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      • 800. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
        Pauls Sloss Community Member

        rpearson1 wrote:

         

         

        I want to own my software? I have recently downloaded trials of Bibble, Apeture, (can any one suggest an alternative to ID?

         

         

        Quark XPress

        • 801. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
          Brntoki Community Member

          MikeChambers wrote:

           

          Brntoki wrote:

           

          Again, this keeps coming back to what is really motivating Adobe. Every line of reasoning seems suspect at best.

           

          I am curious about what you think is motivating Adobe?

           

          mike chambers

           

          mesh@adobe.com

           

          "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10

           

          This is a money grab. Nothing more.

           

          Evil? You bet your sweet bipee!

           

          When someone takes the fundamental selling point of something and twists it into an extortionist scheme, that's evil. If Adobe wants to avoid looking evil, they will have to make it completely obvious that future file access isn't realistically possible without paying more. The point of Adobe software is tweakability. Non-destructive layers are fundamental. But that is the very thing that keeps one tied to future payments. Stop paying and you don't only lose the ability to create new teakable and non-desturctively edited files, but lose that advantage for all of your past work (that you already paid for the advantage of future tweaking): Down the drain!

           

          So, we pay initially for the advantage of future tweakability, only to lose the advantage we already paid for if we fail to keep paying.

           

          It's so twisted.

          • 802. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
            Brntoki Community Member

            MikeChambers wrote:

             

             

            However, more practically, over time more and more functionality in the desktop app will be based on, and or require access to services made available via Creative Cloud.

             

             

            mike chambers

            mesh@adobe.com

             

            But that isn't a necessity. You're only stating a fact that will result if Adobe goes through with their plan. This isn't an argument for the cloud, just a result that will ensue.

            • 803. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
              Jeff_Know1 Community Member

              I'm pretty sure this will be my last post here, I have other programs to learn now. It's time for me to move on and accept that the people in charge of the decision making at Adobe have lost their minds.

               

              These two posts sum up my opinion without too much ranting:

              http://forums.adobe.com/message/5360927#5360927

              http://forums.adobe.com/message/5370649#5370649

               

               

              In May 2009 I purchased a CS4 Design Premium license for myself since I was no longer in a company where the software was provided for me. I upgraded to CS5.5 Design Premium in late 2011.

               

              There was a "Hurry up before the introduction price expires in august 2012" deal to join the Creative Cloud.

               

              So... slightly younger and definitely more naive me joined the Creative Cloud in August 2012, and have now cancelled it in May 2013. This is only a 9 month period. And yet there are so many files I now rely on. I literally went through every single PSD file in this 9 month period and opened them in CS5.5 to see if I could cancel my subscription without losing access to any of my work. There were a couple of problems, but nothing I couldn't fix.

               

              This made me fully aware of the dangers of a subscription only model. There really is no turning back if you subscribe for too long. Right now there is still CS6, but that is it for the future. A couple of years from now it won't be so easy to convert your files so they open up in earlier (perpetual) versions.

               

              It doesn't matter how great Adobe's vision is for the future. It doesn't matter how great the new features are. It doesn't matter how great it is to have access to ALL the programs. All this doesn't matter if you do not provide a fallback mechanism for customers. We need to be able to leave the Cloud with a recent version of the software. Without something like this I simply cannot allow myself to join and be taken hostage for the rest of my life. Adobe cannot be trusted like this.

               

              I purchased CS4 four years ago. I'm only 28 now... with the current economic situation I have decades ahead of me before I can retire. That's a really long time to be chained to Adobe without a safety net to fall back on. Way too long.

               

              Mike Chambers, thank you for your participation in this thread. I can't say I agree with you... but I appreciate you joining in and stating Adobe's new direction and answering questions.

               

              And thanks everybody for fighting against this move by Adobe. In a normal world we wouldn't even have to say these basic things over and over and over.... but hey, it's not a normal world.

               

              Cya,

              Jeff.

              • 804. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                Marcus Koch Community Member

                MikeChambers wrote:

                 

                Marcus Koch wrote:

                 

                Mike, you and Adobe are trying to tell us conctanly that you technically can't create perpetual licenses,

                Please read my comment, which you quoted:

                 

                "We haven't said that we "cannot" do perpetual, we have said that given that we believe the right direction for the future is around the Creative Cloud model, we are going to focus on making that a sucess."

                 

                mike chambers

                 

                mesh@adobe.com

                Mike, you write the future is around the Creative Cloud model. The Creative Cloud is not a model. It is a marketing name to smooth over the term subscription model. Having future features running or files stored now on Adobe servers (which is what the cloud means) is an idependent technical concept and has no inherent ties to a payment model. So am I correct, if I clearify your statement into:

                 

                "We haven't said that we "cannot" do perpetual, we have said that given that we believe the right direction for the future is around the Creative Cloud subscription model, we are going to focus on making that a sucess."

