18 Replies Latest reply: Jan 31, 2014 12:37 AM by Neil Wilkes RSS

    Serious layer break problems with Encore

    Paul_33 Community Member

      Hi,

        I'm authoring a dual layer film project and bought Encore specifically because it had the capability of producing a DDP image for replication. The problem, however, is that there seems to be a serious problem with how Encore decides the layer break - which it seems everyone is aware of apart from Adobe! I've read every post going on this and the general consensus is that the manual layer break option dialogue box doesn't appear for most people (including me) - or supposedly only comes up when Encore can't find a good place to place the layer break between videos. My experimenting, however, would suggest that when set to automatic Encore simply splits the whole project exactly in two and places the layer break wherever it falls - no matter if it's in the middle of a scene (as happens for me). Without an option to set the layer break manually, however, I'm stuck. And so is my project which is due out by Christmas. I've seen people talk about using ImgBurn and Gear Pro to sort out the layer break issue outside of Encore, but this is crazy given I've just bought a product on the promise that it should do this. Does anyone have any insight into whether Adobe are listening to this problem, or whether there are any other work-arounds which don't involve buying more third-party software? I'm extremely frustrated by this - and especially the fact that it's been talked about on forums for a good while but nothing seems to be happening to sort it out.

       

      Cheers,

      Paul

        • 1. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
          Paul_33 Community Member

          Ok, I think I've discovered something which is pretty significant in relation to this that I've not found discussed elsewhere. The manual layer break option only appears ONCE YOU START BUILDING YOUR DVD (or DDP Image or DVD Master etc..) - and not straight away - it is only a few minutes into the build process that the dialogue box pops up (if you've selected manual layer break). I think this should hopefully solve my woes, but I'll be back if I hit any more snags. Hope this helps other folks who are hitting their heads against a brick wall with this - Adobe should really make it clearer that the dialogue box does not appear straight away.

           

          Paul

          • 2. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
            Paul_33 Community Member

            ... forget that. Encore has now decided to stop giving me the layer break option. Extremely infuriating. Getting pretty fed up with how many problems this program has now.

            • 3. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
              Jon Geddes Community Member

              The layer break dialog only appears after you start building for a couple reasons...

               

              1) Layer break is not needed if you are building an ISO image or a folder. Therefore, it prompts you only when building a disc or DDP.

               

              2) Until all the streams, menus, and data are prepared (which happens during the build process), Encore does not know where the layer break can be placed.

               

              If it does not detect a good layer break point in the range that it deems acceptable, I believe it will not prompt and instead split it in the middle, even if that occurs in a bad spot. Encore must find a chapter point to place the break at, so if no chapters are found in the range, it cannot manually select a break point.

               

              What you can do is create an image, then open that image with ImgBurn. When attempting to burn, ImgBurn will ask you to select a layer break point, and will allow you to watch exactly where Encore places the layer break. If that point is not good, at least you can see which video and at which point is the exact middle of all the content. You can then go back into your Encore project, go to a point in the video before that spot (a more acceptable break point), and create a chapter. That chapter will then be used as a break point instead.

               

              I know it's kind of a hassle, but at least it is a method for assuring you have a good layer break point that doesn't occur right in the middle of a scene or when someone is talking.

              • 4. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                Paul_33 Community Member

                Thanks Jon - that's very helpful, especially regarding the ISO image and folder options.

                 

                The logic regarding where Encore places the layer break makes sense, however Encore just doesn't seem to be reliably sticking to it! I've been working on exactly the same project, with the same transcodes, but two days ago it gave me the manual layer break option - and now it doesn't! It just places the layer break point half way through the disc - which actually occurs half way through a scene and not at a chapter. To be honest, the place where it puts it isn't too bad - there's no dialogue or music - but I would still like the option of placing it manually as Encore should allow. There really is little explanation as to why I should be given the manual layer break sometimes, but sometimes not - apart from a bug in the program. Perhaps someone from Adobe could shed some light on all this....? Is anyone listening?

