1 2 Previous Next 72 Replies Latest reply on May 26, 2013 5:05 PM by brcssc Go to original post
      • 40. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
        charles badland Level 4

        His criticism is completely valid. My point is it is not an apples-to-apples comparison. I never thought Adobe should have had two verions of Photoshop in the first place.  Silly.

        • 41. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
          *Photonic Level 1

          charles badland wrote:

           

          Besides being 50% more than the $199 / 18 months I had been paying,

          Your numbers are right, but not quite a fair comparison. The $200/18 month was for Photoshop Standard. The stand-alone Photoshop offered in the Cloud is Photoshop Extended, which I thought had a higher upgrade price.

          True. But for me and many others, this is still a fair comparison since we do not need or want PS Extended. Its elementary 3D tools just turns it into bloatware relative to photo editing.

           

          Maybe Adobe can provide a more attractive (cheaper) offerring by making the "Standard" version available again. These users are the folks who are most likely looking for alternatives now -- Pixelmator, GIMP, and maybe a future NIK or OnOne product.

          • 42. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
            Samoreen Level 3

            Hi,

            Noel Carboni wrote:

             

            Half a million users are already paying by the month.

             

            Adobe use this as an allegedly convincing argument. Well, if they are pretty sure that the vast majority of their customers will adopt the new model (I can admit this idea), they should not be reluctant to leave the choice to the few remaining "conservatives" between the new and the old model. They would eliminate the risk to lose these loyal customers. This would be a win-win agreement. No need to force the users to adopt the new model. Or am I naive ?

            • 43. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
              PhotoRoy1 Level 1

              westcopake wrote:

               

              Let me get this straight. I now own Photoshop CS5. If I use the subscription service for 2 years then cancel it - would I still be able to go back and install CS5 as long as the OS can handle it? In other words, will I always have my CS5 to fall back on since if I reinstall it 2 years from now, Adobe will have to reactivate it. Will they still honor my perpetual license?

               

               

              I would make a copy of your C drive onto another hard drive so you have a backup of your current Photoshop and set up

               

               

              Roy

              • 44. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                Curt Y Level 7

                Also, burn a DVD of the installation files if you do not have a CD.  A mirror copy of the C drive will work, but a copy of PS on C drive will not.

                • 45. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                  Samoreen Level 3

                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                   

                  Half a million users are already paying by the month.

                   

                  By the way we should note that most of these users subscribed to the new model while they still thought they could switch back to the standard licensing model at any time. Did you say trapped?

                  • 46. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                    *Photonic Level 1

                    Samoreen wrote:

                    Adobe use this as an allegedly convincing argument. Well, if they are pretty sure that the vast majority of their customers will adopt the new model (I can admit this idea), they should not be reluctant to leave the choice to the few remaining "conservatives" between the new and the old model. They would eliminate the risk to lose these loyal customers. This would be a win-win agreement. No need to force the users to adopt the new model. Or am I naive ?

                    Good question. Relative to the shock many of us long-time users have just experienced, we are obviously feeling there is now a "New" Adobe -- not the warm, fuzzy, innovative, "customer first" Adobe of old.

                     

                    It's debatable how large the market segment is for those of us still preferring the old model, but apparently the strategists at Adobe have decided to write us off as expendible relative to implementing their high-profit CC model. What corporation wouldn't prefer not having to manufacture/distribute a physical product; then getting their money up front w. sales no longer based on product features/performance; and thus being able to lower their R&D costs?

                     

                    Yes, I think we may indeed be "naive" in thinking that our businsess and continued loyalty still matters to Adobe. The money is just too good.

                    • 47. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                      jimfeet

                      What corporation wouldn't prefer not having to manufacture/distribute a physical product...

                      A physical product is not a requirement of a perpetual license. Making a software product available by download only is a practical option and one that is quite common nowadays.

                      • 48. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                        TimCody

                        I am also an amateur who started years ago with Elements and then into CS and Lightroom.   I love the products but won't be taking this trip with Adobe.  I upgrade every other release and that works great for me.  Based on this new direction I will use CS5 & LR4 for as many years as I can get out of them and if Adobe hasn't altered this plan by then I will be looking elsewhere.

                        • 49. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                          *Photonic Level 1

                          jimfeet wrote:

                           

                          What corporation wouldn't prefer not having to manufacture/distribute a physical product...