                 

                If I'm wrong please give us all a serious reason why Adobe can't focus on cloud features while allowing it's users to have perpetual liecenses. So far Adobe and you completely failed to explain this.

                • 805. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                  Marcus Koch Community Member

                  MikeChambers wrote:

                   

                  Marcus Koch wrote:


                  1. You think one way (Adobe’s way) fits all. That is not the case. There are many different preferences, requirements and restrictions (legal, security, work processes, etc.).

                  Sorry, Mike, I can’t buy your vision. I just see greed and ignorance, which the latter is the worst.

                   

                  We have never said this model is for everyone, and understand that at the end of the day, some users won't go in this direction with us. We are working to address some of the concerns, but again, some users may decide that Creative Cloud is not the model for them. We understand that.

                   

                  Ultimately, we have to provide clear value in what we are building, or we will fail. Providing that value is what we are focusing on.

                   

                  mike chambers

                   

                  mesh@adobe.com

                   

                  Hi Mike,

                   

                  you replied to one of my 10 points. What is about the other 9?

                   

                  Marcus

                  • 806. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                    Marcus Koch Community Member

                    MikeChambers wrote:

                     

                    Mike Ornellas wrote:

                     

                    The huge problem I see with the new cloud idiotology is that you don't have a fall back application to go to if the most current build is screwed up in some way for your work environment.

                     

                    The software has to be perfect every time which is a tall order. Adobe just put the rope around their neck...

                     

                    You don't have to apply updates, and if you need to go back to an older version, we make archived versions avaiable (beginning with CS6).

                     

                    mike chambers

                     

                    mesh@adobe.com

                     

                    Mike, can you please clearify this? As fas as I understand from the current creative cloud and the application manager I can only download upgrades, but I can not revert back to an older version. InDesign or Photoshop have had updates with additional features since CS6 was introduced. There were also bug fixes. So one of those updates breaks my workflow. How can I go back to the previous version right now?

                    • 807. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                      bababongatwo Community Member

                      Absolutely agree!

                      • 808. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                        bababongatwo Community Member

                        "We have never said this model is for everyone, and understand that at the end of the day, some users won't go in this direction with us."

                         

                         

                        "some users..."? & " a few are not ready for the cloud"?
                        Hm. LOL?
                        Let´s see.

                        • 809. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                          hershd777 Community Member

                          little bit of irony to the name of this thread.  The cloud is going to be perpetual, just for them

                          • 810. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                            sharpshooterltd Community Member

                            Here's an interesting article containing what appears to be an acknowledgement that Adobe's switch to the subscription-only CC model is not going to be acceptable to a broad swathe of its customer base:

                             

                            http://www.macworld.com/article/2040845/adobe-vp-says-creative-cloud-is-a-big-bet-but-allo ws-for-better-tools-in-the-future.html

                             

                            And for anyone who is on the fence, here's a little titbit of information which may help you decide whether or not to take the leap (and which would seem to confirm my suspicion that CS7 was cancelled because many of the applications that have been around for a while have been brought pretty much as far as they can be brought):

                             

                            "...there will be more emphasis on brand-new, razor-focused applications—such as the Edge line—rather than adding more and more functionality (and, some would say, bloat) to mature products."

                             

                            And finally:

                             

                            “There are other ideas and expectations that customers have that we are actively discussing internally—but more importantly with our advisors and customers (on the forums).”

                             

                            Don't be tempted, Adobe, to limit yourselves to your own forums. There's plently more anger out there for you to pick up on.

                            • 811. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                              PmPhotographic Community Member

                              Ive just read the link and am astounded by the comment if correctly stated

                               

                              "“My only rational response to that is that we can’t [push up prices],” says Sharma. “It’s in our best interests to win our customers’ trust—as every month they’re going to be choosing whether they want to stay engaged with us or not. We have never been more vulnerable, in my opinion, than in [moving to a subscription model]. It’s a really big bet."

                               

                              For me, this is exactly what Adobe are doing with the proposed subscription model.  Is it different in the USA?

                               

                              Here in UK, as a user of Production Premium, my upgrade costs were around £350 over an 18 month cycle (appx)  The new subscription package would cost me £48 per month, or £864, an increase of appx 250%.  How can this not be viewed as a massive price rise which would be unacceptable in almost any other scenario I can think of (How about your utility bill being raised this much?)  I've seen absolutely nothing to explain or justify this increase, even forgetting about tie ins to adobe in the future

                              • 812. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                Greg Bohn Community Member

                                > If I'm wrong please give us all a serious reason why Adobe can't focus  on cloud features

                                > while allowing it's users to have perpetual liecenses.  So far Adobe and you completely

                                > failed to explain this.

