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      • 920. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
        Pauls Sloss Community Member

         

        Maintaining both the subscription model and the perpetual license model will increase the support and development overhead Adobe would have to deploy, since each of those models would have to be dealt with separately.

         

        There is no reason why Adobe can maintain both a perpetual model and a subscription model with the same CC product. Ceasing a subscription doesn't remove the desktop software from your computer, it just deactivates it. It is not a big step for Adobe to allow a buyout option which stops the deactivation. The rest of the services on the cloud are exactly that; services. And those services would cease at the end of a subscription. Apple & Microsoft manage this with their cloud offerings without any problem.

         

         

        One further advantage is that the subscription model will be effective in combating piracy. Not the sort of piracy where the software is hacked to circumvent its protection, but the piracy where someone buys the software then installs it on their computer, their brothers computer, their brother's girlfriend's computer, their brother's girlfirend's hairdresser's computer and 30 other random people. Buying one license and installing it on every computer in the company (wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more). CC will put a stop to all that, and that is the REAL reason for the outcry.

         

        You can't buy one copy of creative suite (eg v2, 3, 4, 5 or 6) and use it simultaneously on multiple computers. The version you use has to be activated online and can only activate if the other installed versions are deactivated. There is no difference between CC and CS in this regard.

        • 921. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
          Terrachild Community Member

          I take it back.

          Everyone listen to Diablo.

          Now he is making sense.

          Diablo, you must have been high a few posts back.

          You're back on track now!

          • 922. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
            bitm07 Community Member

            Yellomokara Wrote

             

            Likewise if your circumstances change and you no longer need access to the software, you can just cancel with the result that your overall expenditure would be a fraction of what you would have paid if you bought a perpetual licence (they dont give you a refund on a perpetual license if you decide you no longer need the software)

            With a perpetual licence you don't get a refund but you do get a licence that can be legally transferred/sold, for good money on ebay etc.  That's a big problem with CC for me, Adobe are taking your money but you are not getting a tangible product in return. If Adobe provided this after a set period of time, thus providing a parachute location where files created in CC can be safely exported if you cancel your subscription.  CC would be a much more attractive option for me.   As it is as someone who was about to purchase Photoshop CS6 when CC was announced,  I am faced with the prospect of purchasing CS6 before subscribing to CC to safe guard my files.  Not an attractive proposition and definitely not a money saver.  You are probably thinking that you will stick for CC for life, so purchasing CS6 is not necessary.  But what happens if a better alternative becomes available in the future, nothings for ever.

             

             

            From:Yellamokara <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

             

            To: bitm07 <andrewjohnray@btinternet.com>

            Sent: Thursday, 13 June 2013, 6:23

            Subject: No perpetual licenses are you serious?

             

             

             

            Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious? created by Yellamokara in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion

            • 923. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
              Butch_M Community Member

              Yellamokara wrote:

               

              Maintaining both the subscription model and the perpetual license model will increase the support and development overhead Adobe would have to deploy, since each of those models would have to be dealt with separately. This is costly, represents duplicated efforts and is not efficient for Adobe.

               

              Really? Perhaps you should do a little more research. Your ignorance of the situation is only surpassed by your arrogance that you really think you understand what is going on.

               

              Since the introduction of Creative Suite 6 in 2012 ... Adobe sold 4.1 million Suite installs ... and 1.5 million individual point product installs ... but only sold 500,000 CC subscriptions over the same time period ... Adobe only expects to have 1.25 million CC subscribers by the end of Q42013 ... they don't expect to surpass the 3 million mark until late in 2015 ... if CC is so freaking wonderful ... why is it going to take two to three years to match their sales of Creative Suite 6 in one year? ... Especially considering it is the only game in town to move forward with Adobe products. These are Adobe's very own numbers offered at the MAX announcement ... BEFORE ... the "outcry" ... it would seem they may have underestimated the overall acceptance of CC once it became a forced issue.

               

              Sure it costs more for Adobe to support both licensing models ... but based upon Adobe's own projections ... if CC is such a great deal, why is it that the folks signing up are in the extreme minority of users?

               

              And ... Piracy is the reason for the "outcry" ... Please ... pirates don't care one bit when developers change licensing policies ... they just go to work seeking a new method to circumvent the activation ... it's the folks who have been paying their way that are upset ... not the freeloaders ... after all, pirates have nothing invested ... why would they bother to complain?

              • 924. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                Andy Bay Community Member
                The vast majority of people who use these tools to earn a living are going to be using reasonably current software and reasonably current hardware, for the simple reason that time is money and a small investment in tools saves much more through more efficient use of that time.

                 

                 

                If you have a well established workflow, you risk breaking it with certain upgrades. Adobe is notorious for changing/removing functionality without asking anybody. If you have a good workflow, jumping after every pointless upgrade might actually cost you more time. Upgrades might also hurt your other investments related to the software. I'm still using CS4 on one machine, because my expensive AE Trapocode plugin pack doesn't work on 64bit software.

