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40. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Stan Jones May 22, 2013 8:25 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)shouldn't your test files ...
I had a related question yesterday: is there a protocol for demonstrating the bug? As illustrated by the thread Fuzzy pointed to, there are lots of false positives: some users were bypassing folders and getting problems which were eliminated by using the intact folders. But were those problems ever the spanning issue?
Any of us might create a protocol, but is there one already?
Steven's version raises the empirical question: does a failure demonstrated with the full folder structure not fail if using individual files? Can a failure be shown with only a single span?
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41. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 5:25 PM (in response to Stan Jones)These are excellent questions that beg for clarification from Adobe.
Your final request in post #34 would be a great place to start:
Stan Jones wrote:
Kevin, can you provide the bug number for this problem?
Can you get a response from the software engineers as to
the believed source of the bug?
At this point, I think we must assume that the proper method of import
as described by documentation (copy folder structure intact from card,
use Media Browser for import) should be the benchmark for
judging whether or not a camera's media is affected.
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42. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 22, 2013 10:53 AM (in response to Stan Jones)Stan Jones wrote:
I had a related question yesterday: is there a protocol for demonstrating the bug?
I did this last year, but I removed all the sound from it because I was going to narrate it. But I failed epically at attempting to create a narration track and just skipped it altogether.
Watch the program monitor jump around while I'm trying to play, scrub backwards, scrub forwards, reset to the beginning, etc.
jas
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43. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 11:08 AM (in response to jasonvp)Thanks for the post, Jason.
This is a great visual visual depiction of how
the bug is manifest in the Premiere Timeline.
I think the 'protocol for demonstrating the bug' Stan mentions has
to do with the method of import (full copy of entire folder structure to
HD, Media Browser or not, single spanned clip vs. more than two, etc.).
How did you import this media?
How many individual spanned clips does it utilize?
What camera / model is the source for this media?
What is the file type of this media?
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44. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 22, 2013 11:36 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)joe bloe premiere wrote:
How did you import this media?
How many individual spanned clips does it utilize?
What camera / model is the source for this media?
What is the file type of this media?
Cameras: Sony Handycam HDRCX300 and HDRCX130.
I copied the entire SD card directory structure to the hard drive, then pointed Premiere Pro's Media Browser at that new directory for the import.
It includes 2 spanned clips (one from each Handycam), each having 3 individual .MTS files as part of them.
Does that clarify it?
jas
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45. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 11:36 AM (in response to jasonvp)Perfect, thanks!
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46. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 11:46 AM (in response to jasonvp)Sorry to trouble you Jason, but Stan's musing:
"...does a failure demonstrated with the full folder structure
not fail if using individual files?"
I don't suppose you still have the media files to test this hypothesis?
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47. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 22, 2013 11:53 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)joe bloe premiere wrote:
I don't suppose you still have the media files to test this hypothesis?
I keep all of my media, so testing it shouldn't technically be difficult. Finding the time to do so, on the other hand, is another story.
jas
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48. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 22, 2013 4:24 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)joe bloe premiere wrote:
"...does a failure demonstrated with the full folder structure
not fail if using individual files?"
I don't suppose you still have the media files to test this hypothesis?
I can confirm that, with my source footage, the problem exists with individual MTS files or the entire directory structure. It doesn't appear to matter.
jas
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49. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 4:28 PM (in response to jasonvp)I can confirm that, with my source footage, the problem exists with individual MTS files or the entire directory structure. It doesn't appear to matter.
Hmmmm... Very interesting.
Thanks for the report.
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50. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
ZachRosing May 22, 2013 4:48 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)I have problems with Panasonic AG-AC130 and HMC-40 cameras. Both exibit the symptoms and both work perfectly fine in CS5. It's been the case with dozens of different projects.
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51. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 5:00 PM (in response to ZachRosing)Hey, Zach!
Thanks for checking in.
Have you ever tried to directly import the files without
using the Media Browser and link them together manually?
If so, did you experience the same problems as Jason reports?
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52. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
ZachRosing May 22, 2013 5:02 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)I experienced gaps in my footage, so...that's not a solution for me.