                          A physical product is not a requirement of a perpetual license. Making a software product available by download only is a practical option and one that is quite common nowadays.

                          True Jim. But now NO physical product will be manufactured and distributed through other vendors for many of Abobe's products. Adobe will be the only consumer source of their product and will reap the increased profits of all sales being "retail" vs. some being wholesale physical product to vendors.

                           

                          Frankly, I still miss not having original application DVD's as the ultimate backup security for my investment. Download integrity and attempting to burn backups has failed me more than once. The Cloud also introduces more variables to reliable access to your data backups.  Pro's and con's.

                          • 50. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                            pf22 Level 2
                            Photonic wrote:  ...NO physical product will be manufactured and distributed through other vendors for many of Abobe's products. Adobe will be the only consumer source of their product and will reap the increased profits of all sales being "retail" vs. some being wholesale physical product to vendors.
                            It may seem that way, but I work for one of Adobe's "Channel Partners" and we're selling Creative Cloud to our professional/corporate clients... at least to the one's who are willing to make the jump right now. We are also selling CS6 licenses, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
                            .
                            Personally Adobe will not see another penny from me as long as I can run CS5/6, and given that my OS is Win7 Pro 64bit, that probably means for the next 20yrs or so! LOL! I don't make a living from Photoshop and never upgraded to each new release, so the price increase is simply out of the question, but more importantly, I find the subscription model Adobe have come up with - stop payin' and you got nuthin'! - completely unacceptable.
                            .
                            For my professional clients CC has definite advantages, and I have no qualms in recommending it, plus, let's face it, it's a fait accompli; they will get on board, either now by choice, or they'll be forced to in the future. As for someone like me, Adobe have decided, from a business perspective, people like me don't matter... thanks guys... and you didn't even buy me dinner!
                            • 51. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                              Greg Bohn Level 1

                              Oh, and I see that there's one more bit of fun for "Creative Cloud' users. It appears that you need to provide your birth date (at least according to http://macperformanceguide.com/blog/2013/20130508_1-Adobe-birth-date.html ).

                               

                                Some might not think it a problem, but having been the victim of Identity theft in the past, being forced to specify my real birth date doesn't seem like a great plan since the loss of that information helps identity thieves.

                               

                                I see stories in the IT industry news all the time about companies having their users data either hacked and stolen or sold by unscrupulous employees...

                               

                                And of course providing a false birthdate is against the license T & C's.

                              • 52. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                CR Henderson Level 3

                                TimCody wrote:

                                 

                                I am also an amateur who started years ago with Elements and then into CS and Lightroom.   I love the products but won't be taking this trip with Adobe.  I upgrade every other release and that works great for me.  Based on this new direction I will use CS5 & LR4 for as many years as I can get out of them and if Adobe hasn't altered this plan by then I will be looking elsewhere.

                                I'm in a similar situation and reached it through a similar process.  Beginning with CS I've updated to each major release and the decision for each upgrade was not an easy one for me to make. That is decidedly no longer the case.  With this change in policy Adobe has lost me as a customer for any product they place into this 'rent to license' scheme--at least under the announced conditions.  On the plus side--I won't have to agonize over the update decision any more.

                                 

                                I will stick with my current version, CS6, for as long as it satisifies my needs, and I expect that to be years.  Sheesh! I could probably still 'get by' with CS if it executed well on my iMac and my plug-ins would still work.

                                • 53. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                  Greg Bohn Level 1

                                  CR Henderson wrote:

                                   


                                  I'm in a similar situation and reached it through a similar process.  Beginning with CS I've updated to each major release and the decision for each upgrade was not an easy one for me to make. That is decidedly no longer the case.  With this change in policy Adobe has lost me as a customer for any product they place into this 'rent to license' scheme--at least under the announced conditions.  On the plus side--I won't have to agonize over the update decision any more.

                                   

                                  I will stick with my current version, CS6, for as long as it satisifies my needs, and I expect that to be years.  Sheesh! I could probably still 'get by' with CS if it executed well on my iMac and my plug-ins would still work.

                                   

                                    Ironically, I was about to take a look at the changes in CS7 and make a decision myself. Up until I saw the new terms.

                                   

                                    I looked back through the disks that I can find and I see that I've been using Photoshop since at least version 5 (not CS 5, but plain old 5).