                 

                 

                If people are using this software for business purposes then we are talking about a positive/negative difference in cost (depending on what your upgrade shedule is like) amounting to a couple of dollars a month averaged over time. It is absurd to suggest that such a small difference is going to impact adversely on the future of a business. You probably spend considerably more a week on coffee than the sum total of that averaged difference.

                 

                 

                You can make that same ridiculous argument for just about anything. I could easily afford paying 10 $ for a cup of coffee. It doesn't mean I should do that. I could easily pay 100 $/month for software and spend less on something else. Doesn't mean I will ever do that.

                 

                 

                An advantage of the pricing structure of the cloud is that you can buy access to the software on a monthly basis as well, which makes it financially very attractive to a production house where the need for the software varies significantly over time.

                 

                 

                I give you this point. If you are running a large house with tens of employees, each of which are skilled in Adobe software, but usually do something else in their workday, it might actually make sense. But how many operations like this do you think there is? In a normal work environment people are focused on their small subset of skills and it's not like everyone will be able to do professional Photoshop work when there is some huge project. Do you think many companies will say: "We have a big project now, let's rent 20 x more Dreamweaver so that even the video editors and marketing people can code with it". Seriously, I don't see this happening much.

                 

                 

                A major factor many of you are overlooking as that the pricing structure of CC makes the software MORE accessible to a wider customer base since it eliminates the upfront investment that might otherwise be too much (this was true in my case, for example).

                 

                 

                Only if the customers are stupid enough not to calculate the yearly/long term costs. it would still be much cheaper to fund a perpetual license with a loan or a credit card. Especially if you used Production premium or Design premium. Or ESPECIALLY if you did not think every upgrade had enough merit to be worth buying it and decided to skip some versions. So this is only true if the customers are idiots who cant't do even the most basic math.

                 

                 

                In summary, CC creates flexibility for Adobes loyal customers, and it makes the products more accessible to a wider range of potential customers.

                 

                 

                Funny, why is it exactly the loyal customers that are complaining if there is all this great flexibility? Do you think they don't understand what is being offered here? The ugly truth is that Adobe wants to take away the most important flexibility  customers can have: the ability to vote with their wallet and decide for themselves if the upgrade is worth the money.

                 

                 

                Maintaining both the subscription model and the perpetual license model will increase the support and development overhead Adobe would have to deploy, since each of those models would have to be dealt with separately. This is costly, represents duplicated efforts and is not efficient for Adobe.

                 

                 

                As was already pointed out, this is just not true. The software stays on the computer and Adobe could easily let it stay functional for a fee if they wanted to.

                 

                 

                One further advantage is that the subscription model will be effective in combating piracy. Not the sort of piracy where the software is hacked to circumvent its protection, but the piracy where someone buys the software then installs it on their computer, their brothers computer, their brother's girlfriend's computer, their brother's girlfirend's hairdresser's computer and 30 other random people. Buying one license and installing it on every computer in the company (wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more). CC will put a stop to all that, and that is the REAL reason for the outcry.

                 

                 

                Sorry to end like this, but the above statement really shows you have no idea about how Adobe software actually works. That really takes out your credibility on the issue.

                • 925. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                  Jeff A Wright Employee Hosts

                  Diabolo please be respectful of other community members when participating in discussions in the Adobe forums.

                  • 926. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                    bababongatwo Community Member


                    Jeff A Wright schrieb:

                     

                    Diabolo please be respectful of other community members when participating in discussions in the Adobe forums.

                     

                    Huh????
                    What did he say???? Didn´t harm anybody????

                    Or does Adobe want critical voices to wear a muzzle here?


                    Why don´t all these half-truth and ignoring reality comments have to be red-flaged?

                    • 927. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                      Jeff A Wright Employee Hosts

                      Bababongatwo I was referring to message #912 from Diabolo Venom within this discussion thread.

                      • 928. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                        Diablo Venom Community Member

                        By calling people out removes protectionism for those who don't really need it. They can come and speak for themselves if they dare to. Sad thing is, most just don't care when you are at that removed level of control in life. Human nature is in general selfish, childish and simply shameful.

                         

                        Let's cut another leg off and see if you can walk. The decision to go solely subscription is a practice in survival.

                        • 929. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                          CameraAnn Community Member

                          >>>>>

                           

                          adobe is in serious trouble as evident by the senior management selling off large sums of their stock ownership. If the people that are in control of the company have little faith in their decisions, then why should the rest of the employees, let alone its customers want to continue to pay into a cartel model with one direction which is down?

                          >>>>>>>

                           

                          There is a tournado hiding in this Cloud which could destroy everything in its path.

                           

                          At the moment, its sources are hidden in a corner office where senior corporate officers pursue their own megalomaniacal dreams regardless of the consequences; are hell-bent on mergers, acquisitions and expansionist plant-building which have no relationship to the company's traditional central business; and are totally deaf to any dissent.

                           

                          New hands are urgently needed on the steering wheel before an inevitable and fatal crash destroys everything that has been so painstakingly built over the past quarter century.