                                 

                                  Whatever the overall plan is, it apparently involves everyone needing to be 'On the Cloud'.

                                 

                                  At very least, the lack of a perpetual license removes the alternative (as well as being a lock-in mechanism to make it harder to leave). The subscription model gives them a constant flow of revenue from the 'captive' members. (The "only one-back" limitation seems to have been only the first step in the revenue enhancement prong of their plan).

                                 

                                   If you leave the perpetual license (at near traditional cost), then you remove some of the bars from the gilded cage.

                                • 813. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                  CameraAnn Community Member
                                  “My only rational response to that is that we can’t [push up prices],” says Sharma. “It’s in our best interests to win our customers’ trust—as every month they’re going to be choosing whether they want to stay engaged with us or not.
                                  We have never been more vulnerable, in my opinion, than in [moving to a subscription model]. It’s a really big bet."

                                   

                                   

                                  Unfortunately his CEO may have a very clear idea of exactly how the tossed coin will land and is apparently hedging his personal Bets accordingly?

                                   

                                  http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/adbe/insider-trades/sells

                                  [Scroll down to the second half of the page.]

                                   

                                  At the expense of his Company, its Stock-holders, his Employees, and his Customers?


                                  --------

                                   

                                  The Cloud could become a success for Adobe — but ONLY if they re-design the complete concept:

                                   

                                  Reduce subscription prices (to be in line with what Customers have been accustomed to paying for each Upgrade on an every-Release basis);

                                   

                                  Introduce Bundled Packages and pricing that reflect on the contents and upgrade prices that were charged for the integrated CS6 Suites;


                                  and above all, provide a way for Customers to buy-out from the Cloud scheme with a Safe Exit Parachute to a traditional Perpetual Licence for the current version.

                                   

                                  Do that and the whole picture changes: I believe that many Customers who are currently totally rejecting the Cloud, would agree to Subscribe if those changes were made.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  • 814. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                    urdaddi Community Member

                                    Marcus Koch wrote:

                                     

                                    MikeChambers wrote:

                                     

                                    Mike Ornellas wrote:

                                     

                                    The huge problem I see with the new cloud idiotology is that you don't have a fall back application to go to if the most current build is screwed up in some way for your work environment.

                                     

                                    The software has to be perfect every time which is a tall order. Adobe just put the rope around their neck...

                                     

                                    You don't have to apply updates, and if you need to go back to an older version, we make archived versions avaiable (beginning with CS6).

                                     

                                    mike chambers

                                     

                                    mesh@adobe.com

                                     

                                    Mike, can you please clearify this? As fas as I understand from the current creative cloud and the application manager I can only download upgrades, but I can not revert back to an older version. InDesign or Photoshop have had updates with additional features since CS6 was introduced. There were also bug fixes. So one of those updates breaks my workflow. How can I go back to the previous version right now?

                                    The answer to your question is right there in the post - (beginning with CS6).

                                    • 815. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                      W_J_T Community Member

                                      TheCoroner9 wrote:

                                       

                                      "We believe that consumers should be able to freely access their favorite content and applications, regardless of what computer they have, what browser they like, or what device suits their needs. No company - no matter how big or how creative - should dictate what you can create, how you create it, or what you can experience on the web."


                                      -- Adobe founders Chuck Geschke and John Warnock 2010

                                       

                                      Chairmen of the Board

                                      http://www.adobe.com/leaders/chairmen.html

                                       

                                      Dr. Charles M. Geschke -- Has served as chairman of the board since 1997

                                      Dr. John E. Warnock -- Has served as chairman of the board since 1984

                                       

                                      Adobe Board of Directors

                                      http://www.adobe.com/leaders/board-directors.html

                                       

                                      Our board represents a broad range of industry and category expertise, including Adobe's two founders as co-chairmen.

                                       

                                      Dr. Charles M. Geschke

                                      Dr. John E. Warnock

                                      I appears that they no longer feel that way, 3 years later, with the Cloud Only approach.

                                      sharpo wrote:

                                       

                                      Here's an interesting article

                                      http://www.macworld.com/article/2040845/adobe-vp-says-creative-cloud-i s-a-big-bet-but-allows-for-better-tools-in-the-future.html

                                       

                                      What struck me the most about his comments was the following:

                                      “We have never been more vulnerable, in my opinion, than in [moving to a subscription model]. It’s a really big bet. We definitely do not want to be caught in the position of ‘the other man blinked’ with our customer base. The customer has more power over Adobe than they ever had before.” --- VP Mala Sharma

                                       

                                      So why are they then going against so many customers concerns and desires, as well as admitting they are ok with losing large numbers of loyal customers?