                                   

                                    I would have at least seriously considered upgrading (even though I was still unhappy about the prior change which  limited how far back they would give upgrade pricing for.)

                                   

                                    Oh well....

                                  • 54. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                    Lundberg02 Level 3

                                    I have PS CS5 and was thinking about getting CS6 so that I could upgrade to 7, until this monopolistic adventure began.

                                    Since I also have PSE 11, I  was able to download ACR 7.4 which some say is far superior to the previous version.

                                    When Focus Magic comes out with their Mountain Lion version in a month or so, I'll be all set for a long time I think.

                                    Paying a monthly fee comparable to a utility rate is out of the question for me since I have a fixed income range and constantly try to cut monthly expenses, such as ******** about introductory rates my cable company gives to new customers that they don't give to longtime users ( this actually worked for once, because satellite is kicking their butts). It's routine for me to examine everything I pay for to get the best cost benefit ratio. Since I don't do any imaging production work, I could stay with Elements until they put that in the Cloud, which they may not do because it satisfies the consumer market and perhaps only a few things like deblur could remain viable for a long time with newer ACRs.

                                    • 55. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                      Level 5

                                      Lundberg02 wrote:

                                       

                                      …Since I also have PSE 11, I  was able to download ACR 7.4 which some say is far superior to the previous version…

                                       

                                      The superiority of ACR 7.4 over any previous version is real, very substantial and beyond any possible doubt, Richard.

                                       

                                      The problem is that the ACR plug-in hosted by Ps Elements is emasculated by design even though it is the very same plug-in one uses on the full version of Photoshop.  You only get a subset of the controls and functionality available to users of the full version of Photoshop CS6.

                                       

                                      For this reason, if you can still upgrade to CS6, I would strongly advise you to do it.  I did so myself on the strength of ACR 7.x alone, upgrading from CS4 when the upgrade to CS5 came with a free upgrade to CS6, at the end of March, 2012.

                                       

                                      Well worth the $220 including shipping of the CS5 box and the CS6 download. 

                                       

                                      EDIT:  Of course I'm not in a position to tell whether buying a copy of Ps Elements to run ACR 7.4 is worth it given its limitations.

                                       

                                      Message was edited by: station_two

                                      • 56. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                        station_two wrote:

                                         


                                        The superiority of ACR 7.4 over any previous version is real, very substantial and beyond any possible doubt, Richard.

                                         

                                        You must mean vs. ACR 6.x and earlier, which I agree with. 

                                         

                                        There's almost no difference between 7.4 and earlier 7.x revisions - certainly nothing beyond new camera support that could be calle substantial by anyone.

                                         

                                        Point in fact, I've found the de-fringing facilities inferior to those in 7.0.

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                        • 57. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                          Lundberg02 Level 3

                                          Where can I find the difference of the PSE ACR 7.4 from the CS6?      I believe CS5 has ACR 7.3.

                                          • 58. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                            Level 5

                                            Lundberg02 wrote:

                                             

                                            Where can I find the difference of the PSE ACR 7.4 from the CS6?      I believe CS5 has ACR 7.3.

                                             

                                            No; the last version of ACR to run on CS5 is ACR 6.7.

                                             

                                            You may find this recent thread in the ACR forum of interest.  It links to previous efforts by Noel and even sports some animations by him showing the difference in before and after renderings in two versions of ACR.

                                             

                                            http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1198963?start=0&tstart=0

                                             

                                            25. 

                                            You may have to click these to see them animate.

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            Additionally, in post #22 of that same thread:

                                             

                                            Professional photographer and art director Ann Shelbourne had this comment in the thread linked above: [ http://forums.adobe.com/message/4328859?tstart=0 ]

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            ACR 7 is amazing: images that I hadn't bothered with before because the DR was simply too extreme (but fortunately had not trashed!) are suddenly becoming golden nuggets!

                                             

                                            ACR 7 means that I am finding that I want to re-convert all of my existing RAW .nefs before using them. [emphasis added]

                                             

                                            Message was edited by: station_two

                                            • 59. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                              Level 5

                                              Noel Carboni wrote:

                                               

                                              station_two wrote:

                                               


                                              The superiority of ACR 7.4 over any previous version is real, very substantial and beyond any possible doubt, Richard.

