25 Replies Latest reply on Oct 7, 2012 5:35 PM by ALsp

    Latest Update Availability

    Missteach Level 1

      Hello,

       

      I updated to the latest DWCS6 last week - or so I thought.  I've seen there is a further update to v12.1.

       

      However, at the moment, this seems to be available to cloud members only.

       

      I watched the promo video and the guy talking seems to suggest it was updated to cloud members because they require these updates 'as fast as possible'.

       

      Is there a timeline for when it will be released for non-cloud members - i.e. those DWCS6 users who don't, by implication, require the update 'as fast as possible'?

       

      I can imagine the many purchasable guide books for DWCS6 will take a hit in sales until the update releases coincide better.

       

      Any news when the 12.1 update will be released to all?  I'm sure it can't be too hard to make it available using the usual Update Manager.

        • 1. Re: Latest Update Availability
          John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          12.1 is for Cloud members only and will remain that way.

           

          One of the selling points of the Cloud is exclusive early access to new features.

           

          Everyone else will get the new features (introduced by 12.1) in the next paid-for upgrade: either CS6.5 or CS7.

           

          See

          http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/dreamweaver-update/

          • 2. Re: Latest Update Availability
            Missteach Level 1

            Oh! Really? Wow! I hadn't realised that.

             

            I read 'early access' to mean cloud users got the update first.

             

            So, the update won't come into DW until CS7? Wow. That's a long time off.

             

            Have to admit I'm shocked.

            • 3. Re: Latest Update Availability
              John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              The Cloud has been advertised that way since its launch

              http://www.adobe.com/au/products/creativecloud/stay-a-step-ahead.html

               

              http://www.adobe.com/au/products/creativecloud/faq.html

               

               

              "Are there any unique benefits that come with my paid membership?

               

              Yes, as a member of Creative Cloud, you get many benefits that you do not get when you purchase a traditional shrinkwrapped product:

              • An ever-expanding membership that provides access to Adobe's latest products, services, features, and workflows as soon as they are available. You no longer have to wait 12, 18, or 24 months for the latest innovations."

               

               

              12.1 is just the first exclusive Cloud-only update. There will be more to come for DW and other apps.

               

              Illustrator got a Cloud-only update in August

              http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/exclusive-updates-to-illustrator-available-now-for-cr eative-cloud-members/

               

              The whole point of these exclusive updates is to make the Cloud more compelling than buying the software in the traditional way.

              • 4. Re: Latest Update Availability
                Missteach Level 1

                Hello,

                 

                I've seen it available but never had any interest in it - so, I've not investigated it.  I've always prefered to own the programs on disc in case of problems.

                 

                When you say 'The whole point of these exclusive updates is to make the Cloud more compelling than buying the software in the traditional way', what was wrong with buying programs in the 'traditional way'?

                 

                Are you saying Adobe doesn't want to sell to 'traditional users'?

                • 5. Re: Latest Update Availability
                  Ben M Adobe Community Professional

                  Wode, it's has to do with accounting practices and releasing new features to a product causes Adobe to recognize revenue differently.  I haven't bought into the Cloud idea myself since I don't need/want the video programs or programs like Muse.

                   

                  Also if you search the forums for 12.1 you will see that Adobe didn't do a good job with this release. Renaming features, removing features, removing preferences if you didn't read the tech notes first to realize that preferences would be overwritten as part of this "minor" update.  Right now with the discontent being posted it sounds like paying to be a beta tester.

                  • 6. Re: Latest Update Availability
                    John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Adobe is looking for an alternative business model to improve revenue and make it more consistent - rather than spikes every 2 years (when a new release arrives) then modest income until the next upgrade cycle.

                     

                    They're also looking for new users: those who won't pay big dollars upfront or can't afford it.

                     

                    They've tried the subscription model for a couple of years with limited success. It was never compelling and was frankly overpriced.

                     

                    The Cloud is their latest attempt and seems to be getting noticed. Lots of software for a modest monthly fee.