                          • 930. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                            Biggles Lamb Community Member

                            No matter what colour the sky is on their planet, no matter that they can count their IQ on the fingers of one hand, no matter how idiotic and simplistic they may be, no matter how they fail to understand simple mathematics; they are in fact interlectually challenged and as such they really should be receiving councilling

                             

                            However we may think the above about an individual but we must not say that their name is xxxxxxxxxx

                             

                             

                            • 931. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                              Diablo Venom Community Member

                              Everyone. All graphic related businesses need Adobe to be successful. The problem is, they have lost the rudder on the ship due to pressures they don't fully understand. We all love Adobe products. We count on them to make a living. They count on income to stay alive.

                               

                              To strike a balance is key to everyone's success. Unfortunately, there is no balance in the decision to go strictly subscription due to the lack of understanding of the markets they affect.

                               

                              Cleaning house is coming for Adobe.

                              • 932. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                bababongatwo Community Member

                                Jeff A Wright schrieb:

                                 

                                Bababongatwo I was referring to message #912 from Diabolo Venom within this discussion thread.

                                And????
                                "CEO gone"???

                                WtH this is an base to keep him quiet???
                                (Do you REALLY think, that´s against Netiquete? Again: Is this a forum to glorify Adobe?)

                                 

                                I think, it´s very clear, that this (CashCow) decision was made by leading board and not by employees, (which want users to work with the tools...)
                                So why is it not allowed to write disagreement?
                                The "tone"? Be sure -  you can find (very) much harder phrases out in the whole web. There is nearly nobody who is happy about that CashCow without Adobe (and as described in other posts - Mgmt board selling stock isn´t a sign that they are themselves...)

                                • 933. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                  Diablo Venom Community Member

                                  The Cloud is required to keep Adobe in business, Now and in the future.

                                   

                                  Cutting perpetual usage is just slicing the companies own throat.

                                  • 934. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                    CameraAnn Community Member

                                    Mgmt board selling stock isn´t a sign that they are themselves

                                     

                                    NO?

                                     

                                    This would indicate otherwise. Be sure to scroll down to the lower part of the page; and also look at the records for earlier months too:

                                     

                                    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/adbe/insider-trades/sells

                                    • 935. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                      bababongatwo Community Member

                                      Not sure, if I understood right (not a native speaker) - what I tried to say, was: A Mgmt board, which is selling it´s stock is not an indicator, that they trust into their own marketing bushwah. I think, they know exactly, which great risk is behind that CashCow for Adobe itself. So "No!" they are not lucky with CashCow themselves, as they try to get the max of their stock NOW (not believing, Adobe stock will rise in future). They don´t trust into their business model. They even don´t think it will rise their income (...as they promised to stack holders).

                                      • 936. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                        Yellamokara Community Member

                                        Butch_M wrote:

                                         

                                        Yellamokara wrote:

                                         

                                        Maintaining both the subscription model and the perpetual license model will increase the support and development overhead Adobe would have to deploy, since each of those models would have to be dealt with separately. This is costly, represents duplicated efforts and is not efficient for Adobe.

                                         

                                        Really? Perhaps you should do a little more research. Your ignorance of the situation is only surpassed by your arrogance that you really think you understand what is going on.

                                         

                                        Since the introduction of Creative Suite 6 in 2012 ... Adobe sold 4.1 million Suite installs ... and 1.5 million individual point product installs ... but only sold 500,000 CC subscriptions over the same time period ... Adobe only expects to have 1.25 million CC subscribers by the end of Q42013 ... they don't expect to surpass the 3 million mark until late in 2015 ... if CC is so freaking wonderful ... why is it going to take two to three years to match their sales of Creative Suite 6 in one year? ... Especially considering it is the only game in town to move forward with Adobe products. These are Adobe's very own numbers offered at the MAX announcement ... BEFORE ... the "outcry" ... it would seem they may have underestimated the overall acceptance of CC once it became a forced issue.

                                         

                                        Sure it costs more for Adobe to support both licensing models ... but based upon Adobe's own projections ... if CC is such a great deal, why is it that the folks signing up are in the extreme minority of users?

                                         

                                        And ... Piracy is the reason for the "outcry" ... Please ... pirates don't care one bit when developers change licensing policies ... they just go to work seeking a new method to circumvent the activation ... it's the folks who have been paying their way that are upset ... not the freeloaders ... after all, pirates have nothing invested ... why would they bother to complain?

                                         

                                        The answer to that is obvious: CS6 was introduced before CC, so it would sell more copies. You also need to understand that some people are used to the up front model, so that is what they do. As people become more comfortable with the advantages of CC, especially when it comes to cost efficiency, adoption will increase.

                                         

                                        Also, having made that big upfront payment, those with the perpetual license will be loath to move over to CC until they have "recovered" the cost through use, because it would mean paying twice for the same thing. That effect will slow subscription adoption in the near term, but it does not invalidate the soundness of the model.

                                         

                                        The cost to Adobe for supporting both models stems from the need to do maintenance updates on older packages. Depending on how far back they go, they have to do this individually for every version they have published, which leads to a great deal of duplication of effort and significantly increases overhead. With CC this problem goes away since only the current version is supported (since that is the one everyone has). This will have a big impact on Adobe's overhead costs, making them more competitive, benefits of which will ultimately will flow through to users. The development efficiency will make it very difficult for another company with a perpetual licences model to compete effectively with them at the same price point, and that is allmost certainly the main motivation for Adobe to do this.

