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1,760. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
R Neil Haugen Jan 28, 2014 3:04 PM (in response to Andy Bay)My ... the humor of this thread keeps going on and on.
Oh, yea, I'm SO worried my marketing secrets are SO important they'll be shared by the NSA! You can't really be serious about that comment? Scratch that ..." paranoia strikes deep ... into the heart it will creep ... "
All our computers are on our internal network so we don't have to hand-carry drives back and forth, and have quick usage of material. We don't have spare computers lying around. And all of us here use the web as a standard part of our working life ... calendars, email, client contacts, you name it. So ... yes, I find the whole idea of TERRIBLE FEAR OF ... others ... rather humorous. We back up, we clone, we have good "walls" and protocols. And we just work. And if you can figure out how anything here is useful to the NSA I'll laugh myself silly. Nothing we do is all that earth-shaking.
Do understand, I'm NOT a fan of the sort of data-probing they've clearly done.
And the whole thing about "But you don't know what they'll (Adobe) be charging in future years!" is such a pile of bunk. YOU don't know what the per-license for anything YOU'VE got will be in several years. And I'll be able to migrate away from Adobe just as easily as you any time I choose. Silly argument.
And the "if you love subscriptions so much ... " comment ... really now. I hope you are capable of better rhetorical arguments than that. Why do you insist on bringing emotions into it? I didn't say anything whatever ... nor imply anything ... that I had ANY emotional attachment to ANY kind of purchase/delivery model. You apparently are rather unaware of how many people do thoroughly enjoy renting or leasing apartments, houses, and cars. By preference, after having also owned the same. I've rented, owned, and leased all kinds of things. Somehow, I've survived! Amazing, that ... really!
Good criminy, "subscription" services of all kinds of services and products have been used for centuries. So flipping WHAT?! If the product or service works fine for someone that way, either as vendor or client, GREAT. If not ... GREAT. Why do you have such a strong emotional reaction to subscrption models? It certainly can be a preference for certain things one way or the other but to take this to the extreme you seem to is rather ... well ... extreme.
And whether or not Adobe thinks they have a monopoly ... they don't. If at some point I don't appreciate their products/services/support as much as someone else's, I'll have the same ability to choose to go elsewhere as you or any other human. You seem to insist that Adobe will have some what ... thought control? ... blackmail threat? ... something? ... to compel me and others to simply quiver in fear and pay any exorbitant fee they come up with, and accept any proviso they demand, without any recourse to any other option. Wow, just bizarre. I do find your clear assumption that you've got the FUTURE spelled out so much better than anyone that doesn't agree with you rather insulting to the intelligence and character of all those who don't choose your line of ... reating. I DON'T have a crystal ball, and don't feel a need for one. When any company I deal with changes the "deal", I make decisions and roll with it.
I'm not stupid, vapid, or a dependent child, nor intimidated by anyone. But I do find the whole tenor of this thread funny. Or I wouldn't be bothering with it. I'm certainly not intimidated by the level of reasoning in the arguments here. Living one's life in such fear ... well, it does seem sad, after a while.
Neil
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1,761. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
R Neil Haugen Jan 28, 2014 3:22 PM (in response to TheCoroner9)coroner ...
"When a company casts aside a portion of their customer base and ignores their business $ there is little doubt for many they could do it again on another issue..."
Companies are not entities in and of themselves. They are ... get this! HUMANS. Who yes, could choose to do any durn thing they like at any time. Go figure, huh? The same as ... oh yea, any other group of humans. Wow.
Over the last 50 year as I've watched the world go by (not counting the first ten, though even they I was more aware of "the world" than most of my peers) I've noted many companies change their product lines, identities, delivery models, pricing structures, let go of chunks of user-base to go after other segments of potential markets, any blame thing you can think of. Sometimes it's worked out well, sometimes not so much. So ... again ... in what possible way is what Adobe is doing different than any other company I've EVER seen? Oh ... that would be ... nothing.
They've made decisions as to how to deliver their product, pricing, and what sort of client-base is their "ideal client", just like any and EVERY other company. Just as my company has done numerous times over the last 35 years. You know, when I first started as a portrait photographer, my prices were rather low. I got better at it, better at looking at the books, and realized I needed to up my prices a CHUNK to make a living. Did some previous clients feel ... dis-enfranchised, perhaps? Oh, heck yea. But you know, the newer ones paid the higher prices and were actually much more positive about appreciating my services than the ol' compainers ever had been.
You could easily say I threw away a good chunk of my users. Dang straight, I sure did. Made a temporary dip in the income stream also. But resulted in a much better income stream down the road. Been through this a couple times since. Decided we needed a change in model or pricing structure, or a change in the market we were pursuing.
You must be totally horrified about this. And yea, I could do this at any time to my current clients, couldn't I? Oh ... oops ... I'm adding video capabilities into my product/service list. I'm doing it again!
