If we uncheck the third-party McAfee offer, why is a McAfee folder still installed on our computer?

[GeoMG]

The folder in ProgramData is titled "McAfee" and the next folder under that directory is title "MCLOGS" folder, so there can be no doubt that is a third-party folder.  Why is it installed after we have requested no third-party installation?

And, possibly more importantly, where in the Adobe agreements we click acceptance of does it state we have authorized Adobe to install a third-party folder on our computer?

[C_F_McBlob]

First part: There is a known updater that installs it with no opt out. I've seen it myself. It's PRECISELY why I NEVER use the updaters for ANYTHING on ANY of my eight systems (Win and Mac). Use the Offline installers with nothing bundled:

Flash Player for ActiveX (Internet Explorer)

Flash Player Plug-in (All other browsers)

Second part:

From the EULA - 11.4 The Software may automatically download and install updates from Adobe. These updates are designed to improve, enhance and further develop the Services and may take the form of bug fixes, enhanced functions, new Software modules, and completely new versions. You agree to receive such updates (and permit Adobe to deliver these to you with or without your knowledge) as part of your use of the Services.

Also:

8. Third Party Offerings. You acknowledge and agree to the following:

8.1 Third Party Offerings. The Software may allow you to access and interoperate with third party content, software applications, and data services, including rich Internet applications (“Third Party Offerings”). Your access to and use of any Third Party Offering, including any goods, services, or information, is governed by the terms and conditions respecting such offerings and copyright laws of the United States and other countries. Third Party Offerings are not owned or provided by Adobe. You agree that you will not use any of such Third Party Offerings in violation of copyright laws of the United States or other countries. Adobe or the third party may at any time, for any reason, modify or discontinue the availability of any Third Party Offerings. Adobe does not control, endorse, or accept responsibility for Third Party Offerings. Any dealings between you and any third party in connection with a Third Party Offerings, including such party’s privacy policies and use of your personal information, delivery of and payment for goods and services, and any other terms, conditions, warranties, or representations associated with such dealings, are solely between you and such third party. Third Party Offerings might not be available in all languages or to residents of all countries and Adobe or the third party may, at any time and for any reason, modify or discontinue the availability of any Third Party Offerings.

8.2 EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY AGREED BY ADOBE OR ITS AFFILIATES OR A THIRD PARTY IN A SEPARATE AGREEMENT, YOUR USE OF ADOBE AND THIRD PARTY OFFERINGS IS AT YOUR OWN RISK UNDER THE WARRANTY AND LIABILITY LIMITATIONS OF SECTIONS 1.1 AND 10.

[GeoMG]

Thank you very much for your response, Mike M, but I'd like to make it clear that I am not interested in the advice about using those other methods of installation, thank you.

I am trying to ask Adobe to relate to what happens to most people.  I mean like the hundreds of thousands of people (maybe millions) that may not even know how to access this help forum, and certainly know zero about offline installation techniques.

Regarding your "Second part" -- the closest I can find to what I am asking is this:

Any dealings between you and any third party in connection with a Third Party Offerings, including such party’s privacy policies and use of your personal information, delivery of and payment for goods and services, and any other terms, conditions, warranties, or representations associated with such dealings, are solely between you and such third party.

Now please tell me when we have the opportunity to see the McAfee "privacy policies" or "terms" or "conditions" before Adobe installs that McAfee folder, which is a third-party folder?

I very much appreciate that you have thus far tried to be specific, so I'll thank you to continue to do so.  Maybe you'll need to use images, or some such method, but when does the Adobe customer see the McAfee terms and conditions before that McAfee third-party folder is placed on our computer by Adobe?  Especially, McAfee's privacy policies?

Thank you, or anyone else's, attention to this matter.

[C_F_McBlob]

Okay, so the "other installers" are of no interest to you.

As I tell the people who, after I show them that Microsoft has deliberately and intentionally altered the User-Agent Strings for IE11 so that websites can't identify it or any of their plugins and that's why IE doesn't work with so many sites and I recommend another browser, proudly tell me, "Changing browsers is not an option"...

So be it. I gave you a solution, an alternative. You don't want it? Live with the problem.