                                         

                                        As far as piracy is concerned, obviously the folk making and distributing hacked software won't care what model is used, but that is not how most pirated software is distributed - typically is done through ignoring the license usage terms as I explained previously, and it is those people who are the ones who mostly are upset because for them the days of free Adobe software are over.

                                        • 937. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                          CameraAnn Community Member

                                          The cost to Adobe for supporting both models stems from the need to do maintenance updates on older packages. Depending on how far back they go, they have to do this individually for every version they have published, which leads to a great deal of duplication of effort and significantly increases overhead.

                                          This is a false argument because the new subscription model offers absolutely no additional savings of either manpower nor time for Adobe in this regard.

                                           

                                          There is NO difference because older versions of the software have never been supported nor upgraded in any way once the subsequent version ships.

                                          • 938. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                            bababongatwo Community Member

                                            Yellamokara schrieb:

                                            As far as piracy is concerned, obviously the folk making and distributing hacked software won't care what model is used, but that is not how most pirated software is distributed - typically is done through ignoring the license usage terms as I explained previously, and it is those people who are the ones who mostly are upset because for them the days of free Adobe software are over.

                                            Piracy can be stoped the same way - with CS6 or with CashCow. It´s only necessary to call home, sometimes. No need for new distribution.

                                             

                                            And: Why isn´t Adobe writing here under it´s own name? Why taking an aka? Ashamed?

                                            • 939. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                              Butch_M Community Member

                                              Yellamokara wrote:

                                              The answer to that is obvious: CS6 was introduced before CC, so it would sell more copies. You also need to understand that some people are used to the up front model, so that is what they do. As people become more comfortable with the advantages of CC, especially when it comes to cost efficiency, adoption will increase.

                                               

                                              This is where you miss the mark by quite a bit ... of that group of CS6 Suite users, is the largest group of users that do upgrade at each and every opportunity ... yet only 12% rushed out to sign up for CC, why didn't those other 4.1 million see the overwheming advantages you tout for CC? ... and once again, using Adobe's very own numbers ... they only expect to have about 30% by the end of the year ... That's a 70% drop in sales over last year ...  and still only garner 73% of their annual sales (for 2012-13 cycle) after two years. You should ask why? Then reconsider your appraisal again ...

                                               

                                              Yellamokara wrote:

                                               

                                              The cost to Adobe for supporting both models stems from the need to do maintenance updates on older packages. Depending on how far back they go, they have to do this individually for every version they have published, which leads to a great deal of duplication of effort and significantly increases overhead. With CC this problem goes away since only the current version is supported (since that is the one everyone has). This will have a big impact on Adobe's overhead costs, making them more competitive, benefits of which will ultimately will flow through to users. The development efficiency will make it very difficult for another company with a perpetual licences model to compete effectively with them at the same price point, and that is allmost certainly the main motivation for Adobe to do this.

                                               

                                              Well ... boo hoo for Adobe ...

                                               

                                              Seriously though ... did you think I didn't comprehend your point the first time you offered it? You can repeat it 44 times ... it won't fix the flaws in your thinking. I even conceded that it would indeed cost more for Adobe to support both licensing models. However ... All businesses have their issues in serving their customers ... if you had ever been tasked with leading a business and meeting a payroll, you might have a better understanding that commerce is a virtual partnership ... businesses can't survive without customers or vice versa ... needlessly removing choice from your long term customer base is not an equitable solution if you wish to retain that customer base. Considering their own projected loss of income for the next two years, was it really a wise decision to stop supporting perpetual licenses now? Adobe created their own overhead ... it was not forced upon them by a market shift that was out of their control.

                                               

                                              Adobe did not offer or adopt the CC model out of desperation ... they did it by choice and the dropped perpetual licenses without warning. Resulting in doing exactly what was easiest and more cost effective for them ... and not what may be in the best interest of a significant portion of their customers. Resulting the risk of losing those customers and potential future sales.

                                               

                                              Yellamokara wrote:

                                               

                                              As far as piracy is concerned, obviously the folk making and distributing hacked software won't care what model is used, but that is not how most pirated software is distributed - typically is done through ignoring the license usage terms as I explained previously, and it is those people who are the ones who mostly are upset because for them the days of free Adobe software are over.

                                               

                                               

                                              And once again ... this is where you ignorance is quite evident. If you would have ever had the self discipline to have saved up your money to purchase a perpetual license ... you would know that for many years, you have to "activate" most Adobe perpetual apps ... up to two total activations ... so it isn't possible to install a copy on "your brother's girlfirend's hairdresser's computer" without hacking the application ... simply ignoring the license usage terms won't get you very far ... much like your expertise on tthe whole issue at hand.

                                              • 940. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                jbjones Community Member

                                                Yellamokara wrote:

                                                 

                                                ...