                     

                    As the Cloud evolves and Adobe learns what will keep the Cloud compelling (early access to new features, more bundled product inclusions etc), it'll no doubt replace the traditional model of software delivery on disc, and perhaps even perpetual licenses may disappear soon (pure speculation on my part).

                     

                    The Cloud is in its early days and has wrinkles.

                     

                    DW 12.1 was a very clumsy update taking many by surprise by removing longstanding features without telling anyone. Kindergarden stuff really. Adobe ought to have known better. I was surprised myself that Adobe would do such a thing. The big issue is that trust is eroded. It makes users gun-shy about updating early.

                     

                    Nevertheless, the Cloud will mature and evolve over time and the issues occurring in 2012 will soon be forgotten.

                     

                    Once the Cloud settles and delivers on Adobe's business goals, the next question will be the future of the traditionally licensed products.

                    • 7. Re: Latest Update Availability
                      David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                      SnakEyez02 wrote:

                       

                      Wode, it's has to do with accounting practices and releasing new features to a product causes Adobe to recognize revenue differently.

                      Correct. Just to clarify the situation, this accounting practice isn't unique to Adobe. It's a bizarre legal requirement in the USA that arose out of the Enron scandal. New features cannot be added to a product free of charge except in the same accounting quarter as the product was originally released. One exception is that the company can promise a new feature at the time of the product's original release, but the value of the new feature has to be recorded separately in the accounts. It's such a complex legal mess that companies tend not to do it.

                       

                      As for the complaints about the 12.1 update, there does need to be a better way of informing users what to expect if they apply an updater. I don't use many extensions, and I frequently change my Dreamweaver Preferences for testing purposes. So, I wasn't severely impacted by the changes. But it must have been very frustrating for someone in the middle of a project to find many features changed.

                       

                      Is it worth updating to 12.1 if you haven't already done so? If you plan to use HTML5 features, such as video and audio, or the new semantic tags, I would say yes. Also, it's a good idea if you plan to use a lot of animations created in Edge Animate. Apparently, it's a good update for anyone on a MacBook Pro with retina display because Dreamweaver has been optimized for high-pixel-density displays. If none of those apply to you, stick with the basic version.

                      • 8. Re: Latest Update Availability
                        Missteach Level 1

                        Hello,

                         

                        That's an interesting perspective I hadn't realised.  However, I think I have a solution.

                         

                        When David Powers states: 'New features cannot be added to a product free of charge except in the same accounting quarter as the product was originally released', if the reason this has been implemented is to only comply with an American law, why not make the update available to everyone but charge a nominal fee - such as $10?

                         

                        This would allow Adobe to satisfy the law that has prevented them from making the update available to all users.

                        • 9. Re: Latest Update Availability
                          David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                          Wodehouse wrote:

                           

                          if the reason this has been implemented is to only comply with an American law, why not make the update available to everyone but charge a nominal fee - such as $10?

                          I understand that's the approach Apple took with the wifi patch for Core2Duo Macs in 2006. They charged $5 for what was originally intended as a free update because it would have been considered illegal.

                           

                          However, Adobe has decided on a different approach. It wants customers to move to the Creative Cloud subscription system. That's why subscribers get updates and other benefits that aren't available to others. Adobe doesn't want the occasional $10. It wants your money every month.

                           

                          The only apparent disadvantage of signing up for Creative Cloud is that the software stops working if you stop subscribing. But that's also true of a lot of other services most people rely on: cable/satellite TV, mobile phone, internet connection, domain registration, and so on.

                          • 10. Re: Latest Update Availability
                            John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Wodehouse wrote:

                            if the reason this has been implemented is to only comply with an American law, why not make the update available to everyone but charge a nominal fee - such as $10?

                             

                            This would allow Adobe to satisfy the law that has prevented them from making the update available to all users.

                            That's not the primary reason.

                             

                            The primary reason for 12.1 being for Cloud members only is that Adobe is intentionally creating a distinction between Dreamweaver (non-Cloud) and Dreamweaver (Cloud).