                 

                Cheers,

                Paul

                • 5. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                  Stan Jones CommunityMVP

                  Are you sure that Encore didn't add a chapter at that point? So now it doesn't ask?

                  • 6. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                    Stan Jones wrote:

                     

                    Are you sure that Encore didn't add a chapter at that point? So now it doesn't ask?

                    That's what happens sometimes, Stan - but not always. What has happened on more than one occasion is that either

                    A - Once a break point has been set once, it is impossible to change it later within Encore, or

                    B - It will ignore it on the next burn for some reason.

                     

                    It's really best not to do Layer Breaks in Encore at all but to use either Jon's method (which works well, as IMGburn allows preview of break point where relevant) or else

                    if replication is needed (which IMGBurn cannot do) then use GPME - but the problem with GPME is that if there is already a spurious layer break set, GPME will honour it.

                    In such a case, the best solution is to reset the blasted thing completely using PGCEdit.

                     

                    The problem is that using Encore to do this is just unreliable. It always has been, sadly. Sometimes it functions as it should, other times not.

                    • 7. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                      JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                      It always has been, sadly.

                       

                      Not always.  This feature worked perfectly every time for CS2.0.  Just every version after that seems to muff it up in some way.

                      • 8. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                        Paul_33 Community Member

                        It's a good idea Stan - and did cross my mind - but no, it hasn't created a chapter where the layer break is. There just appears to be no logic to it at all. I can't believe how many people are having problems with this, but no update from Adobe. Ridiculous - especially when, like me, you've bought the software for what it promised to do.

                         

                        Hard not to get cross....

                        • 9. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                          Danielpremiere Community Member

                          Hi,

                           

                          I am also extremely frustrated with Encore's Layer break problems. It seems as I should have got CS2.0 if that worked OK!!

                           

                          My experience with this is variable. I used to think that it worked OK, but it may have been luck. I am currently using CS3 and hoping to upgrade to CS5.5 shortly and was expecting these problems to have been solved. My manager does not understand why it's so difficult to put the layer break where she wants it, and frankly neither do I.

                           

                          I have recently been always selecting the "Manual" option, and to be fair, the box asking you where you want to put it (either select a chapter or enter other timecode) does normally pop up, but IT IGNORES WHAT YOU HAVE SET - AARRGH! --  I have just done two test discs (which need to be sent to the factory tomorrow) and neither of them has worked correctly. If you don't want to use third party software (which is fine, I'm sure, but I really don't have the time - OK perhaps I should find the time if I want it to work as I should - but really we shouldn't have to if we've bought "professional" software?) what I think we have to do is the following:

                           

                          If you choose manual, it will suggest where it wants to put the layer break, which will be on a chapter point. You have to accept the layer break will go on this chapter point and adjust your video to match (e.g. put a dip to black in at this point)

                           

                          I'm sorry but I think this is the only work-around. I'll be adjusting my videos according tomorrow.

                           

                          Interestingly I had a recently project where I had "set" the layer break in a place about half a minute before a chapter, and had a most peculiar DVD result where the DVD itself was about 4 minutes longer than the original timeline, the area between the "set" layer break and the succeeding chapter was omitted from the DVD (when played straight through from the start) and the next chapter was played twice!!! - I already posted about this.

                           

                          Best regards to all - please reply if you have any further suggestions.

                          Daniel

                          • 10. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                            Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                            I think the problem is that there are several variables at play here.

                            1 - the position of the layer break itself.

                            2 - the transcode status of the video files, and

                            3 - the amount of content on the disc.

                            Both (2) and (3) will affect (1), and you could even add a subset of (3) stating the "sequence or order timelines were added to the project".

                             

                            Looking at Daniel's problems above, I can only surmize the place where he has selected to put the layer break is not spec valid for some reason. This could mean a bug in the dialogue by allowing him to select an illegal point, or a bug on the compiler itself putting it in the wrong place. I would need to examine the project to try & find a reason and may well not succeed anyway.