                                      • 816. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                        SoilentGreen Community Member

                                        So,  on 04/05/2013 Narayen Shantanu sold 225,000 of his 230,797 shares??

                                         

                                        Yes,   Interesting!

                                         

                                        If my company was making a move that I was positive would generate tons of new revenue,  that everyone loved, and everyone would be on board with,  I'd hold on and cash out later when the price was through the roof.   Instead, he dumped almost all of his???  I find his lack of faith disturbing!

                                        • 817. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                          [Jongware] Community Member

                                          CNET Survey: "Creative Site users loathe Adobe's subscriptions" (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57586530-92/survey-creative-suite-users-loathe-adobes-sub scriptions/)

                                           

                                          "Of 740 people using the CS6 generation of Creative Suite products, 76 percent said they planned never to move to the Creative Cloud. And of the 612 respondents using CS5.5 or earlier, only 8 percent said they'd decided to move to the Creative Cloud."

                                          • 818. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                            Marcus Koch Community Member

                                            urdaddi schrieb:

                                             

                                            Marcus Koch wrote:

                                             

                                            MikeChambers wrote:

                                             

                                            You don't have to apply updates, and if you need to go back to an older version, we make archived versions avaiable (beginning with CS6).

                                             

                                            mike chambers

                                             

                                            mesh@adobe.com

                                             

                                            Mike, can you please clearify this? As fas as I understand from the current creative cloud and the application manager I can only download upgrades, but I can not revert back to an older version. InDesign or Photoshop have had updates with additional features since CS6 was introduced. There were also bug fixes. So one of those updates breaks my workflow. How can I go back to the previous version right now?

                                            The answer to your question is right there in the post - (beginning with CS6).

                                            urdaddi, I don't see the answer. Many CS6 perpetual apps are not the the same anymore as the CS6 creative cloud versions. There have been a few bugfixes and also feature updates to those versions. The Adobe Application Manager of CC only allows to download an update. You can't deinstall any updated version. You can deinstall teh whole app, but if you install it again you will get the latest version. So I don't see how I can go back to older versions. I'm not talking about going from CS6 back to earlier versions or going back from the upcoming CC to CS6. I'm really concerned about the interim versions. If an update breaks an important workflow how can I go back resp. deinstall the dot-x update? This is a major issue. According to the cloud terms you agree that Adobe can install updates without your knowledge.

                                             

                                            Spending a lot of time reading and writing about the new CC I realize more and more that the perpetual license is not the only major problem. There are far more issues with the whole implementation, packaging and features of CC.

                                            • 819. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                              Marcus Koch Community Member

                                              I just found this whole article, about the advertisement campain of Adobe against Apple.

                                              http://www.sitepoint.com/adobe-answers-back-the-web-is-for-everybody/

                                               

                                              The Adobe web banner from 2010 is the biggest joke of the century.

                                               

                                              http://www.sitepoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flashwelovechoice.jpg

                                              I think we should use this a similar logo as avatars on all forums, facebook, etc.

                                              • 820. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                Marcus Koch Community Member

                                                W_J_T schrieb:

                                                 

                                                So why are they then going against so many customers concerns and desires, as well as admitting they are ok with losing large numbers of loyal customers?

                                                 

                                                I don't understand it either. Even when you take money as motive it makes no sense at all. So it leaves only the options that someone wants to crumble Adobe, someone of the board does this for personal interest.

                                                • 821. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                  Chazinbermuda Community Member

                                                  Adobe is clearly not listening to its customers

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  As well as voicing your concerns with your wallet some users have complained to

                                                   

                                                  The FTC https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ or your local Better business bureau


                                                  In europe the EU competition can be helpful email:
                                                  comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu


                                                  I have always been an advocate for Adobe products. I have personally sold three CS6 suites to colleagues... Adobe always met the needs of its customers... listened to them and this was followed by a continually evovling (awesome) product.

                                                  It is a very sad day for the small business and the freelancer who have put Adobe in the position they are today


                                                  • 822. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                    W_J_T Community Member

                                                    Marcus Koch wrote:

                                                     

                                                    I just found this whole article, about the advertisement campain of Adobe against Apple.

                                                    http://www.sitepoint.com/adobe-answers-back-the-web-is-for-everybody/

                                                     

                                                    The Adobe web banner from 2010 is the biggest joke of the century.

                                                     

                                                    http://www.sitepoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flashwelovechoice.jpg

                                                    I think we should use this a similar logo as avatars on all forums, facebook, etc.