As to the license agreement for McAfee, You can find it here:

It's here as well: (EULA.pdf)

[GeoMG]

I sense some sarcasm up there, Mike M.  Is that really necessary?  Is that polite?  Was it impolite for me to be truthful and make it clear I was not interested in offline installers?

I was very clear in the opening post:

Why is it installed after we have requested no third-party installation?

Maybe I am being too sensitive, so please forgive me, if I am.  May we continue?

I think you might not be quite understanding something I am asking about regarding the McAfee terms, conditions, and privacy policies, if I may suggest that without upsetting you further.

People are unchecking that box, so do you think that when they uncheck that box they are going to think they need to read the McAfee terms, or conditions, or privacy policies?  When they uncheck that box, they are not expecting Adobe to go ahead and install the McAfee folder.

Doesn't that sound logical?  No?

Adobe is not giving us any popup that states they are going to install a third-party folder regardless of our indicating we don't want any third-party installation because we unchecked the box.  No, Adobe is just going right ahead and installing that third-party folder and we are lucky if we find out it was done.  It's even going into a hidden folder.  In fact, it's being put into a folder that bypasses the Windows security for the Program Files.

Are you making the case that everyone should expect to have a third-party folder installed on their computer even after they unchecked that box?  So they should know to read the McAfee documentation, anyway?

[C_F_McBlob]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I simply have little tolerance [content removed by moderator]

If you uncheck the box. You won't get the McAfee download. Trust me. I've tested it on five different Windows machines (XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1) in four different browsers (IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari). In more than forty tests on other systems, I was unable to even trick or force the download with the box unchecked. It simply doesn't install. But...

As I stated in my first post, I've seen one particular GUI updater (not a download from http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/) that installed McAfee Security scan with no notice and no chance to opt out.

I have screen shots of my XP, Vista 7 & 8 PRogram Files folders showing that there ARE NO McAfee folders on ANY of them (hidden or visible) if you'd like. But then, I DO use the offline installers I linked to earlier so I ONLY install the plug-ins, as I recommend to EVERYONE who doesn't want bundled software.

[GeoMG]

I guess you just can't help yourself, can you?  You are just a nasty person.  I feel sorry for you.  Maybe I should include your soul in my evening prayers.

And about that statement that you made that we won't have the folder installed if we uncheck that box -- you are wrong.  And there are plenty of people that have already posted on this site about it happening.  Or are you stating they are all lying?  And it is not just Adobe that is doing this.  Oracle is, too.

Do you need me to give you a list of the threads on this site where people state they unchecked the box and the folder was still installed?  Or do you need one of the Adobe engineers to tell you that's true?  They know it.  And you should, too.

But I am not really surprised that you won't believe other people.  You are just not that style.

So I better wait for one of the Adobe employees to explain things.

Please don't post in this thread, anymore.  That is a please.  And I'll thank you to stay away.

But I'll still say a prayer for you.  You need the help from Him.

[GeoMG]

Just in case anyone else needs this information I have this address.  But I'll have to see how this works.  Maybe it won't.

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/search/index.cfm?cat=support&term=McAfee&loc=en_us&self=0&lr=en_us&prod...

[GeoMG]

I will be more specific about this folder of which I wrote in the OP.

McAfee\MCLOGS\Common\MsiExec\MsiExec000.log

The log will look like this, except I am removing the date:

-- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'op' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'op' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.

I think the engineers here will recognize that and if this practice has been stopped since about the end of last year, then please let us know.

Thank you.

[pwillener]

GeoMG wrote:

I am trying to ask Adobe to relate to what happens to most people.  I mean like the hundreds of thousands of people (maybe millions) that may not even know how to access this help forum, and certainly know zero about offline installation techniques.

This is a user forum.  If you have something to ask Adobe, ask them, and not attack fellow users who are trying to help you!

[GeoMG]

You mean that if I am trying very hard to correct a misunderstanding brought about by another member not reading my OP correctly then that attempt to correct the misunderstanding is considered by the MVP Team to be an "attack" upon someone?

Am I understanding correctly what you wrote?

_ _ _ _ Secondly _ _ _

So we are clear about the misunderstanding I was trying to fix, could you, Pat Willener, in this first paragraph of the OP, explain where I wrote anything about updating anything.  Thank you.