                             

                            Personal experience for me is that the dialogue is flawed, for whatever reason, and I use a 3rd party pre-mastering tool instead.

                            • 11. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                              Loqutisofborg Community Member

                              1) Layer break is not needed if you are building an ISO image or a folder. Therefore, it prompts you only when building a disc or DDP.

                               

                              It absolutely asked me for a layer break. Actually it told me I needed a layer break and promptly quit the build.

                               

                              Screen shot 2013-12-01 at 6.57.05 PM.png

                              • 12. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                Loqutisofborg Community Member

                                1 - the position of the layer break itself.

                                2 - the transcode status of the video files, and

                                3 - the amount of content on the disc.

                                Both (2) and (3) will affect (1), and you could even add a subset of (3) stating the "sequence or order timelines were added to the project".

                                 

                                Are you saying the order I build my project can determine if a layer break will work? Should I place my long 2 hour movie in the project first and then place all my bonus video and then place all my menus?

                                 

                                My movie timeline takes up 4.3 GBs of space The remaining files take an additional 4 GBs of space

                                • 13. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                  Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                                  Loqutisofborg wrote:

                                   

                                  1 - the position of the layer break itself.

                                  2 - the transcode status of the video files, and

                                  3 - the amount of content on the disc.

                                  Both (2) and (3) will affect (1), and you could even add a subset of (3) stating the "sequence or order timelines were added to the project".

                                   

                                  Are you saying the order I build my project can determine if a layer break will work? Should I place my long 2 hour movie in the project first and then place all my bonus video and then place all my menus?

                                   

                                  My movie timeline takes up 4.3 GBs of space The remaining files take an additional 4 GBs of space

                                  Absolutely!

                                  The way I would do this is as follows - firstly, plan your project out on paper in the first instance. This really helps.

                                  Next import your assets - all of them - but as assets & not timelines (yet).

                                  Create your First Play item next (assuming it is a movie clip & not a menu - if a menu do not worry as menus tend to get written first anyway), followed by your main timeline, and finally the extras. Why? Encore creates the VTS files on the disc in the order they are created by turning each timeline into a VTS in it's abstraction layer.

                                  Your other issue is how much stuff actually fits onto a disc in the real world, and you are sailing very close to the wind here with the content you're adding.

                                  A DVD9 does not - and cannot - hold the 8.5GB it advertises on the wrapper because DVD gigabytes are smaller than computer gigabytes, as shiny disc uses multiples of 1,000 instead of 1024 and this adds up - dramatically.

                                  Best way to work it all out is to bit budget manually.....and at 4.3Gb your layer break will definitely be in the main title.

                                  With video, you can set OTP or PTP for the layers (Opposite Track Path & Parallel Track path) and when a break is in a piece of footage OTP is the only one that makes sense.

                                  OTP plays layer 0 from inside to out, refocusses & goes back the other way for Layer 1. PTP runs from inside to out on both layers.

                                   

                                  Some more considerations:

                                  1 - Layer 1 cannot be larger than Layer 0

                                  2 - Layer 0 cannot exceed 4.2Gb - this is really important because Layer 1 must be smaller, so there goes 100Mb right away.

                                  3 - Factor in 4% overhead to allow for navigation & menu elements

                                  4 - Using IMGburn may or may not produce the same Layer Break options as Encore, especially if loading the ISO file as it may not use the same start sector as Encore.