                                               

                                              You must mean vs. ACR 6.x and earlier, which I agree with…

                                               

                                              It would have been more accurate of me to write:  "The superiority of ACR 7.x over previous versions is real…"

                                              • 60. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                DMC-1959

                                                For those of you wanting to know if a perpetual licensed copy of Adobe products can co-exist with CC ... check out this video on youtube:

                                                Title: Adobe Creative Cloud - from the Media College - channel - where he discusses software issues and conflicts of doing just that.

                                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8vnPm4_eU

                                                • 61. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                  jimfeet Level 1

                                                  For those of you wanting to know if a perpetual licensed copy of Adobe products can co-exist with CC

                                                  In today's environment CS6 can coexist with CC, but what about tomorrow? Unfortunately nobody can answer that question.

                                                  • 62. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                    It would cost Adobe money to break that I think.  They would have to adopt new practices and processes.

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 63. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                      jimfeet Level 1

                                                      I assume you're kidding. By "breaking that" Adobe will force any who continue to use CS6 as a fallback to have to reconsider their reluctance to commit to CC. And with the significant cashflow increase resulting from CC, I don't think the cost would be at all significant.

                                                       

                                                      And the cost would be minimal - just add code to the CC application(s) that prevent concurrent installation with a CS product. Next time your CC hits the cloud and pulls in the latest version...

                                                      • 64. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                        There's probably no convincing people who think all of Adobe is evil, but it's just not the case.  Perhaps the latest marketing strategy is not to your liking, but there actually are people over there who look to do the right things.  I'd bet money they'll never break the ability to have an older version of Photoshop installed along with the latest.

                                                         

                                                        -Noel

                                                        • 65. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                          MW Design Level 5

                                                          Noel, I am a good capitalist. I don't begrudge adobe the right to make the decision they have made, no matter how much I don't like it.

                                                           

                                                          But those good people you write about--of which there are many--are not the people who make the decisions on where adobe goes from here. Their focus, rightly so, is how to make adobe more profitable and of interest to investors first and foremost. Adobe's revenues are pretty flat even with the cloud.

                                                           

                                                          Best regards, Mike

                                                          • 66. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                            jimfeet Level 1

                                                            I've been a dedicated user and consistent upgrade buyer since PS was first released so I have never been in the "Adobe is evil" camp. My concerns relate to the change in Adobe's software business model from one that allowed the user to control version/upgrade purchasing to one that tacitly eliminates that control while at the same time significantly increasing the price at the same time reducing production costs.

                                                             

                                                            You can argue that the user retains the right to upgrade or not by simply opting out of the CC model but in doing so, the user loses all rights to the software they have previously paid for. Although this might conceivably make sense for a new user who has paid monthly fees for a year or less, those of us who have paid thousands of dollars over the years only to have to continue to pay monthly may rightly feel somewhat disenchanted with this new model.

                                                             

                                                            Yes, I'm afraid the new licensing structure with its lower production/distribution costs and higher product sales price is designed to increase corporate cashflow at the expense of user control. I'm quite certain Adobe's shareholders are more enthusiastic than their user base.

                                                             

                                                            Adobe may not have been "evil" in the past, but based on this decision, I can't be certain anymore.

                                                            • 67. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                              jimfeet wrote:

                                                               


                                                              You can argue that the user retains the right to upgrade or not by simply opting out of the CC model but in doing so, the user loses all rights to the software they have previously paid for.

                                                               

                                                              You have specific info to back this up?  My understanding is that if you have a perpetual license for Photoshop version CSx, then subscribe to the creative cloud, use Photoshop CC for a while, then exit the cloud subscription, you will then have the right to continue to use your prior Photoshop version CSx license.

                                                               

                                                              I admit to wondering about what you might lose for signing up for a discounted Creative Cloud subscription with a qualifying license for a prior version.

                                                               

                                                              My comment above implied that I believe what can be installed concurrently with what else is primarily a technical issue, not a marketing one - but of course it's possible marketing could redirect the technical people to change the current policies.  It's just that this would have some cost.

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 68. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                                Greg Bohn Level 1

                                                                >>  by simply opting out of the CC model but in doing so, the user loses all rights to the software they have previously paid for.

                                                                 

                                                                > You have specific info to back this up?

                                                                 

                                                                I read this as referring to the "newer creative cloud software".

