-
1. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 24, 2012 1:11 PM (in response to SLTyPete)Well for a start, we'd need to know what effects. Are we talking internal ones, or external VSTs? And we have no idea what you mean by 'messed up' - that's not exactly a useful description, is it?
Basically, it's probably something you've done - but without chapter and verse, we can't tell. Since nobody else has ever reported this as a bug as far as I'm aware, then it probably isn't. No I can't say 100% - but on the balance of probabilities, no.
-
2. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
Bob Howes Nov 24, 2012 4:13 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))Steve asks some valid questions about the details.
FYI, I just did an experiment here. I opened a short musical clip and created an effects rack typical of my work flow, including EQ, Dynamics processing and Reverb, all from the Audition standards (31 band GEQ, "Smooth Vocal" preset on the dynamics and Studio Reverb, Medium Vocal preset). I then switched off/disabled all the effects and did a mix down of the track with the effects rack populated but disabled.
The result sounded identical to my ear and, more important, doing the usual "invert the polarity and mix with the original" test, I was left with a flat line and no artifacts, proving the mix was identical to the original.
So, either there's one specific effect causing the problem or there's something amiss with your set up.
-
3. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 24, 2012 6:28 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))Good questions of couirse.
The effects in the rack (all 100% disabled) - "Music Enhancer" preset plus a few...
- Adaptive Noise Reduction
- Automatic Click Remover
- Automatic Phase Correction
- FFT filter
- Center Channel Extractor
- Graphic Phase Shifter (x2)
- Hard Limiter
I've saved the problematical set as a preset. There is not a way I could share a file-version of that is there?
Not sure how to describe the change. The original is the first 11 seconds of Take Me Down (Michael Omartian) -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i24QiEYkzTU ... 70's synth. Mine is captured from original vinyl->Nakamichi cassette -> digital.
The change... almost as if the music is being briefly "dragged" to slow down the beat here and there. VERY noticeable. I'll try Bob's test of invert-mix and see what I get...
-
4. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 24, 2012 6:33 PM (in response to SLTyPete) -
5. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 24, 2012 7:01 PM (in response to SLTyPete)OK, further experiments and details.
1) The rack overall is enabled, but each effect is disabled. However, disabling the rack doesn't change anything.
2) If I apply the "nothing" effects... it takes a long time (as if something were being done) but the saved file is clean, not ruined.
3) The problem only occurs in the single track editor, not the multitrack. Thus, I can't do the inversion test.
Is there any way I can loop my headphone (or line) out back into my computer and capture what I am hearing?
Thanks for coming alongside. This is frustrating!
-
6. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
Bob Howes Nov 24, 2012 8:34 PM (in response to SLTyPete)Hmmmm...a puzzle.
May I ask: I notice that Audition is processing your swtched off effects. Did you trigger that deliberately or did it just happen?
-
7. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
Bob Howes Nov 24, 2012 8:51 PM (in response to Bob Howes)Anyway...
I've just loaded my effects rack up with the same as you have (quite a collection too!) and hear no difference when I playback the file.
I also hit the "Apply" button (with all the individual effects disabled). Audition did "apply" all the effects but, as they were all turned off, this took a fraction of a second and, again, didn't change anything on the file I was using.
FYI, I did the inversion test by inserting the original file into multitrack, applying the switched off effects then inserting the result into multitrack (if you see what I mean).
Anyway, other than saying I can't duplicate your problem, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas. Hopefully somebody will pop in with a suggestion of some set up preference I'm not thinking of.
-
8. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 25, 2012 6:43 AM (in response to Bob Howes)Thanks for walking through this with me, Bob.
Definitely not on purpose. As you might imagine, for me this is more than just a curiosity. How can I trust anything I hear when even switched-off effects have an impact?
Seems to me the best indication of a problem is the fact that my computer spent 20 minutes "applying" a null effects rack, while yours has no problem.
Since this is 100% repeatable on this file and effects rack for me, I will start varying the elements to narrow down the cause.