                                                     

                                                    Yeah sadly Adobe has become a comedy of contradictions (outright lies?) over the last 2-3 years to their customers and themselves. I like the name of that article "The web is for everybody". I guess Adobe has since decided that they don't want there software to be for everybody and could care less. Here is a current thread of a US military deployed that without a perpetual license wont be able to use the software. Just another example of exclusion with this great new offering. Also what does this person do who was working away in this thread? This is the type of stuff and so much more (lots of threads) that could happen any minute with this system.

                                                    • 823. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                      W_J_T Community Member

                                                      [Jongware] wrote:

                                                       

                                                      CNET Survey: "Creative Site users loathe Adobe's subscriptions" (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57586530-92/survey-creative-suite-use rs-loathe-adobes-subscriptions/)

                                                       

                                                      "Of 740 people using the CS6 generation of Creative Suite products, 76 percent said they planned never to move to the Creative Cloud. And of the 612 respondents using CS5.5 or earlier, only 8 percent said they'd decided to move to the Creative Cloud."

                                                       

                                                      Small poll (imagine the actuality of all customers).

                                                       

                                                      Perhaps those are some of the customers Adobe says they "expect" to lose and are ok with losing? Hey it's not for everybody, some people wont like it Adobe says.

                                                      • 824. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                        Brntoki Community Member
                                                        http://www.sitepoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flashwelovechoice.jpg

                                                         

                                                        - As long as you choose what is in our best interest.

                                                         

                                                        Sincerely,

                                                        Adobe!

                                                        • 825. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                          W_J_T Community Member

                                                          Marcus Koch wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I just found this ...  Adobe ... biggest joke of the century.

                                                          http://www.sitepoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flashwelovechoice.jpg

                                                           

                                                          It gets even better check out the "Freedom of Choice" section of Adobe's site they recently had:

                                                           

                                                          Choice.jpg

                                                           

                                                          Adobe - Freedom of Choice - We Love Choice - Create without limits

                                                          http://web.archive.org/web/20110623095449/http://www.adobe.com/choice/

                                                           

                                                          • At Adobe, we believe that the open flow of creativity, ideas, and information should be limited only by the imagination. Innovation thrives when people are free to choose the technologies that enable them to openly express themselves and access information where and when they want.
                                                          • Openness is at Adobe's core.
                                                          • We believe open markets that allow developers, publishers, and consumers to make their own choices about how they create, distribute, and access content are essential to progress.
                                                          • We remain certain that open markets are the only way forward.

                                                          Thoughts on Open Markets - John Warnock and Chuck Geschke

                                                          http://web.archive.org/web/20110716073019/http://www.adobe.com/choice/openmarkets.html

                                                           

                                                          • As the founders of Adobe, we believe open markets are in the best interest of developers, content owners, and consumers.

                                                          • We believe that consumers should be able to freely access their favorite content and applications, regardless of what computer they have, what browser they like, or what device suits their needs. No company — no matter how big or how creative — should dictate what you can create, how you create it

                                                          • When markets are open, anyone with a great idea has a chance to drive innovation and find new customers. Adobe's business philosophy is based on a premise that, in an open market, the best products will win in the end

                                                          • In the end, we believe the question is really this: Who controls the World Wide Web (insert how you use your Software)? And we believe the answer is: nobody — and everybody, but certainly not a single company.

                                                           

                                                          So, Adobe and it's co-founders, John Warnock and Chuck Geschke each co-chairman of the Board, believe (once believed?) the following:

                                                           

                                                          • Freedom of choice

                                                          • We love choice

                                                          • Create without limits

                                                          • Openness is at Adobe's core

                                                          • We believe that the open flow of creativity, ideas, and information should be limited only by the imagination

                                                          • Innovation thrives when people are free to choose the technologies that enable them to openly express themselves and access information where and when they want

                                                          • We believe open markets that allow developers, publishers, and consumers to make their own choices ... are essential to progress.

                                                          • We remain certain that open markets are the only way forward

                                                          • As the founders of Adobe, we believe open markets are in the best interest of developers, content owners, and consumers.

                                                          • We believe that consumers should be able to freely access their favorite content and applications ... suits their needs.

                                                          • No company — no matter how big or how creative — should dictate what you can create, how you create it

                                                          • When markets are open, anyone with a great idea has a chance to drive innovation and find new customers.

                                                          • Adobe's business philosophy is based on a premise that, in an open market, the best products will win in the end

                                                          • In the end, we believe the question is really this: Who controls the World Wide Web (insert how you use your Software)? And we believe the answer is: nobody — and everybody, but certainly not a single company.

                                                           

                                                          2013 welcome to Creative Cloud? Going completely against their own ideals and core values?