If ... as you seem SO certain of and horrified about ... Adobe's bottom-line profits dip for a bit, what in the world is it of concern to you? You clearly are shouting you hate them ... the evil money-grubbing secret-stealing hacks! So, I'd think you'd be thrilled to sit back and chuckle about their imminent demise. You KNOW this model can't work and is going to break them.
Or are you really afraid it's going to work out just fine in the end for them? Either way, it will be more amusing to me to listen to the worries, frights, and concerns of the folks screaming of the horrors of the cloud than about anything else out there.
Because no matter what Adobe decides to do at any time, I and the others choosing to utilize their products will always have our own options separate from Adobe. Just as you do. Wow. Did you know there are alternate programs for every single one of the video related programs they have? That many top-line pros actually ... I know this may be a shock ... don't even USE Adobe software.
Go figure ...
Neil
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1,762. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Jan 28, 2014 4:30 PM (in response to R Neil Haugen)Neil, I find it ironic that you say I have a "strong emotional reaction" to this issue. If you compare our posts, it's pretty clear which one is using more emotionally loaded language. Hint: Writing words in all caps, using exlamation marks and of course using words like "So flipping WHAT?! ".
I also notice the rather lame debate tactic your try to use, in which you constantly try to bring up how "funny" you find the arguments of your opponents. Too bad that I'm not really interested in what your particular sense of humor deems funny, I'm more interested in the actual arguments and facts. Let's take a look at what, if anything, you have to say as actual arguments.
Oh, yea, I'm SO worried my marketing secrets are SO important they'll be shared by the NSA!
Here your great rebuttal seems to focus on pointing out how unimportant the work you do is. Based on that attitude I'm sure it stays unimportant in the future as well, so I guess you are right about not having to worry about intelligence agensies being interested. So I'm willing to grant you the point that people doing unimportant work, and seeking to do so also in the future, won't have to care as much about industrial spying.
I didn't say anything whatever ... nor imply anything ... that I had ANY emotional attachment to ANY kind of purchase/delivery model.
Your communication style does seem pretty emotionally charged. I would also like to point out that I have nothing against subscriptions if perpetual licences are also offered. When the subscription was voluntary during CS6, I was happy about having that as an option. I'm advocating for choice. I'm not sure why you would consider that to be a bad thing.
But you don't know what they'll (Adobe) be charging in future years!" is such a pile of bunk. YOU don't know what the per-license for anything YOU'VE got will be in several years.
Instead of attacking my argument, you try to make the argument that I won't know the costs either. This is clearly false, since my cost of using my Adobe products is zero dollars for as long as I want. I have perpetual licences.
You apparently are rather unaware of how many people do thoroughly enjoy renting or leasing apartments, houses, and cars.
I would argue most people would rather buy those things than keep renting them year after year. Renting a car for a day? Might be okay. Renting a car every day for 10 years? Doesn't sound very smart to me.
I've rented, owned, and leased all kinds of things. Somehow, I've survived! Amazing, that ... really!
It's not about survival.
Why do you have such a strong emotional reaction to subscrption models?
I have presented you factual arguments, not emotions. Your own post seemed to include a lot of emotionally charged words like:
"humor, worried, TERRIBLE FEAR, humorous, I'll laugh myself silly, Silly argument, Amazing, that ... really! So flipping WHAT?! extreme, quiver in fear, Wow, just bizarre, insulting, I'm not stupid, intimidated, funny, intimidated, fear, sad"
I do find your clear assumption that you've got the FUTURE spelled out so much better than anyone that doesn't agree with you rather insulting to the intelligence and character of all those who don't choose your line of ... reating.
I never said I know the future. But I can make educated guesses based on the facts of the situation and past behavior of Adobe. I can also look at the evidence of NSA spying on foreign companies and acknowledge they seem to have every intention to continue doing that. I recommend you try to not get insulted at someone predicting what the future might bring. Predicting future outcomes is one of the most important skills we humans have.
When any company I deal with changes the "deal", I make decisions and roll with it.
Seems like you cheer for reactionary behavior. I personally don't think that alone is a good enough strategy to deal with the world.
I'm not stupid, vapid, or a dependent child, nor intimidated by anyone. But I do find the whole tenor of this thread funny. Or I wouldn't be bothering with it. I'm certainly not intimidated by the level of reasoning in the arguments here.
You seem to have the need to do a lot of convincing of how un-intimidated you feel.
Living one's life in such fear ... well, it does seem sad, after a while.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I don't live in fear. That's because I have eliminated the threats that could create fear. For example, I know my most important work is safe from online threats, because my computer doesn't go online. Absolutely no fear there. I also don't enter into business deals that have unpredictable future costs. No fear there either.
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1,763. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
shooternz Jan 28, 2014 4:25 PM (in response to TheCoroner9)You want a valid poll? You already know about the online petition against CC. This thread is still being discussed how long after CC's released? There are quite a few people in this thread beyond me and "a few others." When online articles popup about CC - scroll down to the comments section - again mostly negative.
Of course.
If you hang out at the monkeys cage...you will find lots of monkeys. If you hang out at in the eagles cage..you will find eagles.