I like the inversion test. Very elegant way to prove the difference between two tracks
-
9. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 25, 2012 7:24 AM (in response to SLTyPete)Wow. Very interesting.
Setup:
- I cut the clip down to 11+ seconds, including a half second of silence before the song. Problem still there.
- I experimented with effect combinations. It always and only happens if three effects are present, in any combination. I'll provide the settings I have here:
Adaptive Noise Reduction: 40, 50.28, 10, -10.6, 608.71, 101.38, 512, HiQ checked
Auto Click Removal: 13, 95
Auto Phase Correction: Global Time checked, 0, 0, Auto Align checked, 1ms, Auto Center checked, slow, Left only, 1024
Now here's the amazing part. It 100% is some kind of processing anomaly, and time-related in playback. NOTE: my computer is ultra speedy and barely showing any CPU usage...
What I see: playing the 11 seconds on loop, when the problem is there, the sound I hear gets further and further behind the moving cursor on-screen. After two loops (22 seconds of play), the cursor is 1/2 second ahead of the sound. 4 loops, 1 second ahead. Yes, the cursor is in the middle of obvious sound waves on-screen, while I am still listening to the half-second pre-song silence!
I need to take a break now. Next I will simplify from 96k audio to 44.1, then start monkeying with effect settings.
Of course, all the effects are OFF so that should not make a difference... but this is clearly a bug somewhere!
-
10. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 25, 2012 1:50 PM (in response to SLTyPete)NAILED IT.
The following is 100% repeatable for me. Can anyone else replicate this?
1) Choose 10-20 seconds of music, with a bit of silence before or after (as an audible marker), stereo, 32 bit, 96k -- or even 44.1k although the problem is not as pronounced in 44.1k (see below)
2) set up to play as a loop
3) load any of the following into your effects rack. Loading more than one just makes it more obvious.
a) Adaptive Noise Reduction, default settings, then turn ON high quality and set FFT size to 16384. (8192 is sufficient for 96k, but at 44.1k I need 16384) [This one produces horrifyingly awful results]
b) Auto Click Removal, default settings, then Threshold 1, Complexity 100 (This one only causes trouble on 96k files)
c) Auto Phase Correction, default settings, then Analysis Size 4k, Time Resolution 1.0 msec, Response Ultra Slow
4) BE SURE the effect is turned OFF (but leave the rack on)... or turn the whole rack off. The effect SHOULD do nothing at all.
Now play the loop a few times.
Notice the following anomalies:
A) The cursor tracks (sometimes jumpily) in real time, but the sound is much slower. With Adaptive Noise Reduction @ FFT=16384, I can't really tell it is music... running about 1/10 speed or something
B) It is as if the on/off switch for the effect does nothing to disable the effect during playback
C) Your CPU will likely be idling. Whatever is slowing this down is NOT a bunch of processing, but some other kind of overhead/bug
D) In some situations, I even see the Levels Meter stop moving, as if there weren't enough spare cycles to update it.
Discussion
- I wonder how many effects are "always active" like this during playback? Right now, I feel I cannot trust this engine to give me reliable feedback for my settings. My suspicion: most if not all effects are at least partly active for playback, even if turned off, at least with respect to the underlying engine.
- It is claimed some of these effects can have performance issues depending on the platform. My platform has far more capacity and speed than required, yet still there are issues. This tells me I cannot trust my ears to tell me if a particular effect and setting is giving me poor results... or if it is just this hidden engine bug causing the sound to degrade. (Note: if I use all three effects with settings as shown, my CPU is running at 11 percent. Not even enough to get the fan going! Definitely not system-limited.)
- If there IS some kind of built-in engine limitation relating to these kinds of problems, I highly recommend that Adobe implement a visual marker to indicate that the effects rack is unable to do its thing in real-time, thus what I am hearing is not an accurate representation of the effects. (However, even if so, I would expect that disabled-effects should not contribute to any performance problem.)
I sure hope this is enough so others can replicate the problem!