                                                          [Jongware] wrote:

                                                           

                                                          www.change.org


                                                          • 826. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                            Brntoki Community Member

                                                            W_J_T wrote:

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            So, Adobe and it's co-founders, John Warnock and Chuck Geschke each co-chairman of the Board, believe (once believed?) the following:

                                                             

                                                            • Freedom of choice

                                                            • We love choice

                                                            • Create without limits

                                                            • Openness is at Adobe's core

                                                            • We believe that the open flow of creativity, ideas, and information should be limited only by the imagination

                                                            • Innovation thrives when people are free to choose the technologies that enable them to openly express themselves and access information where and when they want

                                                            • We believe open markets that allow developers, publishers, and consumers to make their own choices ... are essential to progress.

                                                            • We remain certain that open markets are the only way forward

                                                            • As the founders of Adobe, we believe open markets are in the best interest of developers, content owners, and consumers.

                                                            • We believe that consumers should be able to freely access their favorite content and applications ... suits their needs.

                                                            • No company — no matter how big or how creative — should dictate what you can create, how you create it

                                                            • When markets are open, anyone with a great idea has a chance to drive innovation and find new customers.

                                                            • Adobe's business philosophy is based on a premise that, in an open market, the best products will win in the end

                                                            • In the end, we believe the question is really this: Who controls the World Wide Web (insert how you use your Software)? And we believe the answer is: nobody — and everybody, but certainly not a single company.


                                                             

                                                            Glad to know that.

                                                             

                                                            Presumably then, John and Chuck won't have a problem that I just submitted this to the FTC:

                                                             

                                                            Adobe graphics and design software is industry leading/standard on almost every front.

                                                             

                                                            Part of the reason for this is their software enables editing that is non-destructive, can be undone, tweaked, etc., until final output. This is massively beneficial to users, who, quite often, need to reproduce their work many years after it was originally produced.

                                                             

                                                            Adobe has always offered perpetual licenses for their software packages, at "professional" prices (understandably). Recently, however, they have changed completely to offering only a subscription based license whereby, if one were to stop paying, they lose access to the software.

                                                             

                                                            This, however, should be illegal. The software is important to working creatives/professionals for the very reason of being able to tweak and modify files years later for continued output. So, the consumer pays handsomely for this benefit. Until now, that has been fine. But with the subscription model, I lose the benefit I initially am paying for if I don't continue to pay Adobe systems forever in the future.

                                                             

                                                            With perpetual licensing, consumers could decide to move to another software vendor, keeping the software industry competitive in this graphics/design sector, and not lose the ability to use files created with Adobe's software because they had a "hard" copy and perpetual license that was bought and paid for. Since the software is understandably proprietary, files are not able to be used with other vendors' offerings.

                                                             

                                                            Now, however, with a subscription based model, Adobe is forcing its customers to be stuck to their product forever, or lose their work. This is an issue for an antitrust suit, because other software developers are discouraged from competing by the fact that, even if they create superior software at even better prices, existing Adobe customers are not free to move to another platform without still paying for an Adobe subscription so they can still use their previous work. Other software companies can have no expectation that the potential consumer base has any real free choice to purchase their offerings.

                                                             

                                                            For Adobe Systems to avoid this being cause for an antitrust case, they must make it plain and unavoidably obvious up front to consumers that when purchasing this subscription service, a main benefit of it is rendered completely useless without indefinite continued payment for the subscription service; when payment stops, a main benefit of using the software is useless, not for current projects only, but for projects saved from, potentially, years past. Adobe would then have to further detail in precisely what ways the user would be losing their work.

                                                            • 827. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                              jbjones Community Member

                                                              Brntoki wrote:

                                                               

                                                              Now, however, with a subscription based model, Adobe is forcing its customers to be stuck to their product forever, or lose their work. This is an issue for an antitrust suit, because other software developers are discouraged from competing by the fact that, even if they create superior software at even better prices, existing Adobe customers are not free to move to another platform without still paying for an Adobe subscription so they can still use their previous work. Other software companies can have no expectation that the potential consumer base has any real free choice to purchase their offerings.

                                                               

                                                              For Adobe Systems to avoid this being cause for an antitrust case, they must make it plain and unavoidably obvious up front to consumers that when purchasing this subscription service, a main benefit of it is rendered completely useless without indefinite continued payment for the subscription service; when payment stops, a main benefit of using the software is useless, not for current projects only, but for projects saved from, potentially, years past. Adobe would then have to further detail in precisely what ways the user would be losing their work.

                                                               

                                                              I'm not sure you have a case there. There is nothing (except money) preventing a customer from owning software from Adobe AND other companies at the same time. Essentially you are trying to make a case that proprietary file formats should be illegal because you can't open files from Adobe with the competition and therefore need to maintain your subscription. There isn't anything intrinsically illegal about about having proprietary files or offering a subscription only service.

                                                               

                                                              However the fact that Adobe is a near monoply could change those rules slightly by the fact that their monoploy status compels people to adopt the new subscription service simply to continue to stay in business.