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1,764. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Jan 28, 2014 4:30 PM (in response to R Neil Haugen)Living one's life in such fear ... well, it does seem sad, after a while.
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1,765. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
TheCoroner9 Jan 28, 2014 4:42 PM (in response to R Neil Haugen)R. Neil Haugen wrote:
coroner ...
"When a company casts aside a portion of their customer base and ignores their business $ there is little doubt for many they could do it again on another issue..."
as you seem SO certain of and horrified about ... Adobe's bottom-line profits dip for a bit, what in the world is it of concern to you? You clearly are shouting you hate them ... the evil money-grubbing secret-stealing hacks! So, I'd think you'd be thrilled to sit back and chuckle about their imminent demise. You KNOW this model can't work and is going to break them.
Or are you really afraid it's going to work out just fine in the end for them? Either way, it will be more amusing to me to listen to the worries, frights, and concerns of the folks screaming of the horrors of the cloud than about anything else out there.
Because no matter what Adobe decides to do at any time, I and the others choosing to utilize their products will always have our own options separate from Adobe. Just as you do. Wow. Did you know there are alternate programs for every single one of the video related programs they have? That many top-line pros actually ... I know this may be a shock ... don't even USE Adobe software.
Go figure ...
Neil
Next time read my posts. I'm not shouting I hate them. I'm shouting what they don't want to hear - That I'm willing to pay them, as many others are, 2x the original cost of the perpetual license to get non subscription software. You see, I want to pay them more $ than I would pay them via subscription.
The major problem with Adobe is that they told their customer base they were all about CHOICE and then with CC they took CHOICE away.
Oh I know about alternative programs. I've already purchased Edius. Just finishing up two long projects already started in CS6.
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1,766. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
R Neil Haugen Jan 28, 2014 5:38 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Andy,
Your arguments and comments are based several things. First, on presumptions of another group's future behavior ... which is, as we all know, a heavily fact-based way to argue a point. Right!
Especially from someone who is far removed from those who will make the decisions over time, and has clearly ideas of the World and Humanity which seem to be different than those other humans who are going to ... over time ... and in varying arrays of individuals involved ... make those decisions. It's such a solid, tight basis for an argument. In this thread, I've used the term "argument" as meaning something used in a rhetorical discussion, not something used because of being angry or upset. Just ... a rhetorical argument. Please do understand that.
But in any rhetorical training I've been through, suppositions about future behaviors by other unknown persons are not considered "facts". In any way, shape, or form.
Next, you seem to have a very strong personal feeling against renting or leasing. Fine. I've known many people who feel just like you do. In many cases, renting costs more over time, and purchasing a "finite" product is more advantageous. Yes, more people choose to buy a car rather than lease one. Which doesn't say anything at all about the reasons, many very valid, for when leasing makes as much or more sense. I've got acquiantances who are going to always be in a newer car, and fairly nice one at that. Period. It's the way they like to live. They see no reason to buy and sell, since they'll always be turning their cars over in a couple years anyway. Leasing works perfectly for them. For us, we like nice transportation but at a lower cost ... so we tend to buy 2-3 year old vehicles and sell them between 8-10 years. Leasing a car isn't out best option currently, but I don't rule out that I would never lease a car.
For many businesses, leasing an asset like a car or truck or ditch-digging equipment makes a LOT more sense than owning the thing. Most contractors around here don't own a backhoe, for instance; they rent by the day. Why? Blame things are spendy and it would be stupid to pay all that money for something they use a couple days a month, maybe up to 10 days in a busy month. At what point does it make sense for them to buy such a tool? For many contracting businesses, they don't buy major tools, as it gives them a definitive cost-per-job to lease/rent as needed. Direct expensing on tax reports and financial statements. Whether or not it "sounds smart" to you is completely irrelevant. It's smart to them. And very common.
So just because you don't like renting or leasing is irrlelevant to whether or not it is a viable or at times even preferable option for other people. Renting and leasing all sorts of things are both here to stay. And valued by many for parts of their lives or their businesses.
My "emotionally charged" comments are becuase I'm laughing so hard at times. Not to be mean, but ... wow. And no, my comment about survival had actually nothing to do with survival. Maybe you missed something there ...
And next ... Yea, you've got "const control" with a perpetual license ... for a product about two generations out of date. Enjoy it all you want, no one is standing in your way. It's your choice, mon ami, you know? You're welcome to stay back with that version, as it was offered with a perp license. But there's nothing anywhere that says every company has to continue doing business the same fashion in which they started forever. And either way, if you choose to come up to a newer product, you'll have to pay something to someone. I'm choosing to stay with the newer product, so of course I'll have to pay one way or the other.
I cheer for reactionary behavior? Wow. I plan more than most people, I've had this business for 35+ years and we would not have survived had we not been able to plan and follow through better than most people. However, I know darn well that NO one sees the future too well. Even most science fiction writers were blindsided by the sudden creation and over-whelming use of cell-phones. All their books ... many scrupulously thought through ... of life in the future, and they didn't see that coming. All the time some of those authors spent with physicists and engineers and cosmologists to "see" what The Future might hold ... and before we even got near that Future, they got blasted with cell phones in current use.