I don't recall off hand if I had the spanned bug when opening them individually, however, based on when I bought the camera (before CS6), and when I first discovered you were supposed to import those clips through the Media Browser and not individually (rather recently), and when I bought CS6 (a year ago when it came out), and when I went back to CS5 (almost immediately), I'm pretty sure I had similar problems even when importing them individually.
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53. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 22, 2013 5:26 PM (in response to ZachRosing)Thanks.
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54. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
JSS1138 May 22, 2013 8:24 PM (in response to jasonvp)I can confirm that, with my source footage, the problem exists with individual MTS files or the entire directory structure. It doesn't appear to matter.
Are you sure they came in as individual clips? When I tried it using the File>Import... method, PP still saw each one of the files as the full length clip, and brought each of them in not as 20 minute segments, but as full 50 minute clips.
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55. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Steven L. Gotz May 22, 2013 9:56 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)Joe,
No change using Media Browser.
Question. Do people use Media Browser, and if so, why? Bridge is so much more, well, usable!
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56. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 23, 2013 4:14 AM (in response to JSS1138)Jim -
Jim Simon wrote:
Are you sure they came in as individual clips? When I tried it using the File>Import... method, PP still saw each one of the files as the full length clip, and brought each of them in not as 20 minute segments, but as full 50 minute clips.Ah HA! You did the same thing I did on attempt #1: imported the .MTS files directly from within the AVHCD directory structure. When you do that PPro knows what you're up to, grabs the appropriate metadata, and just adds the entire clip.
Attempt #2 is what I ultimately settled on: copying the .MTS files out of the AVCHD directory structure (into a tmp directory), and importing them from there. When doing that, PPro had no idea what belonged to what, and just imported them as individual files.
jas
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57. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Steven L. Gotz May 23, 2013 5:39 AM (in response to jasonvp)OK. I'll bite.
What is wrong with that? Why not individual files if they are perfectly matched one frame to another? What is wrong with three clips instead of one if they look fine on the timeline together?
Damn. I am missing something important here, I know I am, and I can't figure out what it is. They are numbered. Just slap them on a timeline. After all, how many times do you shoot more than an hour of video at one time? That's three, maybe four files?
Aarrgghh! Can someone help me get this through my thick head so I can understand the problem?
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58. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Stan Jones May 23, 2013 5:45 AM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)What is wrong with that?
For the purpose of this thread, nothing, as long as that is the protocol for demonstrating the bug. Since there appears to be no single protocol, I see it also as a test as to whether the bug is really related to metadata or not. (I'm accepting the comment that the single file pulled without access to its metadata will not have it.)
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59. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 23, 2013 5:56 AM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)Steven L. Gotz wrote:
What is wrong with that? Why not individual files if they are perfectly matched one frame to another? What is wrong with three clips instead of one if they look fine on the timeline together?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Steven. The point behind the tests I performed was to see if it mattered how the AVCHD clips were imported. From what I could see: no, it doesn't matter. Spanned clips, whether imported properly using the AVCHD directory structure or as individual .MTS files, trip the CS6 AVCHD bug.
jas
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60. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Steven L. Gotz May 23, 2013 5:57 AM (in response to Stan Jones)What I am missing is the reason that so many people are upset with CS6. If the problem comes from importing the files a certain way, and importing them a different way works just fine, then what am I missing?
I get that they are VERY upset. I just don't get why and I pride myself on understanding Premiere Pro and this is a hole in my knowledge that I would love to fill. I understand the test procedure better now I think, but I don't understand what is so terrible about not having one large file instead of three or four, or even more, as long as they are perfectly sequential.
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61. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
jasonvp May 23, 2013 6:03 AM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)Steven L. Gotz wrote:
What I am missing is the reason that so many people are upset with CS6. If the problem comes from importing the files a certain way, and importing them a different way works just fine, then what am I missing?
The point: Premiere Pro is supposed to "just work" with AVCHD without the need of transcoding. And, prior to CS6, it did that. Several of us can use the same footage in CS5.5 without any issues whatsoever. But when we edit it in CS6, we have all sorts of fun (fsvo: fun).