                                                                 

                                                                  Clearly the intent (over time) is to deprecate CS6 and have people solely dependent on the Subscription software. So, the expectation is that over time fewer and fewer people will have a fallback if they chose to stop the subscription.

                                                                 

                                                                  That makes it more painful to ever stop paying, so customer lock-in is increased.

                                                                • 69. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                                  Greg Bohn Level 1

                                                                  > but there actually are people over there who look to do the right  things.  I'd bet money they'll never break the

                                                                  > ability to have an older  version of Photoshop installed along with the latest.

                                                                   

                                                                    I don't know if they actually will or won't, but in the end if they were ordered to by their bosses, I suspect they most likely would... You'd have to be pretty motivated to risk losing your job by disobeying.

                                                                   

                                                                  Also, simply not ensuring that changes are compatible in the future is another way of degrading the experience without actually actively attempting to harm it.

                                                                  • 70. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                                    mistermonday10

                                                                    For me there is one instant show stopper with the subscription model, and it's not the price. There is no reasonable disengagement strategy. One day for one reason or another, every subscriber will probably need to terminate his subscription. What does he then do with his nested smart objects that were created in LAB color inside an RGB document.  Why would I invest any effort in Adobe proprietary files and formats knowing one day I just won't hard work will be rendered useless and inaccessible unless I flaten everything and save as a TIFF or JPG? This model has no escape pod. There needs to be some type of buy-out where I can walk away with the latest version fully functional. There can be some type of pro rated charge (based on length of subscription to date) to convert it to a perpetual license with no further support and no physical media. If there is no reasonable disengagement option, then there is no way I will ever sign up to a subscription. I have upgraded every single version of PS since 3.0. I have invested a huge amount in books and plugins and training, NAPP,  and time in PS. Lot of it based on trust in Adobe, trust which is no completely broken.  I understand Adobe's need to generate growth and smooth its revenue flow but I believe it has gone about this CC introduction in the wrong way. There are not hundreds or thousands of loyal customers who feel betrayed by Adobe but there are hundereds of thousands of them. Angry customers make for bad business. Since the CC announcement 2 weeks ago, Adobe's stock has dropped from more more than 10% equating to a market cap loss of almost $2.5B and its still dropping. I may not be an Adobe corporate customer but I do have investments and I can assure you none of them will include Adobe stock going forward. As for those 500,000 happy CC customers Adobe current has, if they all continue, and they all subscribe to the entire Suite (which I doubt) and they all pay the list price of  $50/month, that's $300M total per year. Adobe's Digital Media sales for the last fiscal year were over $3Billion. Good luck converting all that revenue over to CC - it won't happen.  People who gamble in the equities market are pretty intelligent and I am guessing many savy investors will be shorting Adobe stock right now. Customer feedback really doesn't matter in the slightest. What drives action and reaction is what the stakeholders do - and many of those stakeholders are also Adobe customers.

                                                                    • 72. Re: Photoshop CC-cloudy thinking
                                                                      brcssc

                                                                      I think that this proves that Adobe isn't fully aware of who their customers are.  This seems to be directed at large corporate accounts which have creative departments.  It is obviously not targeted at commercial photographers who are currently just barely hanging on due to the easy access to digital cameras, Apple phones which do all of the editing internally, etc.

                                                                       

                                                                      It also doesn't consider the retirees that are a huge and growing population of individuals what are getting into hobby photography in a big way.  Our club has 53 members, all of whom have photoshop, and perhaps light room, but have no interest in the remainder of the creative suite.  The majority of those update at least every other update.  Multiply that by all of the growing retiree photo clubs, and Adobe is going to lose a large number of customers that simply don't have the money to pay for the full creative suite annually, but who have been loyal customers to the products that they want.

                                                                       

                                                                      Google on the other hand is going after this market pretty aggressively buying up many of the add-ons to be applied to their own products.

                                                                       

                                                                      No wonder the stock price has dropped more than 10% since May 6 ($47.20 to $41.90).  No wonder a lot of analysts have downgraded the stock........ And it certainly shouldn't be a surprise that S&P downgraded this stock to a strong sell.  The analysts seem to know Adobe's customer base better than Adobe does.

                                                                       

                                                                      For me, I won't be signing up!

                                                                      1 2 Previous Next