So, you who knows the future, tell me exactly what your next NLE is going to cost you ... and the precise date you'll buy it ... or do you plan to use an already 2-year old program 20 years from now?
No, I don't need a lot of convincing as to how un-intimidated I feel. But every argument you've used is based on the ability of Adobe and the NSA (which you've somehow conflated) to coerce behavior out of their (supposedly tiny) remaining user-base. And therefore, as I'm one of that user-base, me. That I'll be forced to pay outrageous amounts ... that at some point I'll suddenly never be able to use my own files ever again ... that everything I do, say, and create is certain fodder for the NSA in their devious plot to apparently steal ideas and content and portrait-client videos to push American business interests. That one's a bit of a stretch, but well ... you've made it clear you know this to be the case. Of course, as I am an American, apparently the NSA is going to steal my little videos to push ... oh wait, that's kind of ... convoluted. Huh. Well, something you're sure I won't like. Right.
And as someone who's been in business coming close to 40 years, I've seen little and massive recessions, interest rates from 25% to 1.2%, unemployment from 22% to 2.5%, and noticed that these things are predictable only in that the present is never the future, and business cycles will cycle through. No matter what one does, one does need to move with the flow as things go by. No one knows exactly how long any growth period will last, nor the date of the next downturn, nor the date of the upturn ... nor what industries will take hits unforeseen by nearly any anlyst (as always happens).
My peers in the portrait photog business that did not do so as well over the last decade as my wife and I are now doing things like driving city buses, working in call-centers and such not. People who'd had good businesses with very good incomes much larger than ours for 20 years and more. But the last ten years have so changed the portrait-photo market that few studios make a good living as many of us used to. No one had predicted such a massive loss of that trade. Not until it was well underway, and by then, it was too late for many businesses.
We had to change everything about our business, our products, our model, and our very idea of what our business was about at heart to STAY in business. If we didn't have a better-than-average ability to react to changing situations, we wouldn't BE in business. Because it isn't just "predictable costs" that matters, even though our ability to reduce and control costs has been part of what kept us in business. You've got to be doing a business that clients want NOW, not one that could sell ten years ago. And at times, in business, one gets blindsided. You try to hold this down as much as possible, but it will happen. And if you can't react, if you can't roll with it and come up still selling to a willing clientele, you're hosed. Find a way to turn troubles into possibilities. Do some head-scratching.
We work hard to plan and plan well, and to work a plan over time. We also know we have to constantly revise the plans based on many factors well beyond the ability to plan or predict. Such as client tastes for photo-imaging products. Wow, the last 35 years have seen some swings and changes. Photographer-client relationships ... um ... vastly different now than even ten years ago. One used to need to cultivate one's Professional Status in the community. Now ... one needs to become friendly on one's blog and other online presences where your potential clients might see you, because they aren't going to be coming to you because you've been a stable business and constant award-winning artist: they'll come because your pics look good and well, it seems like you'd be nice or fun to work with.
Those changes that I'm reacting to include the need to introduce video products, and mixed stills/video products into our studio. Not currently because we'll sell big dollar amounts of video footage, but because by offering and featuring those products, we'll get people in the door ... who'll then still buy our wall prints and groupings and albums. This is how a lot of the successful portrait studios market these days. The guy that most predicted this would come ... and that only about three years back ... was thought nuts. The lone voice in the wilderness. But it's here now. So we adapt. We react. And our business survives.
As it will in the future, both planned and un-predicted. What's Adobe going to do with their pricing? Not a huge concern. With their model? Not a huge concern. If it becomes in my interest to jump to a different "brand", fine. I've done it before, will certainly do it again. And in the meantime, I do so enjoy the direct-link over to Speedgrade for grading, the similar link to Ae for graphics and some other things ... Audition for sound if needed (not often, but hey, it's there and I've used it) and Encoder to prep for delivery. Getting more into both Story and Prelude because I'm learning how to use them to get a better focused control of my projects with them. Life's good.
And of course, I do let 'em know when I've hit a bump with their software. And also when it's been great for me. Which is is the vast majority of the time.
Neil
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1,767. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
able123 Jan 28, 2014 5:57 PM (in response to R Neil Haugen)===========
I know darn well that NO one sees the future too well
==========
In New Hyde Park, NY , on Jericho Turnpike, there is a palm reader. It's a mother and daughter who live in an apartment on the 2nd floor of a little building and the ground floor has the magical palm reading room they use. It is across the street from a bar that recently burned down ..but a few years ago it was more than a hot spot... it was the neighborhood old man bar... shots and beers and nothing fancy.
One patron of the bar ( a regular ) happened to be moseying past the palm reader across the street on his way to the bar.. and said hello to the mother and daughter who were sitting on folding chairs on the sidewalk on front of their palm reading shop. It was really hot out and humid. He asked them, " Why are you sitting out here in the heat ? " They replied, " The electricity went out and there is no AC ". He looked at the shop window with all the astrological symbols and the palm reading ads which proclaimed magical powers and back to the mother and daughter.