Does that make sense?
jas
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62. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Steven L. Gotz May 23, 2013 6:07 AM (in response to jasonvp)Not really. No. I am lost. I may have to just drop this and let those with the problem deal with it without my help. I can't duplicate the problem so I will just butt out, I guess.
I have no reason to shoot AVCHD even though I could if I wanted to. I don't have a reason to want to, so "Thanks for all the fish." but I will get out of your way.
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63. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 23, 2013 6:30 AM (in response to Stan Jones)I see it also as a test as to whether the bug is really related to metadata or not. (I'm accepting the comment that the single file pulled without access to its metadata will not have it.)
Thank you Stan, that is exactly the point.
Jason's post #46:
"I can confirm that, with my source footage, the problem exists
with individual MTS files or the entire directory structure.
It doesn't appear to matter."
This seems to suggest the problem is not the metadata, but instead
the problem is the media file (or its length eg:spanned filesize limit).
If you remove the clips from any reference to the spanning metadata,
and they still demonstrate the same behavior depicted in post #42,
then is the problem really a spanned clip bug?
Wouldn't that indicate the problem is the media itself?
So... I wonder
Does a single, short roll from the same camera that does not reach
the spanning filesize threshold play in CS6 without error...
with or without any associated metadata?
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64. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Fuzzy Barsik May 23, 2013 7:21 AM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)What is wrong with that? Why not individual files if they are perfectly matched one frame to another? What is wrong with three clips instead of one if they look fine on the timeline together?
The question is that frames are not matched on a cut (or at least may not). They share data across multiple files and are designed to be treated as a single asset. As I can recall, someone argued that GH3 doesn't write spanned clips because data in files are not distributed across multiple clips, but file is normally closed once the size reached the limit. Not sure if there is such definition of the spanned clips, but real spanned clips are obviously treated as a single shot. How do you see your 'spanned clips' in PrPro: as separate files or several shorter clips are combined in a single long one on importing? If they are not, than GH3 doesn't definitely write spanned clips.
Do people use Media Browser, and if so, why?
Media Browser can recognise camera specific formats through the directory tree - no needs to drill down. Especially important feature for such a thing as Canon MXF files, where every single file wrapped in its own folder.
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65. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
Stan Jones May 23, 2013 7:36 AM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)I get that they are VERY upset. I just don't get why and I pride myself on understanding Premiere Pro and this is a hole in my knowledge that I would love to fill.
That is the topic for other threads. The bottom line is that it requires the affected users to transcode their AVCHD footage before it can be used without problems in PR. Event videographers very frequently have spanned clips.
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66. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
JSS1138 May 23, 2013 3:41 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)If you remove the clips from any reference to the spanning metadata, and they still demonstrate the [bug]
I had the same thought, Joe. I wish I had some media to test with.
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67. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 23, 2013 3:45 PM (in response to JSS1138)Likewise.
I find it hard to imagine that Adobe guys didn't go through
this exact same excersise when developing CS6.
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68. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
JSS1138 May 23, 2013 3:47 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)Well...if they had media that worked fine, like I do...
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69. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 24, 2013 5:47 AM (in response to JSS1138)True, but as a thorough tester I would have insisted
on trying multiple cameras and media types.
At least all of the cameras I knew were fully supported in CS5.
How many cameras would you think were tested before CS5 was
released with all of the brand new MainConcept decoders built in?
One would hope Adobe maintains media file databases from different
manufacturers on hand in the lab for testing, troubleshooting,
confirming bug fixes in the Creative Cloud Subscription release, etc.
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70. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 27, 2013 10:48 AM (in response to JSS1138)Hey, Jim.
Would you mind sharing your thoughts on a couple of questions?
Are you entirely confident that the AVCHD bug has truly been
resolved in the new Creative Cloud Subscription release?
Do you think Adobe tested multiple forms of possibly problematic
media types (spanned or not) in order to make this claim for CC?