                                                 

                                                If you are still using CS1, then Adobe moving to a cloud based model will have no impact on you what so ever, because you are not upgrading anyway and are way behind the current version. You do NOT represent a valued customer to Adobe, because you have NOT been supporting development of the product though timely upgrades. Why should Adobe center their business model around you rather than the majority of reliable customers who are going to see an overall cost decrease as a result of the move to CC?

                                                 

                                                ...

                                                 

                                                It's not a question of should Adobe center their business model around subscribers, but instead why would they want to cut out all of the irregular purchasing customers. It shouldn't be a significant amount of extra work to maintain the perpatual license. If even half of the 30,000 customer who signed the petition never move to the cloud (some perhaps have multiple license), Well that would be no less than 1.5 million dollars every few years. That should be plenty for the extra development work. I'm rounding down as much as I think is possible.

                                                 

                                                Take my history with Adobe. I first purchased Photoshop 4.0 in school just because I was curious to learn how it worked. Later I also purchased Macromedia Dreamweaver. I upgraded sporadically over the next few (commercial) versions, and after Adobe bought Macromedia I moved to CS2 Web Edition. I moved to the Master collection with CS4 and have kept current since.

                                                 

                                                If Adobe had offered only the Cloud subscription service at the current prices I never would have stuck with it and continued to improve my skills. Until I started makeing money with the software I couldn't have justified the continued expense (hence the reason I skipped some versions while continuing to learn on the older software).

                                                 

                                                My guess is that Adobe is scared that they won't have enough improvements over the next few years to convince people to upgrade and their income will plummet worse than they are predicting for this subscription shift. They will definitely be lacking my support because I think the move is borderline evil and I'll find a competitor before joining a subscription model for software I depend on and build an archive upon.

                                                 

                                                The decision reminds me of a local on-hold-messaging company in my city who used to sell a custom on-hold recording for about $400. Recurring business slowed down so they started charging a yearly $100 fee to continue using a recording. They didn't lower their initial purchase price and the yearly fee didn't provide for minor updates. It was basically a money grab.

                                                 

                                                Since we don't need seasonal messages our costs would have doubled for the same product. A product that competition was still offering for $500 (one time fee). While I'm happy to pay someone for their time, I draw the line at paying indefinitely for something that took 3-4 hours to create. That's a borderline abuse of the copyright laws in my opinion.

                                                 

                                                The next time I wanted to update our on-hold messaging I went to a company that didn't charge a yearly rental fee.

                                                • 941. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                  Diablo Venom Community Member

                                                  Lets clear away the crap about the cloud.

                                                   

                                                  Look at it this way. Adobe makes software and sells users a licence. Nothing has changed between CC and CS except for how you pay for the licence. Both models download software and you install it on your own personal hard drive. So in essence, the software is free, but the licence costs in both models. The way in which the licence is managed has changed and that is pretty much it besides the cloud fluff features that I personally find useless because 95% of my work is under NDA.  And if Adobe forces me to hold all my work in their cloud, they will die a sudden death in the US court system - especially from my fortune 500 clients.

                                                   

                                                  If you disable the phone home feature, you now have a perpetual version of CC. There is nothing different between CC and CS in that regard as well. SO - why in the hell would Adobe corporate think they can build a better mouse trap and lock up their software - in effect, pissing off a lot of loyal customers?  This to me is just ignorance about how to licence intellectual property. I fully question Adobe's ability to make money and understand its market at this point.

                                                   

                                                  Realistically, Adobe should be restructuring their perpetual fees to corporations and stop gouging individual users. Corporations are able and liable to pay for software to perform business relations via Adobe products. They have deep pockets and as far as I see it, would not even flinch to pay 10 or even 25 grand for a site perpetual licence. This corporate restructure would apply to big conglomerates, educational institutions as well as military branches for official usage.

                                                   

                                                  The problem with the cloud model really hits small businesses as well as individuals and really stings the way in which Adobe feels it needs to strong arm this group of users. Unfortunately, this sector of users is what feeds future sales for Adobe as well as educate single use users that will eventually become small businesses and corporate users. By leveling the field costs on all users for the most part is cutting off the seeds to bigger and more important users in the future.

                                                   

                                                  WTF is Adobe thinking?  Clearly there is a cloud in the way...  My vote is for regime change because the leaders at Adobe are clearly lacking vision for their own future.

                                                   

                                                  Note:  Symantec just laid off 1000 workers in Silicon Valley. Guess who's going to cut another limb off next?

                                                   

                                                  There is a big difference between those who are in control and those who have leadership skills. 

                                                   

                                                  Adobe has neither.

                                                  • 942. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                    dhl1 Community Member


                                                    I am curious about what you think is motivating Adobe?