He asked them, " Didn't you see that coming ? "
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JSS1138 Jan 28, 2014 11:10 PM (in response to R Neil Haugen) -
1,769. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Bill Hunt Jan 29, 2014 7:02 AM (in response to able123)" Didn't you see that coming ? "
Good one Rodney.
Hunt
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1,770. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
able123 Jan 29, 2014 7:20 AM (in response to Bill Hunt)hehe.. is true too !
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1,771. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Jason R Brandt Jan 30, 2014 5:28 PM (in response to shooternz)If you like the cloud, and it works for you, you don't need to be on this thread. Your comments are irrelevant.
Are you serious!. Very open minded of you to call anyones opinions "irrelevant".
Do you work for the government?
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"Noise"...yep..I am part of the noise. Forums are a conversation and reading and responding is how that works.
I am largely here for the entertainment since the arguments have long since been exhausted.
FWIW - I have never argued for against the CC model and never tried tro convince anyone either way. ( I dont care ).
I do enjoy arguing the arguments those.
So you don't care. You're here for the entertainment.
Great... that really helps.
Thank you for that. And you want me to think your comments are relevant?
I simply want Adobe to offer a perpetual license.
It really doesn't need any more discussion.
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1,772. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
shooternz Feb 3, 2014 3:24 PM (in response to Jason R Brandt)Great... that really helps.
Thank you for that. And you want me to think your comments are relevant?
I simply want Adobe to offer a perpetual license.
I am not here to help or advise you how to run your business, software or life so I don't care.
You can judge relevancy on comments I made early in the debate that you can take or leave for what they are worth. I don't care. You have asked Adobe for a Perpetual licence.
I have no influence in that matter... so I cant care.
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1,773. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 8:07 AM (in response to R Neil Haugen)Neil, let me start by responding to some of the claims you make.
1. You claim that I'm not using facts as basis for my arguments.
So let me present an argument based on facts and a conclusion. Please show where the argument fails.
Fact 1: Adobe has less paying CC users than it had paying CS6 users.
Fact 2: Adobe is predicting higher future income based on it's new subscription model.
Conclusion: If facts 1 and 2 continue to stay true, CC users will necessarily have to pay more money to Adobe in the future.
Here's another fact based argument:
Fact 1. NSA wants to, and has been using it's capabilities to gather information on foreign companies in order to give US an advantage over them. This has been confirmed by several reliable sources, like Edward Snowden and other NSA employees.
Fact 2. NSA has been accessing cloud services to gather large parts of this information. US based companies are not allowed to report this to the consumers.
Fact 3. Adobe has a US based cloud service.
Conclusion: NSA is likely to want access to Adobe's cloud. Adobe will have to comply and can't tell this to the consumers.
You say you're an american and wont have to worry about that. Good for you.
2. You also seem to suggest that future can't be predicted based on the knowledge of the past. You write that I base my arguments "presumptions of another group's future behavior" and try to make it sound like it's impossible to predict the future in fact based manner.
This, of course is a false notion. I can perfectly predict, that the floor under me won't collapse when I walk on it, based on my knowledge of it not doing so in the past. I can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow based on my knowledge of it's past behavior. And I can predict that a company controlled by the interests of it's stock holders, will do anything they possibly can in order to gain as much profit as possible.
3. You try to make the case, that many people like renting/leasing. I have no objection to that. But these people have the option to choose if they want to buy or rent. I'm simply asking for Adobe to give us that choice as well. Why aren't you? I'm not saying Adobe should stop offering the subscription. I'm saying Adobe should let it's customers choose which model fits their situation better. That should be a win-win situation for everyone, unless Adobe thinks it can benefit from forcing people to subscribe. Now if Adobe thinks it can make more money by forcing people to subscribe, why do you think that is? Could it be because Adobe knows it can keep extracting higher and higher prices from the subscribers without giving them any realistic exit option? Why else would Adobe not want to please everyone by offering subscriptions and perpetual licenses side-by-side?
So, you who knows the future, tell me exactly what your next NLE is going to cost you
Anything I choose to pay, ranging from open source (free) to thousands of dollars. The choice is mine, because I can vote with my wallet.
for a product about two generations out of date.
Please explain to me what you can do with CC that I can't do with my "outdated "CS6 that has a big impact on the end result? If you're a painter, it's not the paint brush that's going to make you a professional. It's how you can use that paint brush. You don't need to buy the latest bells and whistles just so you're not "outdated". People that are not very talented always think their work is sub-standard simply because others have better tools. That's not usually the case IMHO.
I will end with two interesting observations:
During the recent weeks both the CEO and the SVP have dumped significant amounts of their Adobe stocks. Shantanu has dumped 404351 shares during the last 2 weeks. SVP Naresh Gupta unloaded 102,633 shares, leaving him with only 28,532 shares. I wonder if they know something the public isn't yet aware of...
