorry to drag you all into the vortex of my mind, but here is where I am now:

                                                       

                                                      Using the suggestions above :

                                                       

                                                      Step 1 - Filming, Double Comp frame rate, keying, TGA Render

                                                      Step 2 - Stabalize then Twixtor

                                                       

                                                      At this point it all falls apart. Since I need to use the stabalized precomp to create the Mouth rig with AE Auto Lip-Synch, the stabalized comp comes out at, say 5 seconds. If i run Twixtor on the outcome, I end up with a 10 second comp at half speed - great, but the original stabalized precomp (where I need to add the mouth) is only half that length. I am still unable to wrap my mind around how I would use this workflow, to Stabalize THEN slow down and still be able to use the mouth tools I do.

                                                       

                                                      I also ran a batch of tests with another workflow (I am aware that there are several possibile workflows for pretty much any project, the goal of this discussion for me, is to find the most streamlined, and proccess effective one)

                                                       

                                                      Step 1 - Filming, Double Comp frame rate, keying, TGA Render

                                                      Step 2 - Import TGA sequence and use Twixtor to Slow down to final speed, TGA Render

                                                      Step 3 - Stabalize and add mouth rig

                                                      Step 4- Composition work

                                                       

                                                      The only reason, I add step 3 and 4 seperate to the 2nd one, is I would think that having to process the Twixtor algorithms as well as the mouth rig in one comosition would make the machine rather slow - whereas, if I render a sequence out between Twixtor and the mouth rig, there processing on the mouth rig comp should go faster?

                                                       

                                                      As the title of the discussion states...Am I making good workflow suggestions, or am I complicating it too much? Should I let AE process as many steps in one comp as it can, or am I speeding things up with multiple render levels between steps?

                                                       

                                                      Thanks for your patience guys.

                                                       

                                                      Pierre

                                                      • 24. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                        Dave LaRonde Community Member

                                                        If i run Twixtor on the outcome, I end up with a 10 second comp at half speed - great, but the original stabalized precomp (where I need to add the mouth) is only half that length.

                                                         

                                                        Check the frame rates in your comps.  There's an obvious mismatch somewhere.

                                                        • 25. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                          Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                          Actually misunderstanding about stabilising arises from the point that 'stabilising' Pierre needs and is talking about is not a piece of a technical part of the job, but a creative one.

                                                           

                                                          In the tutorial Mathias creates a stabilised pre-comp out of a character's mouth tracked in Mocha for only purpose - to apply Auto Lip-Sync script correctly. Therefore, there is no any frame rates mismatch or whatever. This is about understanding what is in the Mathias's tutorial.

                                                           

                                                          To sum up, after keying and slowing a footage down with Twixtor the technical part of the job finishes.

                                                          • 26. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                            Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                            Hi Fuzzy,

                                                             

                                                            I think this sounds right so far. I need to add a mouth to a moving piece of footage - that is the end result. The footage must move at 100% slower than it is recorded - hence the 50% initial slow down followed by another 50% twixtor slow down. Once I have the footage at the right speed, I can then stabalize and add the mouth.

                                                             

                                                            Thanks Dave, for your input. It is not the frame rates that are the issue, at this point, I am comfortable doing the work in a few steps, it is now a matter of whether to do as many effects in one comp as possible, or split them over several intermediate renders.

                                                             

                                                            Pierre

                                                            • 27. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                              Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                              If it were me, I'd avoid rendering intermediate for the sake of rendering intermediate. Even though you definitely need one to track your character mouth in Mocha, you don't have to utilise it in AE project - you need just Mocha tracking data (hope, it's clear).

                                                               

                                                              Hence, perform some test. If your machine is beefy enough and can handle all the effects applied inside a master composition with several nesting levels without bogging your system down, purring animal sees no reason why render DI...

                                                              • 28. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                Hi Fuzzy,

                                                                 

                                                                sorry for the late reply - we moved offices today - and as the IT manager I had a lot of fetching and carrying to do!

                                                                 

                                                                I will try a few tests on Monday, I am interrested to see how deep I can take the nesting levels and still get good response from the system. I will keep trhe original TGA sequence render, as that is usefull to remove the interlaced footage for the durtion of the project workflow. Ill run a few scenarios, and feedback on Monday.

                                                                 

                                                                Have a great weekend all,

                                                                 

                                                                Pierre

                                                                • 29. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                  Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                  Hi,

                                                                   

                                                                  And a great weekend was had by all???

                                                                   

                                                                  Ok, So I did further tests today (after finally getting the network to run corrcetly at 1GBPS) and I cannot figure out how to run the Mocha tracking without rendering a seperate footage sequence out. Because I use MochaImport, it requires a footage item to work, and for me to run Twixor on a footage item that has Keylight applied, I need to precompose it, and MochaImport does not seem to recognize a Precomp as a footage item (since it technically is not I guess!) - So, I am at this point:

                                                                   

                                                                  Step 1 – Shoot and create TGA Sequence for half speed playback

                                                                   

                                                                  1. Shoot at VFR of 50FPS
                                                                  2. Shutter speed of 1/120th for film motion feel
                                                                  3. Import footage into After Effects as 25FPS separate fields – upper field first.
                                                                  4. One minute of footage will play in 1 minute
                                                                  5. Create new 32bit Comp at 50FPS
                                                                  6. Time remains 1 minute, but twice as many discreet frames are shown within that minute
                                                                  7. Apply Keying technique
                                                                  8. Precompose and apply Twixtor at a further 50% slow down
                                                                  9. Double composition time
                                                                  10. Time remap footage and pull to the end of the timeline
                                                                  11. Render TGA Sequence

                                                                   

                                                                  Step 2 – Stabalize and add Mouth

                                                                   

                                                                  1. Import TGA
                                                                  2. Use MochaImport to create stabilized precomp
                                                                  3. Use AE Auto Lip-synch for addition of mouth
                                                                  4. Precompose and apply compositing and effects required for shot.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  So, It has been a long discussion this, but I found it really helpful in pointing me in the right direction. So far, this workflow seems to be pretty eficient as every shot we take will have to be run through the process.

