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1. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Walker, Andy Jan 24, 2014 11:49 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)Are you looking to do something like this, where you are first specifying the reference angle from an object and then rotating the other object (click to play the animated gif):
or like this where you are first drawing a perpendicular line to any arbitrary angle in your art and then rotating the other object around that, like this (click to play the animated gif):
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2. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Jacob Bugge Jan 25, 2014 2:37 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)Chuck,
You may consider it a poor substitute, but you can (Smart Guides are your friends):
1) Drag horizontally or vertically with the Line Segment Tool far enough from the relevant corner;
2) With the Rotate Tool, click the corner to set it as the centre of rotation, then drag by the other relevant corner until it reaches the line from 1) (Smart Guides say path).
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3. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 10:37 AM (in response to Walker, Andy)Andy, thanks for your reply and nice animations. But unfortunately, neither case is directly addressing my need for improvement with Illustrator.
Let me re-phrase my situation, so maybe it will make more sense. The first point of clarification is that I am making artwork for cutting on a computer controlled "router", so making something be at 90 degrees to a reference is not the same as making it be 91 degrees to a reference. This becomes an issue when mulitple transformations are made, and errors stack up.
My second point of clarification is that when I cut parts on my machine, the X and Y axis of Illustrator actually line up exactly with the X and Y axis of my machine. So if I lay out a part in Illustrator, and know that it is exactly at 90 degrees, it will come out at exactly 90 degrees on my machine. (Again, I could be using any angle that I need to create, but 90 is a common need, and so good for the purposes of discussion, and coincides with John Stanowski's 2008 post.)
My third point of clarification, will address Jacob's reply (thank you Jacob!). If I take a simple rectangle in Illustrator, and rotate it randomly 5 or 6 times, it will wind up at some really odd angle. If I then want to change that rectangle back to exactly 90 degrees (relative to the absolute reference of when the part was first drawn IE compared to Illustrator's rulers) I can't get it there. Even with the Smart Guide snaps activated and a new vertical line segment drawn while holding down "shift" for comparison as you have suggested, I still can't get the rectangle to align "close enough" with the reference line. Try this, and then zoom in, and see the error of maybe 1/2 degree. And that best alignment is only obtained by me fiddling and zooming and tweaking some more, and then re-tweaking.....
For simple illustrations, one would figure, so what? But in my case I can be cutting a 12 foot long board (the longest I can cut on my machine), and that 1/2 degree error is a lot.
Rather than belabor the point, I was hoping to find that someone would say, gee, we have this cool option, that if you pull down this menu, you will find the magic world coordinate bar,,,,,,,,,,, and so knowing it doesn't exist will keep me from looking for such a thing. Maybe in CS10?????????????????
Thank you for your time and efforts, which I deeply appeciate! Thanks, Chuck
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4. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 10:38 AM (in response to Jacob Bugge)Thank you Jacob! See my post to Andy. Thanks, Chuck
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5. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 10:41 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)PS: I do like drawing in Illustrator for artistic purposes! So though CAD software addresses the absolute angle issues with ease, they don't provide the same fredom of artistic expression! So of course I would like to have my cake and eat it too. Chuck
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6. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Jacob Bugge Jan 25, 2014 11:00 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)Chuck,
That is strange.
If you use Smart Guides, the rotation should snap to the line with full accuracy.
To test it, I created a 100 x 10 rectanglewith a hairline Stroke Weight (setting the Stroke Weight to 0.001pt so it says 0 in the Stroke palette), rotated it arbitrarily with the Rotate Tool, dragged a horizontal linefrom the bottom left corner, then rotated the rectangle round that corner to snap.
The Transform palette says that the rectangle is 100 x 10, and there is no deviation to see up to 6400%.
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7. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Monika Gause Jan 25, 2014 11:14 AM (in response to Jacob Bugge)You don't need a guideline.
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8. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Kurt Gold Jan 25, 2014 11:19 AM (in response to Monika Gause)Of course Jacob does need a guideline. He is using Illustrator 10.
In that version Smart Guides are not working like in recent versions.
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9. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Jacob Bugge Jan 25, 2014 11:32 AM (in response to Monika Gause)Monika, Kurt,
Maybe Chuck needs one, too, so that he can get an accurate horizontalness.