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1,774. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
shooternz Feb 3, 2014 3:35 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Please explain to me what you can do with CC that I can't do with my "outdated "CS6 that has a big impact on the end result? If you're a painter, it's not the paint brush that's going to make you a professional. It's how you can use
You will discover the answer to the above when your clients are able to do more at "their place" and don't need you any more. No matter how skilled you are as a "painter".
Clients have always known the capability of facilities ( and that includes hardware and software and app packages).
This stuff used to be exclusive to "pros". Now it is available to anyone... so beware any smugness regarding how ones own skills factor in. I have seen many instances where business have taken work "in house: Advertising Agencies are an example.
What business are you in?
FWIW
CC SpeedGrade DL would be an example of something that "has a big impact on the end result" that CS6 wont do. It can have also a significant impact on income / profit stream.
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1,775. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 12:36 PM (in response to shooternz)You will discover the answer to the above when your clients are able to do more at "their place" and dont need you any more. No matter how skilled you are as a "painter".
Things like consumer video cameras and free editing programs have existed for more than 20 years. I don't see many business owners making their own commercials with those affordable tools. Why not? Because making good videos is a difficult process and you need years of training and experience to master it. I'm sure many business owners once tried to buy a camera and shoot their own commercials. Until they realized how crappy the results were. That's why I don't buy your argument. The tools for car repair are cheap and available for everyone. That hasn't made the majority to start fixing their own cars. It's not about the tools. It's about knowledge and skills.
What business are you in?
I mainly do video productions, 2d/3d animations and front end web development.
CC Speedgrade DL would be an example of something that "has a big impact on the end result" that CS6 wont do.
So are you saying I can't make all the same color corrections/gradings with CS6? Why exactly is that?
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1,776. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
shooternz Feb 3, 2014 3:26 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Because making good videos is a difficult process and you need years of training and experience to master it.
You know that..I know that...clients dont always know that.
It's about knowledge and skills.
You know that..I know that...clients dont always know that.
There are a massive amount of TVCs shot with the ubiquitous 5D. I can pick them because of the 5D look.
I know agencies that shoot with that tool. I know and have discussed the attitude with these people.
The answer is..we can fix it in post. (By which they mostly mean FCP.)
Last year a regular gig I did was taken in house by the agency. Direct / shoot / post produce. Bye bye client.
Yes...you can CC and Grade in CS6 No doubt at all.
But its a clunky experience by comparison and only clip by clip.
It can not mask or key and offers no realtime play experience. Usually a fixed frame in a clip is worked on with no scrubabilty.
It can not show the colorist adjacent clips ( multiple play heads and monitors for reference) etc....
SG and Resolve are smooth and sensitive UIs with a logic for C and Grade.
If you used Resolve or Speedgrade..you would discover the difference and its especially noticable if you have a client sitting beside you.
For me the difference is ..many of the jobs I took out of house to CC and Grade...are now done in house. (and that is $$$ and efficiency)
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1,777. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:38 PM (in response to shooternz)[Dude, what's with the gray text in your posts recently?]
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1,778. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:32 PM (in response to shooternz)You know that..I know that...clients dont always know that.
My point was that they will know that, after they have tried do it themselves once.
There are a massive amount of TVCs shot with the ubiquitous 5D.
Sure, but they don't just hire some random person with a 5D to shoot a tv show. Either they have lots of past experience in making tv shows or at the minimum they are film students.
But its a clunky experience by comparison and only clip by clip.
Okay so you only focused on comparing SpeedGrade CC to SpeedGrade CS6. But can you explain what you can do with SpeedGrade that a skilled person can't do with the combination of Premiere and After Effects?
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1,779. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:31 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Why else would Adobe not want to please everyone by offering subscriptions and perpetual licenses side-by-side?
One possibility is that's it's just not practical. They tried offering both with CS6, and we subscribers really got nothing new (at least for PP) during that period, which is really the key benefit of the subscription model.
Then the perpetual was dropped, and we've now had three feature updates in less than a year.
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1,780. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:33 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Please explain to me what you can do with CC that I can't do with my "outdated "CS6 that has a big impact on the end result?
The end result may or may not be any different, but the process of getting there sure is a hell of a lot easier and more efficient with CC than CS6.
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1,781. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:38 PM (in response to JSS1138)Jim, can you explain how it would not be practical?
Yes, it might require the work of a few extra employees. But they would get millions of dollars in return. Unless of course they calculate, that by forcing people to subscibe, they will eventually be able to extract even more money. That's the only explanation of why it makes sense to turn down millions of dollars just waiting to come to you.
If the subscription model is so great for people, why is Adobe so afraid to offer perpetual licenses side by side? Wouldn't everyone just choose the subscription anyway?
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1,782. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:36 PM (in response to JSS1138)The end result may or may not be any different, but the process of getting there sure is a hell of a lot easier and more efficient with CC than CS6.
Okay, give me the best example of this that you have to offer.
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1,783. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:38 PM (in response to shooternz)It can not show the colorist adjacent clips ( multiple play heads and monitors for reference) etc....