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks to all..

                                                                   

                                                                  Pierre

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  Oh yes,

                                                                   

                                                                  I just need to confirm once I get a chance to run the whole wokflow from start to finish, that the Frame Rate changes fit together properly - from 50fps to 25fps etc.

                                                                   

                                                                  Message was edited by: Pierre Devereux

                                                                  • 30. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                    Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                                    You obviously can't send a precomposition to Mocha, you have to render a footage out of that precomp to work with in Mocha. But my point was you don't have to reimport this footage in AE, you can apply Mocha tracking data (which you get by working on rendered footage) onto a precomposition directly...

                                                                    • 31. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                      Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                      Hi,

                                                                       

                                                                      Got it - took me a while...but finally I got it!

                                                                       

                                                                      Soon I'll be chunking out compositions by the hundreds!

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks Fuzzy.

                                                                       

                                                                      Pierre

                                                                      • 32. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                        Rick Gerard CommunityMVP

                                                                        If it were my project I would stabilize before anything else. The only time I would not do this is if I have to put the camera motion back in. In that case I'd do the slow mo processing, then stabilize, add your mouth, put the motion back, then key and composite.

                                                                         

                                                                        The key to a good workflow is to make sure that you are doing most of your processing with the frames that will be used in the final project. You want to try and get to the place you would be in your production if the camera work was perfect before you start doing anything else.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                          Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                                          Rick, there is no footage stabilisation in Pierre particular workflow. There is tracking a character mouth in Mocha and applying corner pin data.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                            Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                            Hi,

                                                                             

                                                                            Thats what I kept getting wrong - I kept getting confused between stabalizing, and a stabalized precomp for gathering the corner pin data. Sorry guys - this was a long and involved discussion, that could probably have gone a lot smoother if I had understood the fundamentals of what I was actually asking!

                                                                             

                                                                            Regardless, I cannot explain how much I have actually learned through this discussion, and want to thank you all once again for all the input you have given -

                                                                             

                                                                            Here is to learning, and better explanations for further questions!

                                                                             

                                                                            Pierre

                                                                            • 35. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                              Rick Gerard CommunityMVP

                                                                              See Step 2 item 2

                                                                              Step 2 – Stabalize and add Mouth

                                                                               

                                                                              Import TGA

                                                                              Use MochaImport to create stabilized precomp

                                                                              Use AE Auto Lip-synch for addition of mouth

                                                                              Precompose and apply compositing and effects required for shot.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                                Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                                Hi Rick,

                                                                                 

                                                                                I think I owe you the greatest thanks for your "double frame rate" suggestion that solved a large problem I was having - and then in the same breath, an apology for the confusion in the question. It is a stabalized precomp, but not for the sake of stabalizing the shot, rather, to get the data required to attach the mouth rig.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Thanks for your input, and i really will be using these steps when i get to projects that require 'actual' stabalizing!

                                                                                 

                                                                                And thanks to you Fuzzy for making it all clear to me!

                                                                                 

                                                                                Thanks guys

                                                                                 

                                                                                Pierre

                                                                                • 37. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                                  Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                                                  Bookmark this Chris Meyer tutorial - it's going to help you solve some issues when it comes to stabilising some green screens (and understand why stabilising should be done prior to keying).

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                                    Pierre Devereux Community Member

                                                                                    Hi,

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Time to dredge up this old thread again!

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I have done several tests, and am happy with the workflow in After Effects at the moment. Basically only one Pre-render, and that is to get the full 50 discreet frames out from the recorded footage. So now I am at the next step, and I have tried a few things and want to know if I am doing it right - Taking my completed project through to export phase!

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I complete the project in After Effects and save it. I open a new project in Premier using Dynamic Link (this way I do not do any more renders?) and cut the compositions together as I want them. I then Queue this in Adobe Media Encoder and export to the desired format. Is this the way it is done usually? After the past 8 months on After Effects, I am about to start learning Premier, but it does seem like it could be a very user-friendly and intuitive NLE?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    And my final question, What format do I need to export to, to be able to burn the product to a standard DVD for reviewing purposes (best possible quality) and what format do broadcasters want? (that last part is way asking the question way before it becomes an issue, but I would like to start understanding what formats TV broadcasters usually request the shows in BBC for instance?)

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Well, any advice will be appreciated as usualy, of even a point to the right forums (if I should take these questions to the PPro forums too - although I now feel nice and comfortable here, and as a creature of habit - I fear change!)

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Pierre

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Good Workflow or Insane idea?
                                                                                      Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                                                      In relation to when to rely on Adobe Dynamic Link, and when - on a digital intermediate, have a look at this thread in PrPro Forum. Read up to the end and pay attention to Todd's comments.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      What format a broadcaster wants may depend on a broadcaster. E.g. here is BBC guidelines.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Although Rick and other worthies with their really outstanding experience may answer about any question, do not hesitate using PrPro Forum, since sometimes you may need answers for PrPro specific questions.

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