                             

                            In other words, 12.1 is adding value to Cloud membership. They want non-Cloud members to join the Cloud to get access to 12.1 (plus the other Cloud benefits of course).

                            • 11. Re: Latest Update Availability
                              ALsp Level 4

                              Do you have a link to the "bizarre law" so I can read up on it?

                               

                              --

                              Al Sparber - PVII

                              http://www.projectseven.com

                              The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                              Since 1998

                              • 12. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                Ben M Adobe Community Professional

                                Al, it's not actually a law just an interpretation that businesses are taking on a law.  There is no law in place to say that Adobe cannot add to a product after it's release without charging.  The laws that are in place simply state that revenue must be recognized at that point after the update.  In order to prevent their accounting department from recognizing revenue at a later date it's easier for them to charge on a subscribing basis.

                                 

                                http://www.sox-online.com/soxact.html

                                 

                                Personally I believe it's a marketing scheme to provide recurring revnue as opposed to spikes in revenue in the release cycles. I don't subscribe because I don't like paying for development that doesn't benefit me like Video software and things like Muse.  In the cable world example that David gave I would equate those to the foreign language channels (Muse) and premium channels (Video software).  It should be like Microsoft saying that if you want Office you have to take Access and Publisher and Visio if you want to buy Word, Excel and Powerpoint.  And back to the point with the cable comparison, if the cable goes out or stops working, part of what I pay for is support on the other end and techicians to fix the problem for me.  As far as I have seen from the Creative Cloud, if Dreamweaver stops working you are no better off than a perpetual license because you have to pay for phone support.

                                • 13. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                  ALsp Level 4

                                  Hi Snake,

                                   

                                  The legal aspect is baloney. At best, Adobe is using it as some sort of

                                  lame excuse. If they want people to believe that the reason they do not

                                  fix bugs in a timely manner or keep features like Spry (R.I.P.) or Edge,

                                  or Fluid Grid properly and properly up to date, then I can understand

                                   

                                  That they have apologists for this is totally beyond comprehension.

                                   

                                  --

                                  Al Sparber - PVII

                                  http://www.projectseven.com

                                  The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                                  Since 1998

                                  • 14. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                    David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                    As SnakEyez02 points out, it's an interpretation of the principle of revenue recognition under Sarbanes-Oxley.

                                     

                                    Every time I have asked anyone at Adobe why features aren't updated, the answer has always been "revenue recognition". The following article explains how it affected Apple with regard to software updates on the iPhone: http://www.bpmcpa.com/Library/Assurance/Revenue-Recognition.asp.

                                     

                                    That article was written a couple of years ago, and it refers to changes in the rules governing revenue recognition. However, I've no idea what impact those changes might have had on how Adobe has to account for its income and any policy towards software updates.

                                     

                                    Putting aside the complexities of US accounting standards, Adobe made it very clear in an analysts' briefing a year ago that it wanted to move from perpetual licences to a subscription system. I watched the analysts' briefing last year, but the link to the recording disappeared shortly afterwards. Still, the reasons behind Adobe's strategy are simple. Instead of massive swings in revenue being dependent on people upgrading to a new version when it comes out, subscription provides a steady stream. Even if some people don't renew, as long as the entry price is sufficiently low, new subscribers will replace them.

                                     

                                    The success or failure of the strategy depends on whether Creative Cloud offers better value. Although the 12.1 update offers some useful HTML5 features, it feels as though it was rushed out of the door to coincide with the Create the Web event on 24 September. The official Adobe line is that Creative Cloud will offer subscribers features as soon as they're ready. But they must be ready, not half-finished.

                                    • 15. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                      David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                      Al Sparber wrote:

                                       

                                      That they have apologists for this is totally beyond comprehension.

                                      I wonder who those apologists are?

                                       

                                      For clarity, this is what I wrote earlier: "New features cannot be added to a product free of charge except in the same accounting quarter as the product was originally released." I'm not an expert in US accounting policy, but my reading of articles regarding "revenue recognition" appears to support that position.