                                                     

                                                    mike chambers

                                                     

                                                    mesh@adobe.com

                                                     

                                                    I think page six of the May 2013 Adobe Investor Handout explains very clearly what is motivating Adobe:

                                                     

                                                    1) Create and monitize the world's content

                                                     

                                                    2) Reimagine the creative process through Creative Cloud to drive seat growth

                                                     

                                                    3) Increase % of recurring revenue

                                                     

                                                    4) Expand into publishing and media monetization

                                                     

                                                    5) Transform athe impact of digital marketing and build $1B SaaS business

                                                     

                                                    The link to this document is here:

                                                     

                                                    http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/investor-relations/PDFs/ADBE-investor-handout-ma y2013.pdf

                                                     

                                                    Mike, with all due respect, these are Adobe's words to investors. I see nothing here about any benefits to customers.

                                                     

                                                    Adobe has every right to make a profit. But "increasing % of recurring revenue" thu DRM lock-in isn't gonna work. Neither is writing off a significant percentage of your current user base.

                                                     

                                                    I do think there's a very easy solution that will make everyone happy. Offer a loyalty buy-out where after X years and/or X amount of dollars spent, the customer would get an option to freeze their desktop application at its current state. On-line features would revert to free status or disappear. No new updates would be available. If a customer wants new features, they would be free to re-subscribe at any time and the loyalty period would reset.

                                                     

                                                    This is technically trival to implement, it avoids SOX issues because no perpetual copies are ever sold. It is entirely doable, reasonable and fair. It would end this controversy overnight. It's a win for Adobe and a win for customers.

                                                     

                                                    We love Adobe software but please understand the idea of being locked into paying forever in order to access our creative work is simply unacceptable and half-measures won't suffice.

                                                     

                                                    I hope as a customer advocate you will encourage senior management to please consider and implement this very simple solution to the problem millions of your loyal customers have with your new business model.

                                                     

                                                    It's very easy to get us all back on board if you truly are listening and care about your users rather than just Wall Street. Thanks for your consideration.

                                                    • 943. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                      Diablo Venom Community Member

                                                      dhl1

                                                       

                                                      The leaders at Adobe are BEING FORCED to succumb to the requirements of its investors. Play time is over, but the transitional change has cost Adobe unimaginable damage that can't be put back in the bottle. The only way to wiggle out of this is to effetely change some of the direction they have hard lined to their customers. If not, layoffs in volumes shall come at Adobe and I will put odds on that stock.

                                                      • 944. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                        jbjones Community Member

                                                        Investors and Unions.

                                                         

                                                        Everyone likes them at first, but they are prone to short sightedness and errors in logic. They are always walking a fine line between selfishness and company health.

                                                         

                                                        I fear that they crossed the line into selfishness this time.

                                                        • 945. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                          Diablo Venom Community Member

                                                          Selfishness is moot. It's a corporation. The line they crossed is self preservation.  The cloud is very transparent to me in it's current incarnation. Everyone knows change is coming for the company, but no one really knows how much damage this line drawn in the sand shall cut and how deep. So far, I see a lack of understanding of the business model change. That's usually not a positive outcome.

                                                           

                                                          CC = Ciao Ciao

                                                          • 946. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                            A for Design Community Member

                                                            I'm glad a lot of you share my concerns on Adobe's decission to force users into a subscription.

                                                            Everything has propably been said in this topic, but It's important that Adobe (and everyone else) takes notice of everyone's opinion.

                                                             

                                                            Adobe's business model needs to change and they won't do that if not enough people speak out.

                                                             

                                                            Therefor I'll contribute to this forum with my personal reasons not to subscribe to the Creative Cloud:

                                                            1. Not being able to open your files, created/saved with Adobe CC, after ending the subscription is totally onacceptable.
                                                            2. It's more expensive. When you already own CS6 (and paid full price for it), you'lle get a lousy 50-60% discount for the first year. It gets even more expensive when you're forced to pay localized prices when you're not living in the UK or US. For example: I live in the Netherlands, but prefer to work with English software. Still I'll have to pay extra for a 'localized' version which supports all languages. I couldn't care less. Don't want to be forced to pay extra for translations I don't need. The regular monthly fee for CC here is: $81,87 (€ 61,49), a whopping $ 982,44 / year (incl. VAT). That's more than twice the price I used to pay for upgrades. Without skipping a single one.
                                                            3. People should pay for an upgrade because it's worth it, not because they have to! Adobe should continue to convince/tempt people to upgrade to the latest version because of awesome new features. Innovation jay ! Capitalism nay!
                                                            4. For how long can anybody using CC export files to a CS version ? In the design industry it's all about collaboration. Not being able to exchange documents kills that. Looking at InDesign CS.x you can save back at least one or two versions AND have older versions of InDesign (you bought) installed to repeat that process.
                                                            • 947. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                              bababongatwo Community Member