Thanks much,
Pete
-
11. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 25, 2012 2:47 PM (in response to SLTyPete)SLTyPete wrote:
- If there IS some kind of built-in engine limitation relating to these kinds of problems, I highly recommend that Adobe implement a visual marker to indicate that the effects rack is unable to do its thing in real-time, thus what I am hearing is not an accurate representation of the effects. (However, even if so, I would expect that disabled-effects should not contribute to any performance problem.)
But they do... The first thing that happens (unless you'd disabled the notifications) when you put the Adaptive NR in as a realtime effect is that it comes up in red in the effects rack, and the notification specifically says 'this might not be suitable for real-time playback' etc. But, if you leave the effect with its default settings, then it will probably be fine. Yes, I agree that it's slightly misleading to have a power button where all that's really happening is some sort of a bypass, and I'd have to let the developers comment on why this is (although I suspect that 'bypass' might well come into the explanation).
But could be argued that the biggest problem here is that Adobe actually let you put things like the Adaptive NR in the effects rack at all. It's fine to have the realtime sound modifiers in there; that's what it's for - but I don't think that the ones known as 'process' effects should be there at all, as this isn't the way that they're intended to be used. Which is why you get the warnings...
-
12. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
Bob Howes Nov 25, 2012 4:15 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))Interesting.
In my attempts to mirror the OP's problem, I just left all effects on their default settings so that's likely why I didn't encounter any issues.
I do agree that the "Process" effects probably shouldn't even be allowed into an effects rack since I'd never use them that way. However, if they're there, then "Off" should mean off. They shouldn't scoot off and start processing a clip in the background--to me that is a bug, albeit one most users would never see.
-
13. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 26, 2012 2:16 AM (in response to Bob Howes)Bob Howes wrote:
However, if they're there, then "Off" should mean off.
That's the thing - I'm not even sure you should have the option to switch them off; that control would be better labeled as a 'bypass' control. At least that way, you'd sort of expect it to be doing the processing in the background, wouldn't you?
When I tried this, I didn't get any further than the suggested settings for the Adaptive NR. Even with the effect switched off, I got a small breakup in the sound - and that's on a bloody fast i7! But that's the thing, really - the effects rack is just that; it's for effects. NR, de-clicking and even phase correction are processes that don't affect the sound per se, and they shouldn't be put in there - or even allowed to be.
-
14. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 26, 2012 4:24 AM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:
I'm not even sure you should have the option to switch them off; that control would be better labeled as a 'bypass' control. At least that way, you'd sort of expect it to be doing the processing in the background, wouldn't you?
... But that's the thing, really - the effects rack is just that; it's for effects. NR, de-clicking and even phase correction are processes that don't affect the sound per se, and they shouldn't be put in there - or even allowed to be.
Hmmm... I could almost believe a "bypass" setting is always active but shunted out of the chain. But I would still call it a bug to have it so drastically affect the result.
I'm not sure I can possibly agree with your statement that effects designed to reduce noise or restore audio quality don't have any affect on the sound. In many ways, they make a bigger difference than other more subtle effects. And the value of an auto-processing, dynamically-modified effects processing chain is huge.I've done it the old way (back to AU 2.0); I like the effects-rack method a lot for restoring old audio. If it really worked reliably I could rapidly switch different methods and settings in with a click, and A-B test, all without a single "apply" )
What's almost certainly a bug in my book is to have the ability to so clearly ruin R/T sound playback, supposedly because of a performance problem, when it is quite obvious that it is not a performance problem at all but something else.
I take it from your responses that you've now both been able to replicate the issue. I'll submit a bug report through channels; I assume this forum is not monitored by Adobe staff for bugs.
BTW SteveG, that initial warning is of no help:
- Like you, I'm well within the performance envelope of my system, yet the effects failed. (My system's easily fast enough to process Adaptive NR without any impact except at the most extreme settings.)