If yes, then why would you think the same degree of testing
was apparently not performed prior to releasing CS6?
I would hate to speculate that such a seemingly negligent approach
to media testing for CS6 was in fact a deliberate effort to create an
artificial impetus for users to move to the CC Subscription model.
Thoughts?
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71. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
SteveHoeg May 27, 2013 10:50 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)If you have some problematic media that you would like us to double check has been fixed feel free to send me a PM.
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72. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 27, 2013 10:54 AM (in response to SteveHoeg)See posts #66 and #67...
Jim and I both wish we had problematic media to test with.
Maybe you can shed light on a question posed in post #69:
Does Adobe maintain media file databases from different
manufacturers on hand in the lab for testing, troubleshooting,
confirming bug fixes in the Creative Cloud Subscription release, etc.
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73. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
SteveHoeg May 27, 2013 10:56 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)Yes, we have sets of test media this reproduces with.
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74. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 27, 2013 11:05 AM (in response to SteveHoeg)So... what happened with CS6 testing?
How many cameras / media types were tested before CS5 was
released with all of the brand new MainConcept decoders built in?
Was the same degree of camera / media type testing employed
for the CS5 release performed prior to releasing CS6?
If not, why?
I would hate to speculate that such a seemingly negligent approach
to media testing for CS6 was in fact a deliberate effort to create an
artificial impetus for users to move to the CC Subscription model.
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75. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
SteveHoeg May 27, 2013 11:09 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)Verifying a piece of software as large as Premiere Pro is a complicated process, and here we made a mistake. We are sorry for any inconvenience this has caused and will let you know when we can share more details.
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76. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 27, 2013 11:13 AM (in response to SteveHoeg)Thanks for that, but...
You would think that testing media compatibility might be
at or near of the top of the testing list for an editing program.
I would hate to speculate that such a seemingly negligent approach
to media testing for CS6 was in fact a deliberate effort to create an
artificial impetus for users to move to the CC Subscription model.
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77. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
JSS1138 May 27, 2013 11:56 AM (in response to joe bloe premiere)Are you entirely confident that the AVCHD bug has truly been resolved in the new Creative Cloud Subscription release?
I haven't used it yet, so I only know what Adobe has said.
Do you think Adobe tested multiple forms of possibly problematic media types (spanned or not) in order to make this claim for CC?
I would assume they've made tests with the same media they used to verify the problem in CS6.
If yes, then why would you think the same degree of testing was apparently not performed prior to releasing CS6?
I have no idea how this bug slipped through. Maybe they only tested shorter clips. I mean, prior to CS6 there's never been a reason to suspect that longer clips would behave any differently than shorter ones. I think it'd be unreasonable for Adobe to test every single possible combination of variables that can be accomplished with PP. It'd take so long that the product would never get released.
I would hate to speculate that such a seemingly negligent approach to media testing for CS6 was in fact a deliberate effort to create an artificial impetus for users to move to the CC Subscription model.
Honestly, that smacks of paranoid conspiracy. My suspicion is that Adobe made the decision to move to subscription only well after the release of CS6. And I don't get the impression that the Premiere Pro development team is that unethical a bunch.
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78. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
joe bloe premiere May 27, 2013 12:02 PM (in response to JSS1138)Honestly, that smacks of paranoid conspiracy.
Thanks for the candid reply, Jim.
If it's an honest mistake, they should make good with a CS6 update.
Back to the topic of this thread...
Surely Adobe has developed a list of problematic cameras and/or
media types while in the process of reproducing the CS6 bug,
and while fixing it in the CC release.
It would be very helpful for CS6 users to be able to specifically
identify the problematic cameras and/or media types in order to make
informed decisions when purchasing a camera, or when receiving
media files with the intent of editing in Premiere CS6.
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79. Re: CS6 / AVCHD / Spanned Clip Bug / What Cameras And Media Types Are Affected?
JSS1138 May 27, 2013 12:09 PM (in response to joe bloe premiere)If it's an honest mistake, they should make good with a CS6 update.
I agree. More so now that CS6 will be the last perpetual license you can buy.