                                       

                                      Bug fixes are a completely different issue. In the Macromedia days, it was common for one or two updaters to be issued between major releases. That changed after Macromedia was acquired by Adobe, yet other programs, such as Photoshop and Illustrator, received regular updates. I've no idea why the former Macromedia programs didn't do the same. Expecting existing owners to upgrade to a new paid-for version simply to get bug fixes is appalling.

                                       

                                      Within the past couple of months, Dreamweaver has a new marketing manager and a new product manager. I hope they'll not only provide Creative Cloud subscribers with well thought out new features, but also ensure that perpetual licence holders get bug fixes.

                                      • 16. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                        ALsp Level 4

                                        I called my accountant this afternoon. While he is not an expert in the

                                        software field, he read the linked page and essentially came to the

                                        conclusion that with regard to pure software publishers, the

                                        interpretation you say Adobe has made seems to amount to gaming of the law.

                                         

                                        I'm not an accountant, but have been in the corporate world for many

                                        years and that was my initial reaction.

                                         

                                        If a software developer releases a product during an accounting period,

                                        and later, in the same period, decides to offer a free update that

                                        includes a new feature (or 3 new features), that is entirely legal - and

                                        you can take that to the Supreme Court.

                                         

                                        This whole issue is really, really, ridiculous - and what is happening

                                        is really, really, obvious. My feeling is that if you have nothing good

                                        to say about something, don't manufacture a positive spin. There is no sound reason for

                                        anyone to attempt to justify or rationalize this. None whatsoever.

                                         

                                        I need to start selling some bridges again

                                         

                                        --

                                        Al Sparber - PVII

                                        http://www.projectseven.com

                                        The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                                        Since 1998

                                        • 17. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                          David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                          Al Sparber wrote:

                                           

                                          If a software developer releases a product during an accounting period,

                                          and later, in the same period, decides to offer a free update that

                                          includes a new feature (or 3 new features), that is entirely legal - and

                                          you can take that to the Supreme Court.

                                          Yes, I'm sure it is perfectly legal. The issue in question is how the revenue is reported in the company's accounts. A far more technical explanation of how revenue recognition affects software companies can be found at http://www.revenuerecognition.com/industry/software/.

                                           

                                          It says, in part: "Adjunct products or services provided with the software could be upgrades, training, customer support, or any other such offerings. These additional elements far exceed the delivery of the actual software, and the initial question is one of allocation of the total license fee to the software and the relevant elements. . . . Where vendor-specific objective evidence (VSOE) of fair value exists for all of the elements, the total arrangement fee (license fee) must be allocated to each element of the arrangement, and can be recognized as revenue for each element only when the SOP 97-2 criteria for the element have been satisfied."

                                           

                                          As I understand it, if a software company sells a product for $100 in May, and then offers a free upgrade with a nominal value of $50 six months later, the company accounts have to show $50 revenue in May and the remaining $50 in November. If the upgrade is not free, then there's no problem. As someone suggested earlier in this thread, Adobe could make the 12.1 update to Dreamweaver available to others for a nominal fee. However, I expect that shareholders and customers would start asking questions about the real value of the update if only a nominal amount were charged.

                                           

                                          But the question of upgrades is separate from bug fixes. I believe Adobe would gain greater respect from its customers if it fixed bugs promptly and provided patches as soon as available. If that causes problems with revenue recognition, it should be possible to allocate, say, 10% of the purchase price to bug fixes and spread the revenue over a specific period.

                                           

                                          But I'm not an accountant, so what do I know?

                                          • 18. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                            ALsp Level 4

                                            "As you understand it" is "gaming" as "I understand it". Or some less

                                            kind person might simply call it bull excrement. Why don't you give us a

                                            treatise on the difference between an upgrade and an update

                                             

                                            --

                                            Al Sparber - PVII

                                            http://www.projectseven.com

                                            The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                                            Since 1998

                                            • 19. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                              Missteach Level 1

                                              To follow up the comment by DP  - 'As someone suggested earlier in this thread, Adobe could make the 12.1 update to Dreamweaver available to others for a nominal fee. However, I expect that shareholders and customers would start asking questions about the real value of the update if only a nominal amount were charged.'