- The phase effect does not carry such a warning
- Clearly, some settings cause no issue while others do cause issues, depending on the system. Assuming the underlying problem can't be fixed, they still could have an indicator for this. I suspect the real issue is similar to dropped frames during video capture.
-
15. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 26, 2012 4:37 AM (in response to SLTyPete)SLTyPete wrote:
I'm not sure I can possibly agree with your statement that effects designed to reduce noise or restore audio quality don't have any affect on the sound. In many ways, they make a bigger difference than other more subtle effects.
That's only because you're using a blunt definition of 'sound' as everything you can hear...
As far as I'm concerned, sound is what you want to hear, and everything else is some sort of noise in the system. So as far as I'm concerned (and I think that in principle the devs will agree with this), the effects rack is for sound modifiers (which is what an 'effect' is), but not for noise modification.
You don't have to agree; After all, I can't force you to look at this correctly!
-
16. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
_durin_ Nov 26, 2012 10:13 AM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))I haven't had a chance before this morning to join the discussion, but effects ARE running even with their power state "off." The primary case for this behavior is to be able to quickly power an effect on and off for preview without pausing playback or waiting for the heavier effects to do their analysis and pre-rendering. With a 16K FFT Size on Adaptive NR, for example, that's a LOT of calculations going on and I believe these algorithms are limited to a single thread.
Most of these effects can be used in the Effects Rack because, while the extreme settings may bog down the processor, lower-to-medium settings are usually fine on most systems. However, I agree that the best practice is to apply these restoration effects one-at-a-time rather than a real-time stack.
However, this doesn't satisfy me as to why the audio data is being slightly changed when an effects rack with all fx bypassed is applied. I'm going to look into this more as I'm sure we've had this discussion sometime in the past.
-
17. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 26, 2012 10:56 AM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, sound is what you want to hear, and everything else is some sort of noise in the system. So as far as I'm concerned (and I think that in principle the devs will agree with this), the effects rack is for sound modifiers (which is what an 'effect' is), but not for noise modification.
Let's go to the Effects menu, which has been there for many years. As you know, effects include modifications to increase or decrease speed, pitch, amplitude, distortion, noise, reverb, and a host of other attributes of sound.
I would say one person's "noise" is another person's "sound"... and thus all of these are reasonable "effects."
Just because Eric Clapton likes to add distortion, while I want to remove it... you might call that "noise modification" but most musicians call that an effect.
-
18. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 26, 2012 11:02 AM (in response to _durin_)_durin_ wrote:
The primary case for this behavior is to be able to quickly power an effect on and off for preview without pausing playback or waiting for the heavier effects to do their analysis and pre-rendering.
That certainly makes sense. What does not make sense is that the engine gets bogged down without ever loading my CPU.
_durin_ wrote:
However, this doesn't satisfy me as to why the audio data is being slightly changed when an effects rack with all fx bypassed is applied. I'm going to look into this more as I'm sure we've had this discussion sometime in the past.
It is also unsatisfactory that there is no indication, visual or otherwise, when the effects rack is bogged down even though my CPU is unloaded. In the extreme case I designed, it is obvious of course. But what about when I'm just tweaking a few effects... and get a result that sounds wrong? I have no way of knowing whether what I am hearing is because of my settings, or because of an overloaded effects engine... without apply-listen-undo.
If there are effects settings that will bog down the engine, then it needs a "not real time" indicator to warn the user that what is heard is not real.
-
19. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 26, 2012 11:42 AM (in response to SLTyPete)SLTyPete wrote:
I would say one person's "noise" is another person's "sound"... and thus all of these are reasonable "effects."
Just because Eric Clapton likes to add distortion, while I want to remove it... you might call that "noise modification" but most musicians call that an effect.
Nope - don't agree at all, and I don't think you've understood the implications of what I'm saying. Crudely, all sound is noise and all noise is sound - regardless of what you think. Wanted noise is sound (even if it includes distortion) and unwanted noise is just - noise. Adaptive noise reduction reduces something other than the required signal (by definition) so it's not an 'effect' as such - and the same would go for click reduction.