                                                              CashCow is no accepptable solution for me. Losing full editable access to my archive is the main concern and the absolute knock-out for this. I also lost all my trust to that company (I once liked). So I will use two MAC PRO G5 (2 x 6 Core) to hold CS6 MasterCollections and my archive the next years beside new and alternative workflows. We have already configured them, and I hope they will do that job beside some other tasks for the next 2-3 years. I also think (when I have a look to all that pis.ed of professionals between my business partners), that there will come up competitors in the next years. Since May 6, we already using more and more alternatives to Adobe in case of video-editing, classical 2D design and most parts of web-publishing. The only thing that really hurts is PS. But I think, CS6 is good for the next 1-3 years. My hope is, that there will come up good alternatives, as Adobe forces exactly that. The Apps have reached a quality, where it is still very difficult to offer real innovation (where are the great features within all upgrades last years? Featuring out an new GUI-color???). An VIP from Adobe also said, that there will be more and more cloud-functionalities and other similar stuff in future updates (and not so much innovation/add ons in core-apps). Good for those, who think, they can´t live without that stuff - but not for me. And if: I can buy seperately (as long as Adobe doesn´t buy them all to hold it´s monopoly-state as in the past).
                                                              So I also think: The great show/coming out on June 17 will be the last very big upgrade for a long, long period. They must catch as many Cloudies as possible. And so, they concentrated all that new stuff to this point. From thereon (and till the point where there are no longer advantages for old CS6 users to change) they are payed wether they innovate or not (would be glad to be in a similar situation).
                                                              Adobes leader board is selling out it´s stock (Do they realy trust into their own business model? They trust into rising stock prices?). I wonder how prices for the CashCow (CC) will rise after the "Catching Cloudies" period ends. Getting into dependency means: It´s not easy to jump off the cloud BS, after a couple of years (lose of fully editable archive = catastrophe for professionals).
                                                              After this "Catching Cloudies" period (and no longer income of CS users) - Cloud is the only income for Adobe. Be aware!
                                                              With the new MAC Pro, it´s like with Adobe Upgrades: We first have to see, how good they will fit into workflows before to be established. There where many workflow-breaking upgrades in the last years. BtW: The new MP seams not to be the great thing. I´m very disapointed of that. Especialy by the missing upgrade-ability. It´s more a BigMacMini (Realtime 3D editing graphic card?). Apple is a little bit similar to Adobe: Seems they ignore the needs of real professionals. Looking more to hype-trends and funware.
                                                              Also: Never had a problem to pay good money for good solutions.
                                                              But I´m against to be forced into dependency. No matter if it´s with drugs or software.
                                                              My point behind Adobe is made.
                                                              Thanks to your programmers for creating my brushes and tools trough the last decades. Great work.
                                                              To your leader-borad: Enough is enough. Fly away on your cloud.

                                                              ----------

                                                              CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

                                                              • 948. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                bababongatwo Community Member

                                                                Nearby 32.000 signers at change.org is a great number (if you know how difficult it is to bring people to activity).
                                                                But the better number are the only - not overwhelming - 500.000 subscripers.
                                                                And I take every bet: Most of them (see the questions at help-forums) are newcomers with low budget, who think the "low fees" are a good base (entrance). People, who mostly not invest into a solution of a few thousand $. Wait, how long they stay, when fee-prices have to rise.
                                                                For professionals, there are so many lacks and horrible boarders, that they HAVE TO FORCE them.

                                                                Let´s see, how succesfull their solution was, at the end of the year.
                                                                The amount of subscribers dictates the price of fees in future. As there is no other income for Adobe from thereon.
                                                                Let´s wait and see.
                                                                My sugestion: Keep CS6 alive as long as you can (they let you - for the momnet they can´t lose that income, without losing face at stock-markets), search for alternatives!!!

                                                                In my eyes it´s a great risk for Adobe. And their Image already has been damaged (They are ranking below MS in my list - and it´s difficult to get that position).
                                                                Time will tell.

                                                                ----------

                                                                CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

                                                                • 949. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                  ValentinOcheda Community Member

                                                                  Hello A for Design,

                                                                   

                                                                  I'm a designer, also from The Netherlands and I agree with every line you have written.

                                                                  I would say...skip Indesign..... Don't bet on one horse. Almost every design I make comes from QuarkXpress 9.5... only 5%

                                                                  comes from Indesign... :-)

                                                                   

                                                                  No CC for me. I use the CS6 version and want to keep it alive as long as possible...

                                                                  • 950. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                    A for Design Community Member

                                                                    Funny you mention QuarkXpress.

                                                                     

                                                                    It lost more 80% of it's market because Quark didn't care about their customers.

                                                                    Thankfully some years ago they replaced the management team and started to listen to the customers. They should've done that many years before.

                                                                     

                                                                    For now InDesign CS6 is fine with me.

                                                                    • 951. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                      ValentinOcheda Community Member

                                                                      Very funny indeed. You're right about Quark but the have changed a lot.

                                                                      During version 8 they even contacted me and asked what changes I wanted to see in version 9....

                                                                       

                                                                      So they are listening now but pay a big price for not doing so 10 years ago.

                                                                       

                                                                      I happy with CS6 and also InDesign works fine.

                                                                       

                                                                      But I'm happy that I can choose between these two.

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      Op 14 jun 2013, om 14:07 heeft A for Design het volgende geschreven:

                                                                       

                                                                      Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?

                                                                      created by A for Design in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion

                                                                      Funny you mention QuarkXpress.

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      It lost more 80% of it's market because Quark didn't care about their customers.

                                                                       

                                                                      Thankfully some years ago they replaced the management team and started to listen to the customers. They should've done that many years before.