I love that feature of SpeedGrade. Made it very easy to match some clips shot with a different WB to those that were shot correctly.
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1,784. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:39 PM (in response to Andy Bay)My point was that they will know that, after they have tried do it themselves once.
If only that were so...
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1,785. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:39 PM (in response to JSS1138)I love that feature of SpeedGrade. Made it very easy to match some clips shot with a different WB to those that were shot correctly.
yeah because matching white balance has been so difficult in the past..
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1,786. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:41 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Jim, can you explain how it would not be practical?
In a way that you would accept? Probably not.
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1,787. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:43 PM (in response to JSS1138)In a way that you would accept? Probably not.
I will accept reason and logic. Do you have arguments like that to present or will you just cop out?
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1,788. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:44 PM (in response to Andy Bay)give me the best example of this that you have to offer.
Towards what end? I provided one example as a response to shooter in post 1783. All you did was make fun of it.
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1,789. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:46 PM (in response to Andy Bay)I will accept reason and logic
Your past posts belie that assertion.
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1,790. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:47 PM (in response to JSS1138)Towards what end? I provided one example as a response to shooter in post 1783. All you did was make fun of it.
So that's the best thing you got? Matching white balance of two shots? Sorry, but I'm not impressed.
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1,791. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 3:48 PM (in response to JSS1138)Your past posts belie that assertion.
So cop out it shall be?
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1,792. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
JSS1138 Feb 3, 2014 3:52 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Yup.
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1,793. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
TheCoroner9 Feb 3, 2014 4:15 PM (in response to shooternz)shooternz wrote:
Please explain to me what you can do with CC that I can't do with my "outdated "CS6 that has a big impact on the end result? If you're a painter, it's not the paint brush that's going to make you a professional. It's how you can use
You will discover the answer to the above when your clients are able to do more at "their place" and don't need you any more. No matter how skilled you are as a "painter".
Clients have always known the capability of facilities ( and that includes hardware and software and app packages).
This stuff used to be exclusive to "pros". Now it is available to anyone... so beware any smugness regarding how ones own skills factor in. I have seen many instances where business have taken work "in house: Advertising Agencies are an example.
What business are you in?
FWIW
CC SpeedGrade DL would be an example of something that "has a big impact on the end result" that CS6 wont do. It can have also a significant impact on income / profit stream.
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It's still not worth submitting to Adobe's subscription plan after they took away "Choice" from their customers.
I believe a lot of pro CC users have a hard time understanding that. Adobe counted on a certain percentage would be willing to submit.
What they didn't count on was a larger percentage wouldn't be willing.
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1,794. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Steven L. Gotz Feb 3, 2014 5:10 PM (in response to TheCoroner9)I believe a lot of pro CC users have a hard time understanding that. Adobe counted on a certain percentage would be willing to submit.
What they didn't count on was a larger percentage wouldn't be willing.
We all understand that just fine. It is you that might have a hard time understanding that lots of CS6 users have no need or desire to upgrade yet. But when the time comes that a new codec, or new camera type requires a jump to CC, or a jump to other software entirely, that is when push wil come to shove and decisions will be made. Until then, there are lots of reasons to upgrade, and lots of reasons not to. It depends on each user.
Just wait. Be patient. You will not win a single battle, let alone the war, until the smoke clears from the battlefield and Adobe sees what the results of its grand plans were. Then you will be proven right, or wrong as the case may be.
My guess? H.265.
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1,795. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Andy Bay Feb 3, 2014 6:15 PM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)Steven, while I grant that you have a point and those things will surely affect decision making of many people, let me remind that we can keep working with CS6 even if there are new cameras with new formats. We will simply need to create intermediate files that CS6 will accept. Same thing with H256. Export lossless, then convert to h265 with a free converter. Is that ideal? No. But I still consider it to be a cheap price for my freedom.
Of course I'm hoping for the competition to step up. Blender is doing a lot of development on the video side recently. One day we will be able to 3d-model, animate, edit, color correct, 3d-track and composite footage all in one open source program. Actually to be accurate, you can already do all of those things right now in Blender. For honesty's sake the editing workflow is not yet as good as with Premiere, but they are developing it fast. In 2-3 years, who knows how advanced it will be.
EDIT:
Is Google cooking up something? They just snatched John Nack from Adobe!
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1,796. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
PaulM-Aus Feb 3, 2014 6:30 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Andy Bay wrote:
But I still consider it to be a cheap price for my freedom.
We're still talking about a software suite here, right?
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1,797. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
R Neil Haugen Feb 3, 2014 7:10 PM (in response to Andy Bay)Hello, Andy ...
"Fact 1: Adobe has less paying CC users than it had paying CS6 users.
Fact 2: Adobe is predicting higher future income based on it's new subscription model.
Conclusion: If facts 1 and 2 continue to stay true, CC users will necessarily have to pay more money to Adobe in the future."