                                                               

                                                              On the other hand the fact that CS6 is still available probably negates that monopoly problem for the near future.

                                                              • 828. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                Brntoki Community Member

                                                                jbjones wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                I'm not sure you have a case there. There is nothing (except money) preventing a customer from owning software from Adobe AND other companies at the same time. Essentially you are trying to make a case that proprietary file formats should be illegal because you can't open files from Adobe with the competition and therefore need to maintain your subscription. There isn't anything intrinsically illegal about about having proprietary files or offering a subscription only service.

                                                                 

                                                                However the fact that Adobe is a near monoply could change those rules slightly by the fact that their monoploy status compels people to adopt the new subscription service simply to continue to stay in business.

                                                                 

                                                                On the other hand the fact that CS6 is still available probably negates that monopoly problem for the near future.

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                I basically agree with you, but for two reasons still think this is a real problem for Adobe, because:

                                                                 

                                                                1) One of the core reasons for consumers to choose Adobe to begin with is for "future proof" output.

                                                                 

                                                                Combined with:

                                                                 

                                                                2) Consumers are likely not aware that one of the core reasons they are choosing to use Adobe's software necessarily entails that they continue to pay for it forever in the future.

                                                                 

                                                                As I said, if Adobe is willing to make this unavoidably obvious to subscribers, fine. Of course, they can't do this as people will not agree.

                                                                 

                                                                I understand about CS6 still being available, but really that is irrelevant, unless Adobe is willing to be bound to make it work with every new system/OS in the future, and not just the next major one. They'd have to do it forever as long as customers insisted. But then, what is the point for Adobe's move to the Cloud only? They'll never sell it if users know that they cannot stop supporting CS6. So it seems that the only way for Adobe to avoid an antitrust issue is to shoot themselves in the foot in the process.

                                                                • 829. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                  Brntoki Community Member

                                                                  jbjones wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  However the fact that Adobe is a near monoply could change those rules slightly by the fact that their monoploy status compels people to adopt the new subscription service simply to continue to stay in business.

                                                                   

                                                                  But this assumes that consumers are already aware of the problem of future file editability. Even if people are only "compelled" by the deceptive "cheap" monthly payment system, if they are not fully aware of their work becoming uneditable in the future, and they (would) then feel tied to Adobe even in the face of as good/better software at even better prices/more attractive licensing, then Adobe has in fact discouraged competition in an underhanded way.

                                                                   

                                                                  What does it mean to be "free" to choose if you not only have to pay for the service/software you're moving to, but also for the service/software you're trying to move away from? There is no real freedom there.

                                                                  • 830. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                    bababongatwo Community Member

                                                                    "...but hey, it's not a normal world."

                                                                     

                                                                    Seems so. I also made my point behind.

                                                                     

                                                                    So thanks again to my brush creators last decades (programmers only!)

                                                                     

                                                                    Bye.

                                                                    • 831. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                      W_J_T Community Member

                                                                      bababongatwo wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      It seems and feels, like you would like to have a part of the big-cake (all the companies want) called clients data and knowledge about him. You had a look to the others, who were a little bit faster than you (Google, Facebook, Apple...), but were mostly not as radical as you now.

                                                                       

                                                                      Kind of like this...

                                                                      Internet giants deny granting government 'direct access' to servers

                                                                      http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-apple-nsa-idUSBRE9551EU20130607

                                                                       

                                                                      The newspaper reported that the U.S. National Security Agency and the FBI are "tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies" through a secret program known as PRISM, and extracting massive amounts of data including audio, video, photographs, emails, documents and connection logs. It named nine companies, including Apple, Facebook, Microsoft Corp and Google Inc, as having joined the secret program.

                                                                       

                                                                      Hmmm... sounds like Adobe's cloud concept, maybe soon they will be on the list also? The list already includes most the companies Adobe seems to want to emulate in many ways.

                                                                       

                                                                      PS: This made me laugh pretty hard when I read it. -- bababongatwo wrote: Hey, where are you? Spaceship Enterprise? Higher above any cloud?

                                                                      • 832. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                        Chazinbermuda Community Member

                                                                        In the US monopolies are quite legal until they start acting like a monopoly... in europe adobe have broken several laws... the creation of the cloud is exclusionary.. it prevents people in poor or remote areas from accessing new software. The price hike is certainly exclusionary and comes at a time for many who are still struggling in a bad economy ... owning or being able to still purchase CS6 doesnt negate the fact adobe is still a monopoly and is acting like one....

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        The cloud is not a new revolutionary product... it is a pseudo cloud that still requires users download the bulk of its software and install it locally... a perpetual licence could still be used with an option to use cloud services for a subscription.