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      For now InDesign CS6 is fine with me.

                                                                       

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                                                                      • 952. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                        Chazinbermuda Community Member

                                                                        I have similar issues ... the european commission on competition is a great place to voice your concers... there direct email is

                                                                         

                                                                        comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu

                                                                        • 953. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                          Danny Michael Community Member

                                                                          dhl1 wrote:

                                                                          It's very easy to get us all back on board if you truly are listening and care about your users rather than just Wall Street.

                                                                           

                                                                          I for one will never spend another dime on an Adobe product or any products that require Adobe software, such as plugins and training. Adobe has lost my trust and I'm not one to just forget what they did here. You will see nothing change for the next few years regarding Adobe's position. They have stated this as fact, they are commited to their new game plan. They are willing to lose money for the next few years and fully expect to do so. With that said, it's game over. I'm moving on. So far I have found an alternate choice for every Adobe application except for Photoshop. CS6 will have to do for now, but change is coming.

                                                                          • 954. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                            Diablo Venom Community Member

                                                                            And I am the poster child for never spending a dime on Adobe products. Never. Ever. I don't plan on throwing that dime in the direction of Adobe for CC because I don't have to.

                                                                             

                                                                            I will keep my dime safe with me in my pocket no matter what concoction Adobe comes up with.

                                                                             

                                                                            Lets see -

                                                                             

                                                                            Nice day out there in the SF Bay Area.  Do I drive the Ferrari or Muscle car this weekend....Hmm...

                                                                             

                                                                            Tough choice.

                                                                            • 955. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                              bababongatwo Community Member

                                                                              >Danny Michael

                                                                               

                                                                              Great. I´m not alone.
                                                                              Absolutely agree.

                                                                              For me they can turn where ever they want to.
                                                                              My point is made behind.
                                                                              And already found the same as you: Only PS can not fully be replaced for the moment.
                                                                              But I hope & think, that competitors will take their choice now.

                                                                              Till that point CS6 will have to do the job.

                                                                              ----------

                                                                              CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

                                                                              • 956. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                Butch_M Community Member

                                                                                Danny Michael wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                I for one will never spend another dime on an Adobe product or any products that require Adobe software, such as plugins and training. Adobe has lost my trust and I'm not one to just forget what they did here. You will see nothing change for the next few years regarding

                                                                                 

                                                                                Likewise ... I have direct family tree members that survived Valley Forge, Gettysburg, The Siegfried Line, D-Day, The Battle of the Bulge, Battle of Unsan, The Tet Offensive (myself) ... and my own children serving in the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ... I don't think surviving without Adobe products in my workflow will be much of a problem ... sometimes, principle over product has to win out ...

                                                                                 

                                                                                I wish I could have the same support in Adobe products and concept of origin as I did not much more than a month ago ... however, in one fell swoop ... the executives at Adobe decided, that my concerns and well being in the world of imaging software were insignificant (though, I feel my financial investment in same was not) and that I and my investment in Adobe products for over 20 years was a reasonable loss for them in order to achieve their goal.

                                                                                 

                                                                                In the end, I WILL survive, though it won't be because Adobe software made it possible ... it will be because of original ingenuity and entrepreneurship ... and hard work. I really don't care who my ultimate partners are in the process .... but Adobe should be concerned as I could have been an important partner in the process if they took my interests seriously ... I know I am a VERY small fish in a VERY large pond ...but they once thought my participation was important to them ... unfortunately ... I don't fit into their plans any longer ... I am a loss they are willing to risk ...

                                                                                 

                                                                                So ... Mr. Shantanu ... you go ahead and sell hundreds of thousands of your stock shares ... just be assured ... not one cent will ever be contributed by me from this day forward to YOUR financial gain ... while you may profit greatly from your efforts in this manner ... I will no longer be a participant in the activity where you place your own well-being ... ahead of that of my own and countless other customers who saw to it that you had the means to make this move to CC without regard to those who made it possible ...

                                                                                 

                                                                                It is as it awlays has been ... those that make the decisions with other people's money ... then sell out and have no personal investment in the game, profit most ...

                                                                                • 957. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                  bitm07 Community Member

                                                                                  I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                                                                  • 958. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                    jbjones Community Member

                                                                                    bitm07 wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    My thoughts as well. Photoshop CS6 is so feature packed it is likely to be a step above all other competition for at least another version cycle (of the competition). Luckily that also means it probably suffer from lack of upgrades for 3-4 years either.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Other applications in the Master Collection are maybe not quite as much an industry leader and can be replaced more easily with similar competitive applications. In a lot of cases much better, although more expensive, applications. The primary appeal of the "other" applications in the Master Collection are the cross suite integration and budled pricing.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    But "perpetual" licensing is the key.  Going subscription is also a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                                                                    • 959. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                                                                      Danny Michael Community Member

                                                                                      bitm07 wrote:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      You'll never get that option as Adobe has made it clear no more perpetual licensing. I do stand on principle, unlike so many these days who just fall in line. By all means join the cloud if you feel it's best for you. I'm sure Adobe will be happy to have you for as long as you can pay.

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