-
20. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
Bob Howes Nov 26, 2012 12:20 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))Even on the non-real time destructive processes, I certainly DO use the "on/off" switch to toggle between bypassed and on so that part of the behaviour I concur with. However, in this instance, even in bypassed mode, the effect still seems to be affecting the audio. It's a behaviour I've certainly not noticed before doing one effect at a time in Edit view so I'm guessing that the effects rack may have something to do with it.
It's not a biggie for me--I use things like noise reduction only for their original purpose so not being able to put them in with other (real time) effects doesn't bother me at all--I just get curious about puzzles!
-
21. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 26, 2012 12:31 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))So if my "wanted noise" is...
- below 120Hz (low pass)
- all but 1.9-2.1 kHz (notch)
- Almost any convolution (eg a convolution that smears everything out (eliminating all crisp/definition) to give a "large cave" sound)
Those too "reduce something other than the required signal" so one might argue none of the above are "effects" either?
What's your definition of a "real" effect? From what I'm hearing, your definition just eliminated almost every effect on the board, other than those that add an additional signal to the mix.
I'm honestly not trying to be a pain here. You obviously have great clarity in your mind what you are thinking of, and I'm not understanding.
Having spent a few minutes thinking about how I might articulate this myself, I would say (as a first guess):
- Effects are filters that process media in a particular way. They may add to, remove from, modify or even replace part or all of the original data.
- Depending on the system, effects can be applied statically or dynamically in real time.
- Some effects can be described as fully reversible mathematical transformations. Others cannot be reversed or inverted.
I believe the above statements can be used with both visual and auditory effects. They can be used to describe physical effects filters (whether on a photograpic lens or a trumpet mute) or digital effects.
-
22. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SteveG(AudioMasters) Nov 26, 2012 2:59 PM (in response to SLTyPete)SLTyPete wrote:
So if my "wanted noise" is...
- below 120Hz (low pass)
- all but 1.9-2.1 kHz (notch)
- Almost any convolution (eg a convolution that smears everything out (eliminating all crisp/definition) to give a "large cave" sound)
Those too "reduce something other than the required signal" so one might argue none of the above are "effects" either?
Er, no - you can't have 'wanted noise' - except in the context of establishing what it is you want to remove. Other than that, it's a non sequitur.
If you have a sound which you wish to add reverberation to, then you are taking the wanted signal, and applying an effect to it. If you want to modify the spectrum of that sound, that's fine - you are still working on what is basically a wanted signal to do this. If you had a high level of background noise on your signal, then you'd be applying reverb to that too, which you probably wouldn't want to do. So, as with most signal processing, you make sure that you've got the maximum amount of what you want to treat, and the minimum amount of what you don't want to treat. You do the latter by process effects, and the treatment of the remaining wanted signal with the effects rack, which then works with the signal you want, not the whole thing. That is the way that the effects rack is designed to be used, and why some 'effects' (they aren't really) are process ones.
So, in an ideal world they wouldn't be referred to as 'effects' as such, but signal treatments. That's why programs like iZotope's RX isn't sold as an effects program, but Ozone is. It is actually Audition that's a bit out of step here, I'm afraid.
But yes, whatever happens in the rack, cutting the power/bypassing the effect should work properly, and not have the non-audible processing audible. That really isn't too good.
-
23. Re: Is this me or a bug? Loading disabled effects rack wrecks audio!
SLTyPete Nov 26, 2012 7:34 PM (in response to SteveG(AudioMasters))SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:
If you want to modify the spectrum of that sound, that's fine - you are still working on what is basically a wanted signal to do this.
Now I understand. Keeping it very simple: you are distinguishing based on purpose rather than function.
For example, I hear you saying a notch filter to improve the sound of "basically a wanted signal" is an effect, but a notch filter for the purpose of removing a bit of noise from an otherwise "basically wanted signal" is noise removal. Everything else is just noise... or complexity
Ah well, clearly we're talking past each other. Not worth your time or mine! Have a great evening