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10. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 12:03 PM (in response to Jacob Bugge)Hello Jacob. Thanks for the follow-up. After reading your new post, I drew one rectangle, and before doing anything, I used Alt-drag to create an identical copy. I then randomly rotated the copy about its center two or three times. With Smartguides turned on, I don't get any snapping. If any control of the re-orientation of this rectangle is up to me to do by eye. Now, I will note that the green smart guide does show up as I get near to matching the original rectangle (which is undisturbed and is perpendicular to the drawing axis). But that green guide line stays lighted over a range, according to the grey databox for the test rotating rectangle, of 1.35 to 2.12 degrees. So even the green line/smart guide in my situation, is not anything more than a ball park indicator.
I then went and AFTER having done the above testing, enabled "snap to grid". And then my copy rectangle would snap, but it was far off perpendicular and from matching the original test rectangle.
So maybe I have some setting out of whack????? I will note that at the start of each practice session, I am resetting "essentials", and haven't messed with anything else, except for changing my tools to show in two columns......
If I can get a copy rectangle to snap back to match my original undisturbed perpendicular/orthoganal rectangle, I will be very happy. (As opposed to the ultimate situation of being able to specify ANY absolute angle). So I anxiously await your suggestions and appreciate your help, thanks, Chuck
PS: As noted, I am running CS6, and it has the newest updates.
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11. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Monika Gause Jan 25, 2014 1:09 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)How are smart guides set up?
You need to turn them on for construction lines and transform tools in the preferences.
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12. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 1:19 PM (in response to Monika Gause)Hello Monica! OK, I have gone to Edit/Preferences/Smart Guides, and I see that Alignment Guides, Object Highlighting, Anchor/Path Labels and Measurement Labels are checked. Transform Tools and Construction Guides are NOT checked. I will check those and see what happens. (I suppose I should have done the check before posting, but I jumped when I saw your post, and wanted to respond as quickly as I could. I'll get back after I test with the changed Smart Guide Preferences.) Thanks, Chuck
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13. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 1:52 PM (in response to Monika Gause)Thank you Monica! I have now tested this with my changed smart guide preferences changed, and I can now carefully guide the rotation of my rectangle, so that it will perfectly snap back in line with the original rectangle!!!!!!!! But, if I move the new rectangle away from the original reference rectangle, I can't really get it to reliably snap to a condition that makes it align with the original rectangle when I drag the experimental rectangle back over top of the reference rectangle. So it still seems as though I need to snap a new vertical reference line to be able to reliably snap my rectangle back to true alignment with the importnat original vertical reference. But even this is a great improvement, for which I thank you.
Now, as a note, just now, I noticed that there is a selection option, to select things that are not aligned with the "Pixel Grid". "Select/Object/Not aligned to pixel grid". If that is lurking about within Illustrator, it would seem that what I want in the ideal case, would be for the rotation dialog/information box to show two readings, and allow control over which ever one the user needed: "Relative" angle (which is effectively what exists today, but is simply labled as "angle" and shows how much rotation has occured relative the the object's previous position) and "Absolute" angle which would show the angle of a reference line on the selected object compared to the "Pixel Grid". (In my Rhino CAD software, when rotating, a little cordinate axis appears on a corner of the object being rotated, and it shows X, Y and Z axis OF THE OBJECT BEING ROTATED, and the readings displayed dyanmically as an object is being rotated, are relative to the "world coordnates", or in the case of Illustrator, I would assume would be the "pixel grid".
Well, this is fodder for future consideration. At least I am now off the hook, and can achieve my goal to get objects re-"plumbed" if I draw a new reference line. Thank you again! Chuck
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14. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Jacob Bugge Jan 25, 2014 1:55 PM (in response to Kurt Gold)Kurt,
Just as you might possibly be able to tempt me to wonder whether it might be time to start considering considering, it turns out that you have to do all sorts of things to have the Smart Guides/whatever begin to actually be smart, instead of just, well, be smart as in the old days.
I will try to remember that.
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15. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
Jacob Bugge Jan 25, 2014 1:57 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)Chuck,
As you have found out, the Smart Guides have become less smart than I thought.
In the old days they were smart enough to just work as described without your having to tell them to be smart.