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        very frustrating situation

                                                                        • 833. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                          jbjones Community Member

                                                                          W_J_T wrote:

                                                                          Internet giants deny granting government 'direct access' to servers

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          Hmmm... sounds like Adobe's cloud concept, maybe soon they will be on the list also? The list already includes most the companies Adobe seems to want to emulate in many ways.

                                                                           

                                                                          PS: This made me laugh pretty hard when I read it. -- bababongatwo wrote: Hey, where are you? Spaceship Enterprise? Higher above any cloud?

                                                                           

                                                                          Well I guess if all the big names start jumping on this cloud concept, with few to none left offering stand alone desktop apps, we can assume that there must be someone behind the scenes pulling the strings. Someone, trying to get everything in the cloud for some kind of advanced oppression goal.

                                                                          • 834. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                            jbjones Community Member

                                                                            Chazinbermuda wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            In the US monopolies are quite legal until they start acting like a monopoly... in europe adobe have broken several laws... the creation of the cloud is exclusionary.. it prevents people in poor or remote areas from accessing new software. The price hike is certainly exclusionary and comes at a time for many who are still struggling in a bad economy ... owning or being able to still purchase CS6 doesnt negate the fact adobe is still a monopoly and is acting like one....

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            The cloud is not a new revolutionary product... it is a pseudo cloud that still requires users download the bulk of its software and install it locally... a perpetual licence could still be used with an option to use cloud services for a subscription.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            very frustrating situation

                                                                             

                                                                            That reminds me of a comment I sent to Adobe a while back about the cloud storage on the early Photoshop.com. I stated that this trend of having files spread out over a dozen servers was not the way to go. Everyone, especially the big names needed to allow us to use whatever cloud drive we wanted, i.e. Dropbox, Google Drive, Box.net, Skydrive, etc. For cloud computing to become a really viable platform we needed to be able to have all our files in a central location and potentially accessible by multiple web apps.

                                                                             

                                                                            Adobe apparently went the oposite direction. Not only can we not plug the Dropbox backend into the Creative Cloud interface, but now Adobe's storage space comes with the apps. No option of saving money if you don't need their cloud features.

                                                                            • 835. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                              sharpshooterltd Community Member

                                                                              That CNET survey is fundamentaly flawed. It's based on the misconception that all CC apps will be updated frequently with new features:

                                                                               

                                                                              "One part of the sales pitch is that Adobe will be able to update its software more frequently, shipping features when they're done rather than backing them up across many products until a new release of more than a dozen major programs is ready." (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57586530-92/survey-creative-suite-users-loathe-adobes-sub scriptions/)

                                                                               

                                                                              Indeed, Adobe has cultivated this misconception from the very start of their CC-only marketing campaign:

                                                                               

                                                                              "the new [CC-only] applications and services provide a workflow where:

                                                                                 •  You have access to the full set of Adobe’s creative tools, with frequent updates" (http://www.adobe.com/cc/letter.html)

                                                                               

                                                                              "In order to accelerate the rate at which we deliver new features and services, and to ensure that we do so with the highest level of quality, we are focusing all of our efforts on Creative Cloud." (http://www.adobe.com/cc/letter.html)

                                                                               

                                                                              However, Adobe VP Mala Sharma has let the cat out of the bag:

                                                                               

                                                                              "Sharma says that there will be more emphasis on brand-new, razor-focused applications—such as the Edge line—rather than adding more and more functionality (and, some would say, bloat) to mature products." (http://www.macworld.com/article/2040845/adobe-vp-says-creative-cloud-is-a-big-bet-but-allo ws-for-better-tools-in-the-future.html)

                                                                               

                                                                              I wonder how many CNET survey participants would have responded differently if they had known that CS stalwarts such as Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign (I'm assuming these are some of the "mature products" Sharma refers to) will, in reality, see little or no new features.

                                                                              • 836. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                W_J_T Community Member

                                                                                ^

                                                                                 

                                                                                Yes when you begin connecting the dots for this whole saga, the picture that is revealed is absurd smoke and mirrors behind the empty curtain at Adobe.

                                                                                • 837. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                  Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

                                                                                  Adobe, connect the dots please.


                                                                                  Connect.png

                                                                                  I wonder if they can do it.

                                                                                  • 838. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                    ValentinOcheda Community Member

                                                                                    Adobe_CC.JPGI

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'm against CC because I have to pay a lot for stuff i don't use...

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Regards Valentin

                                                                                    • 839. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                      Biggles Lamb Community Member

                                                                                      Harm

                                                                                       

                                                                                      You are being unkind 

                                                                                       

                                                                                      My 6 year old Grand Daughter can do the puzzle.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      You know very well that Adobe Senior management does not have the required level of management skills to solve such simple puzzles

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Nice one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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