My college profs would have shot this rhetorical argument down before I'd sat down. From both the discussions I've seen here and what I've seen reported elsewhere, it's darn difficult to compare the exact profit margins of two very different models when you do NOT have the exact figures of either ... and you seem only concerned about the income stream, not the cost "stream". From what I've known of businesses that have gone to a subscription, the costs do change. What figures do you have on the actual expenses of Adobe prior to the licensing vs. their expense ledgers now? You'd have to have all that to make a half-informed argument about this.
Further, you don't know all the internals about say, client base and further cost controls that may yet come within their plans ... so to make the total and absolute assumption that because they expect a higher future income it can ONLY come from higher fees. Again, you've not shown anywhere near the data to presume that.
So ... an argument based on only part of the overall profitability of a huge and varied company, without knowing any of their internal plans or expectations for the future. Ignoring a tremendous amount of necessary data.
Fact 1. NSA wants to, and has been using it's capabilities to gather information on foreign companies in order to give US an advantage over them. This has been confirmed by several reliable sources, like Edward Snowden and other NSA employees.
Fact 2. NSA has been accessing cloud services to gather large parts of this information. US based companies are not allowed to report this to the consumers.
Fact 3. Adobe has a US based cloud service.
Conclusion: NSA is likely to want access to Adobe's cloud. Adobe will have to comply and can't tell this to the consumers.
You say you're an american and wont have to worry about that. Good for you.
Hmmm. Not that I'm pleased with the NSA's activity, still ... because I have a subscription currently with Adobe for software, and there is a capability to post some of one's work to their "cloud" if one chooses ... you jump to the NSA being able to spy into my machine? Interesting leap. Again, my college profs would have been less than impressed.
Could this possibly happen? NSA looking into my stuff? Remotely, yes ... if and when I decide there is some reason to "share" something on their "cloud". Other than that I've an Adobe CC subscription, there's not a lot that is of interest to anyone past Adobe's accounting department about me.
Is ANYTHING in what I might ever post going to be worth the hassle and time to look through it? Not a chance. I don't happen to deal with state secrets or even company secrets worth a crapper. Haven't designed any worthwhile new fantastic machines. Don't share knowledge with physicists, engineers, mathematicians, politicians, geepers ... anyone cool. My personal life is amazingly boring. Having dealt with a few ex-security types in the past, just having known them ... and talked with them only about what people THINK their peers do and what really is of any interest ... I'm not on their short list. Sigh. Wish it weren't so.
My accounting software is also subscription ... but again, like Adobe, I don't post any info there. I know you're absolutely convinced that at some near point Adobe will send some nice guy here with a gun and force me to both post everything I have on their cloud AND keep paying the subscription. I rather doubt it. And I'm no more "trapped" into Adobe than you are.
2. You also seem to suggest that future can't be predicted based on the knowledge of the past. You write that I base my arguments "presumptions of another group's future behavior" and try to make it sound like it's impossible to predict the future in fact based manner.
This, of course is a false notion. I can perfectly predict, that the floor under me won't collapse when I walk on it, based on my knowledge of it not doing so in the past. I can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow based on my knowledge of it's past behavior. And I can predict that a company controlled by the interests of it's stock holders, will do anything they possibly can in order to gain as much profit as possible.
My. Yes, it's shocking that a company will do anything it can to maximize profits. And that makes them different from any other company (including mine) ... how? And if you're so certain they will do ANYTHING to maximize profits, yet ... you are also absolutely certain that the CC model has cost them major profits (though you've never as mentioned above dealt with their entire income/expense situation) ... um, that seems like a bizarre "argument" to me. You're insisting they are totally ignoring millions of dollars of income and yet ... are going to not miss a beat in how to beat more money out of their clients ... really.
I still say I see large holes in your thought-processes. But enough for now, I might be able to post later on the rest of your comments. Not that I find the logic in those more compelling.
Neil
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1,798. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
TheCoroner9 Feb 3, 2014 10:01 PM (in response to Steven L. Gotz)Steven L. Gotz wrote:
I believe a lot of pro CC users have a hard time understanding that. Adobe counted on a certain percentage would be willing to submit.
What they didn't count on was a larger percentage wouldn't be willing.
Just wait. Be patient. You will not win a single battle, let alone the war, until the smoke clears from the battlefield and Adobe sees what the results of its grand plans were. Then you will be proven right, or wrong as the case may be.
My guess? H.265.
Unfortunately by the time Adobe sees the smoke clear most users will have moved on to their competitor's product and the Adobe reputation, regardless of what the final case will be, has taken an enormous hit with their removal of choice for their customers.
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1,799. Re: News on Premiere Next at Adobe Max
Steven L. Gotz Feb 3, 2014 10:07 PM (in response to TheCoroner9)Or the new low entry costs will have attracted so many new customers that the management team will all get huge bonuses.
I doubt that "most" customer will leave. A reasonably large group of people? Yes. A large percentage? Maybe not.
But not many have left just yet as far as anyone can tell. If they are using CS6, and continue to do so for a while, how will anyone know how many will eventually leave.
Your assumptions may prove to be valid, but I doubt it. We'll see.