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16. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 2:13 PM (in response to Jacob Bugge)Thank you Jacob, your posts have been very helpfu.. It is always disconcerting, and a bit destablizing to have something work differently than one wishes, or one expects (often different). But when I have to wonder if I am messed up, or if I am doing something wrong, it simply makes things too complicated. So at least knowing that this is how it works, even if it isn't how I would like it, does help me. Thanks, Chuck
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17. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
CarlosCanto Jan 25, 2014 2:25 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)I do this all the time, go to view and check "Snap to Point"
for the scenario where you have 2 rectangles, one on top of the other, then one rotated randomly and moved off to the side, do this
1. pick up rotated rectangle by one of the anchors (I use Group Selection Tool, white arrow with plus sign) then
2. drag it over and drop it fairly close to its matching anchor in the Original Rectangle,
3. zoom in as much as you can,
4. turn on Outline View (Ctrl+Y)
5. pick up the anchor again, press Ctrl Key and when it is on top of another anchor, it will snap to it,
6. release Mouse, release Ctrl Key, we have one anchor down!!
7. grab the Rotate Tool (R), click on top of the anchor you just dropped, Rotated Rectangle will rotate around this anchor
8. pick up another Anchor, press Ctrl Key, and drag it towards its matching anchor in the Original Rectangle, when you're close enough, it will snap.
9. release Mouse, release Ctrl Key
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18. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 25, 2014 2:43 PM (in response to CarlosCanto)Hello Carlos. Thanks for the added tips. I checked, and found that "snap to point" was not checked. So, I made that selection. The first point seemed to snap cleanly into place, but when I got to the end, of snapping the alternate corner into place, I felt as though I was having to carefully guide it. Maybe I made a wrong step. But so many steps seems to be a regretable sequence to do something that should be so fundamentally achieved with the correct change to Illustrator. Maybe if the marketing people in Illustrator realized how many extra steps their users are having to do, because Illustrator does not allow the user to refernce the "pixel grid", they would make this change. Think of all the key strokes that could be saved!
Again, thanks Carlos for your tip. And I will certainly leave my snap to point function enabled! Chuck
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19. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
CarlosCanto Jan 25, 2014 3:05 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)you're welcome, the winner tip here is to press Ctrl Key, without it, points will have a hard time snapping to each other.
I get you, too many steps, but hey, it is Illustrator we're talking about here...after a while, you get into the rhythm and you'll make those steps quick.
if your work depends on this feature, you may consider buying Xtream Path plugin, they have a "Straighten up" tool...I know, more money for something the Industry Leading Software should provide.
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20. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
CarlosCanto Jan 25, 2014 3:08 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)...forgot to say, to snap the alternate anchor with the rotate tool, you have to pick up the anchor precisely, smart guides will help you with this.
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21. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
JETalmage Jan 26, 2014 9:14 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)I noticed that there is a selection option, to select things that are not aligned with the "Pixel Grid".
Chuck,
Let's get this one out of the way first. Illustrator's "pixel grid" is something to stay away from for your purposes. References to aligning to the Pixel Grid have to do with an ill-conceived and worsely-implemented feature that is intended to have previews of horizontal and vertical edges fall on whole-pixel increments for the sake of web-destined raster-rendered output. It has been a chronic stumbling block for users since its introduction; it actually reshapes objects just to force vertical and horizontal extrema of shapes to automatically conform to "pixel" (actually, point) increments.
Unless you are doing work you intend to rasterize for the web, there are two settings you want to have turned off: The document-level Align New Objects to Pixel Grid setting, and the object-level Align to Pixel Grid command.
I checked, and found that "snap to point" was not checked...
Generally speaking, you'll probably want to usually work with Snap To Point on. But be aware that Illustrator snaps (especially Snap To Grid) are not always reliable at smaller than 100% zoom. SmartGuides is the only reliable snapping behavior in Illustrator, but it doesn't serve for all purposes.I am making artwork for cutting on a computer controlled "router"...
Is there any compelling technical reason you are using Illustrator for this kind of work? For example, are you using an Illustrator plug-in to drive your NC equipment or something? The reason I ask will be explained later. But first, another workaround...
You can use the Line Tool as a workaround to determine the angle of an existing straight segment:
- SmartGuides on.
- LineTool: Trace over the straight segment, as follows:
- Mouseover one anchor point of the straight segment. When the cursor is within the pick distance, SmartGuides indicateds "anchor". Mousedown.
- Drag to the anchor point at the other end of the segment. SmartGuides again senses the anchor point.
- Mouseup.
- Tap Delete to delete the path you just drew with the Line Tool.