                                               

                                              No, I don't think they would. They would be very happy to pay a nominal fee to help Adobe get round the 'law' as long as the update became available. However - like you - this is just a guess.  I think the best thing to do is try it.  Unless, of course, that's not the real reason why updates are unvailable for existing customers.

                                              • 20. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                                Call it what you like, Al. The bottom line is that Adobe's current business model is designed to move customers to monthly payments. And it seems to be working. According to this article, 8,000 people signed up each week during Q3: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/09/20/adobe_q3_and_creative_cloud/.

                                                • 21. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                  David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                                  Wodehouse wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Unless, of course, that's not the real reason why updates are unvailable for existing customers.

                                                  You've hit the nail on the head. Adobe has made no secret that it wants customers to switch to the Creative Cloud subscription system. If updates are made available at a nominal price, there's no incentive to switch.

                                                  • 22. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                    ALsp Level 4

                                                    Gosh you're thick

                                                     

                                                    Let's check back after this all comes tumbling down. It is not a

                                                    sustainable model and, in my opinion, anyone who thinks it is has a very

                                                    poor grasp of marketing principles.

                                                     

                                                    I'm sure it never occurred to you that Adobe is, essentially, a monopoly

                                                    - and a large percentage of its customer base is pretty much captive.

                                                     

                                                    In reality, the "features" they are rolling out are flawed. They need to

                                                    stick to be a web editor with WYSIWYG capabilities. When they start

                                                    adding CSS "templates" or tools, or HTML5 tools, or scripts, they are

                                                    firing a shot that will hit their customers in the foot 2 years from now

                                                    when those features are outdated - or worse.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    --

                                                    Al Sparber - PVII

                                                    http://www.projectseven.com

                                                    The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                                                    Since 1998

                                                    • 23. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                      Nancy OShea Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                      In reality, the "features" they are rolling out are flawed. They need to

                                                      stick to be a web editor with WYSIWYG capabilities. When they start

                                                      adding CSS "templates" or tools, or HTML5 tools, or scripts, they are

                                                      firing a shot that will hit their customers in the foot 2 years from now

                                                      when those features are outdated - or worse.

                                                      Ok Al, how is this any different than those unfortunate days of MM Rollover menus, or the now defunct Spry framework both of which were severely flawed BTW? 

                                                      I just see this as a continuing trend.   The more things change, the more they stay the same.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Nancy O.

                                                      • 24. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                        David_Powers Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                                        Al Sparber wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Gosh you're thick

                                                        Sorry, Al. Once you start with personal insults, even with a smiley, you begin to lose the argument.

                                                        I'm sure it never occurred to you that Adobe is, essentially, a monopoly

                                                        - and a large percentage of its customer base is pretty much captive.

                                                        Adobe's monopoly is restricted to a handful of products, primarily Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator. There's certainly no monopoly where Dreamweaver is concerned. In fact, the overwhelming majority of designers/developers that I come into contact with in the UK haven't used it for many years.

                                                        In reality, the "features" they are rolling out are flawed.

                                                        Yes, I would agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying out new features. But they need to be well thought-out and implemented. And if they prove to be duds, Adobe should have the courage to remove them swiftly. Dreamweaver also needs to shed a lot of its legacy features. But doing so is likely to provoke howls of anguish from those who rely on them.

                                                         

                                                        I seem to remember you writing some time ago that rather than trying to "fix" Dreamweaver, it needs to be rewritten from the ground up. Maybe that's what lies behind Brackets and Edge Code.

                                                        • 25. Re: Latest Update Availability
                                                          ALsp Level 4

                                                          Hi Nancy,

                                                           

                                                          Yes, it is the same in some respects - but the (misleadingly-named)

                                                          cloud version makes it far more tempting for Adobe to "invent"

                                                          compelling features to entice new and continued subscriptions.

                                                           

                                                          --

                                                          Al Sparber - PVII

                                                          http://www.projectseven.com

                                                          The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets

                                                          Since 1998