                                  5 - You will get better results with Encore by only feeding it DVD Compliant files, and not letting it transcode anything. This requires bit budgeting though (see below)

                                   

                                   

                                  Mastering for Replication:

                                  Personally, I would simply not trust Encore to set the LB properly. I know it is difficult to do this automatically especially if the assets are untranscoded and Encore is creating the final M2V and AC3 files as the best it can really do is "guess" at the final file sizes. Even Scenarist only gives you the best guess at this, and that only accepts correctly formatted files, because the real test is in the final multiplexing. There is good news though, and that is a wonderful tool called PGCEdit. I honestly cannot recommend grabbing this highly enough (and please donate at least $15 - it is worth it for the extremely rapid email support, and Roz has done us all a great service with this app) as it is THE swiss army knuife for DVD - you can edit everything. Literally. Setting the Layer Break is as simple as checking a box within the range indicated & to set a legal break there must be a chapter point for it to go on - no chapter point or title start within the range, and it will all fall apart on you. PGCEdit also allows you to correct any navigational issues, menu colours, add/remove buttons, change end actions/routing and basically allows you to edit all parts of the disc. It previews & will also write a disc.

                                   

                                  Manual Bit Budgeting.

                                  DVD9 = 8,500,000,000 (bits) x 8 (bits/bytes) / 1,000,000 (bits/megabits)

                                  = 68000 MegaBits available on disc.

                                  Overheads. 68000 x 0.96 (we allow 4% for overheads) = 65280 MegaBits available.

                                   

                                  Now for asset calculations.

                                  PCM Audio = Sample Rate x Bit Depth x 60 (seconds per minute) x (minutes run time) x 2 (channels) / 1000 = total space used in MegaBits.

                                  Subtract from first total to get remainder.

                                  AC3 audio = 0.192Mbits (stereo) to 0.448Mbits (maximum allowed for codec), so multiply fixed value by 60 and then by the minutes run time to get result in MegaBits.

                                  Subtitles = 0.08Mits/second

                                  DTS Audio = either as for PCM stereo at full bitrate or half for half bitrate.

                                  Video.

                                  Add up all other stuff, subtract from initial total in megabits to get you the remaining available space.

                                  Work out running time in seconds, and then divide the total megabits remaining by this run time in seconds to get your target encode rate for the MPEG-2.

                                   

                                  It sounds complicated but it isn't, really. Once you have done this a few times it gets a lot easier.

                                   

                                  Hope this helps, and give me a shout if you need more details?

                                  • 14. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                    Loqutisofborg Community Member

                                    Is there any way to nominate a response for "Answer of the Year". This is absolutely amazing! Thank you for the extremely detailed explanation of how DVD authoring should take place.

                                     

                                    Throw in the fact that Jon Geddes explained the  (=3) glitch and I'm feeling optimistic my DVD will build and burn properly

                                     

                                    thank you thank you

                                    • 15. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                      Loqutisofborg Community Member

                                      Screen shot 2013-12-06 at 4.26.53 PM.png

                                       

                                      and it appears i spoke too soon. Could this be any more useless? What could not be found?

                                      • 16. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                        ace9020946 Community Member

                                        Layer 0 should be larger, correct?

                                        • 17. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                          Richard M Knight Community Member

                                          I always make layer 0 larger, I was suprised to see that Neil said it should be smaller. Having re-read his reply items 1 and 2 seen to contradict each other.

                                          • 18. Re: Serious layer break problems with Encore
                                            Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                                            Thanks for pointing out my appalling typo there chaps - sorry about that.

                                            In 99% of cases, Layer 0 must be the larger one. However, this is not always the case as there are conditions where Layer 1 can be bigger. Let me try to explain:

                                             

                                            DVD 9 discs can be done in 2 ways - Opposite Track Path (OTP) or Parallel Track Path (PTP). With OTP, Layer 0 starts in the centre of the disc & moves out to the edge, hits the break, refocusses to Layer 1 & then goes back from the outer part to the inner - this is why Layer 0 must be bigger (or have exactly the same number of sectors) as Layer 1 or else we would run out of space but with PTP, it does not matter as both layers go from the centre to the outer part of the disc. In 99% of cases we will always be using OTP because the odds are that the layer break will be in the middle of the main feature so setting to PTP would be a disaster as there would be no chance at all of an almost seamless break coupled with the inconvenient fact that it is impossible to write a disc in PTP mode for test purposes.

                                             

                                            Sorry for the typo earlier