- DoubleClick the Line Tool. It's dialog opens and indicates the angle of the path you just drew and deleted.
- Now you know the amount the path needs to be rotated in order to return the segment to a horizontal or vertical orientation. (If you want, you can select and copy the angle value.)
- Select the whole path.
- DoubleClick the Rotate Tool. In its dialog, enter the desired rotation. (Or paste it and key a minus sign in front of it.)
In other words, get in the habit of using Illustrator's Line Tool for the purposes intended for its worthless Measure Tool (which, absurdly, does not abide by snaps).
Now, that said...
Both the above-described use of the Line Tool as a measuring device and the other workarounds offered so far in this thread (basically variations on using the Rotate Tool, setting the center of transformation, and snapping to a horizontal or vertical segment of another path) assume the path you want to return to its original rotation includes straight segments which were originally horizontal or vertical. But what if the path's straight segment was not originally verticle or horizontal? What if it has no straight segments?
... the rotation window should call the [current rotation] "relative angle". And...should allow the user to click on any segment within a shape, and then that segment's "absolute angle" would be displayed...
Correct. Illustrator does, in fact, "know" the current rotation of a path relative to its original orientation. You can see this by simply:
- Pen Tool: Draw a path consisting only of curved segments.
- Black pointer: The path's bounding box displays. Mouse around one of the bounding box corners and watch for the rotate cursor. Arbitrarily rotate it a few times.
- Note that the bound box is rotated (i.e.; Illustrator knows the path is rotated).
- Knife Tool: Cut the path into two objects. Deselect.
- Black Pointer: Drag one of the two objects elsewhere. Note that its bounding box is still rotated.
- White Pointer: Click on a segment (not on an anchor).
- Copy.
- Paste.
- Black Pointer: Note that the pasted path's bounding box is still rotated.
- Object>Transform>Reset Bounding Box. Only now is the bounding box redrawn to the horizontal/vertical bounds of the path.
So Illustrator does "know" the current rotation of a path. But it lamely fails to provide the user access to the value. Throughout the above steps, the Rotation field of the Transform palette reads zero.
What about using the Line Tool to measure the angle? Nope. As soon as you select the Line Tool, bounding boxes disappear; you can't snap to them.
You can make a feature request and wait for it if you want. Good luck with that. I've been pointing out this sub-standard feature omission for many years--which brings me back to my original question.
...though CAD software addresses the absolute angle issues with ease, they don't provide the same fredom of artistic expression...
There are multiple other programs available in Illustrator's category (2D Bezier-based general-purpose illustration and design) which are more amenable to CAD-related workflows and mindsets. All of these provide access to the numerical rotation of a path, relative to its original as-created orientation:
Corel Technical Designer. Essentially a version of Corel Draw enhanced with technical-drawing oriented functionality from what used to be Micrografx Designer. It's relatively pricey largely because it provides mechanisms for importing 3D models from CAD apps, rotating them a desired viewpoint, and flattening them to regular native D2 drawings which can then be further enhanced in a Draw-like environment.
Corel Draw. One of the venerable applications which, like Illustrator, date back to the beginnings of the "desktop publishing revolution," and therefore one of its historic direct competitors, just like...
Deneba Canvas (now owned by ADC). Canvas's feature set and accuracy is more CAD-like, being genetically related to Deneba CAD. It's another full-featured general-purpose 2D drawing/design/publishing program, but one which actually embraces technical illustration instead of acting ashamed of it. Canvas actually provides (among much more) a toggle between displaying transformed and untransformed dimensions.
Serif DrawPlus. This drawing program has somehow flown under the radar (at least mine) since 1993. Current version is X6 (2013). It also provides access to transformed values. Its Pen has one of the best primary Bezier drawing tool interfaces out there. Despite its $99 price, it is surprisingly full-featured (dimensions, connectors, ActionScript based animation), and even includes an innovative treatment of live grids for axonometric drawing (something near and dear to me).
Each of the above programs can probably be had at a competitive sidegrade discount, and of course none of them restrict you to a take-it-or-leave-it subscription-only purchase scheme to stay current.
JET
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22. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 26, 2014 2:26 PM (in response to JETalmage)Hello JET!!! Thanks for all of your detailed information. The info on the other perhaps/probably more appropriate drawing packages is really appreciated! Essentially I have been using Illustrator, because that is what they teach at our community college. Because art type work is not common in CNC work, my CNC reading has never exposed me to these other types of software you have introduced me to. Can you recommend any on-line source for information on the types of software you have referred to, so that I can plug into that to build an awareness of what is going on in that community?
Again, I am frankly disappointed that the functionality I have described is not available in Illustrator. But I am HIGHLY IMPRESSED with all of the great input, suggestions and advice that my querry has yielded! So thank you all, and thanks to Adobe for providing such an open and uncensored forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks a million,,,,,,, Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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23. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
cpbrodd Jan 26, 2014 11:48 PM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)If you are interested in using a plug-in there is a fantastic one from Astute Graphics that is free and it will let you bring any shape into alignment to 90° with just a simple 2-click process. Just click on one point as an anchor, click on another point which you would like bring into alignment with the first, then hold shift and drag. It will snap to the 90° angles as you drag it around. It may even snap to 45° angles, but I am not sure. I use it all of the time, but only to straighten out randomly rotated objects to 90° from which I can get to 45° easily afterwards if I wish.
The plug in is called Subscribe and it is free from Astute Graphics. They have a host of other paid plug-ins that are impossible for me to live without. Check them out if you have time.
Here is the link to Subscribe:
http://www.astutegraphics.com/software/subscribe/
Subscribe does a few other things too, but they are not on-topic here.
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24. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
JETalmage Jan 27, 2014 5:42 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)Can you recommend any on-line source for information on the types of software you have referred to...
They all offer downloadable demos. Try them out. Their user forums can be found through their respective web sites.
If you are interested in using a plug-in there is a fantastic one from Astute Graphics that is free and it will let you bring any shape into alignment to 90° with just a simple 2-click process.
Again, that functionality as described does not return an object to its original as-created orientation, which is what Chuck's original post says he's looking for ("relative" vs. "absolute" rotation.)
Consider: It would be fairly trivial to write a Javascript which figures the angle between two selected anchors and then rotates the object to which they belong to make that angle zero or 90. But what's really at issue is the orientation of the object's bounding box, as displayed in the interface. I know I dinked around with this at one time, and don't recall for sure, but I don't think the Javascript implemenation provides access to the bounding box rotation. If it does, I suspect it would likely reside in the transform matrix, but I think I tried that and came up with nothing.
To me, it's just so much kicking against the thorns anyway, when the basic functionality of tracking an object's as-created orientation is so common in other programs. It would be a simple thing for Illustrator to display to the user the rotation of the bounding box, but it just doesn't, despite this having been brought up for many years. There's no law that says you can only use one drawing program at a time. Use a suitable tool for the job.
JET
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25. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne Jan 27, 2014 9:19 AM (in response to JETalmage)Thanks CPB and JET. Yes JET your understanding of my application is correct as to absolute orientation. I did go and look at the website for Serif's Draw Plus and it seemed very attractive. I'll look at the other sites.
But as to my wish for a magazine that would provide an awareness of the over-all illustrating community, my basic point was how can someone become aware of all these programs in the first place? I mean, not what they do, (which one would get from their websites), but to simply become aware that they even exist in the first place? Just like CPB knowing that Astute Graphics even existed in the first place. It would seem unlikely to me that awareness of so many products (I'm sure you know many more) would come about by randomly searching the Web. So, my guess was that there was an on-line industry publication, letting people know what new products had been introduced, which were upgraded, examples of work in the field, which company bought which other company. That is what I was wondering, though that is off topic.
Thanks again, Chuck
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26. Re: Rotation: How to directly obtain/restore orthogonality in CS6?
JETalmage Jan 27, 2014 9:48 AM (in response to chuck.keysor@sbcglobal.ne)It would seem unlikely to me that awareness of so many products (I'm sure you know many more) would come about by randomly searching the Web.
For me, it's always just been a matter of being involved. I've never liked feeling captive to one particular software vendor for things critical to my livelihood; and I just like knowing what I'm talking about when comparing various programs (especially 2D drawing programs).
But what's random about doing a Google search for "vector drawing programs" just as one might do a search for "CAD programs" or "3D modeling programs"?
As I mentioned, I've somehow overlooked DrawPlus for a long time. I ordered it when I was actually looking into and placing an order for Serif's page-layout application, PagePlus. The pricing was reasonable enough that I ordered all five of their primary offerings. (Came with printed user guides, by the way.)
JET