The folder in ProgramData is titled "McAfee" and the next folder under that directory is title "MCLOGS" folder, so there can be no doubt that is a third-party folder. Why is it installed after we have requested no third-party installation?

* * * EDIT * * *

I have been informed that I would be helping if I were to explain why I am asking for feedback on the criticism from the member of the MVP Team.  I am asking for feedback, or clarification, so that I do not antagonize any of the MVPs in the future to the point that they feel a public rebuke of one of my posts is necessary.

Message was edited by: GeoMG was requested to clarify his purpose.  He has done so.

[GeoMG]

As we are going to be moving into the second business day of this new business week, I'll restate for an Adobe employee/engineer the scenario that is outlined in the title and the OP.

We have unchecked the opt-in box.  We have seen the check box.  We have unchecked the box.  McAfee Security Scan Plus IS NOT installed.

BUT there is a folder placed into our ProgramData folder and it has the title "McAfee" and then "MCLOGS" then "Common" then "MsiExec" and finally this "MsiExec000.log" and the log will contain, among other elements, what is copied below:

... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'op' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'op' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'type' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.
... -- (Error)$ [ MSSBA78.tmp]$ The Attribute: 'action' does not exist.

Obviously, I have not included the dates above, nor the last few lines.

But enough information is being provided for an engineer at this company in the correct section or department to recognize what I am asking about.  If any employee does not recognize what I am describing above, please ask an engineer in the appropriate department before responding here, thank you.

The question is whether this company still installs those "McAfee" folders on our computers?  Or has this practice been stopped?

Thank you for your attention.

[C_F_McBlob]

We need to put an end to this.

This is a "user-to-user" forum, and Adobe engineers DO NOT frequent these pages. Neither does anyone in management, for that matter.

If you want to submit a bug report, you can do so here: Feature Request/Bug Report ...or you can continue to beat a dead horse.

None of the other users here are going to make any policy changes at Adobe, and none of us are going to remove those folders. You have to do that part yourself.

And, no... the practice hasn't stopped, and it isn't going to anytime soon. That's precisely the reason I offered you the alternative downloads... to avoid bundled software. But you already made it known that that absolutely  ISN'T something you're interested in so you'll keep posting in vain... trying to force the world to change to suit your individual needs.

Best of luck with that.

[GeoMG]

I'll thank the individual that most recently posted for his input, and possibly I should clarify what I meant by "employee" in the post I did before this one.

I have been under the impresssion since I joined this community in 2012 that the individuals with avatars that contain the vocabulary "staff" are, in fact, employees.

So, as of this date, that would seem to be Chris Campbell and Sunil_Bsaskaran.

Regarding the mention of management by the individual that posted just above, and to correct that individual, in my previous post I did not make any request for management to provide any explanations concerning this matter.

And I wouldn't know if either Chris Campbell or Sunil_Bsaskaran are engineers, but I did indicate that if the employees here do not recognize that log, then they would be needing to consult with an engineer.

If the two employees that work in/on this forum have no intention of offering the assistance I have requested, I'll thank one of them to so state that, and then I can move on.

Thank you.

[GeoMG]

There has been a development that is relevant to all the sites where this issue is either being investigated or being discussed.

We have a post from the engineers at McAfee and what I will now share with the employees here is the following post done at 1930hrs on February 4th UTC-6:

Hello geomg,

My name is Mark, I am a senior member of the consumer support team. Peacekeeper brought up your issue with me as previously mentioned. Since this product isn't part of my normal scope of support I had to contact another team. I brought your concern forward and they have provide a response. 

"McAfee has noted the issue and will be addressing this issue in the next product update cycle"

While I don't expect an issue after the next product update cycle please let me know if you see one. 

Regards,

Mark

I have requested clarification on the phrase "next product update cycle" and have explained to Mark that at Oracle, Adobe, and some other tech sites there are more people than just myself that are following this issue.

And I thought this should be forwarded, so to speak, to this site.

I will be happy to provide a link to that post by Mark, if I am authorized by the admin to do so.  After my rebuke by the MVP Team I do not wish to engage in any further activity that might get me banned, thus my request for admin authorization to post links to other sites where this issue is currently under discussion.

Peacekeeper, by the way, is a moderator on the McAfee site.

[GeoMG]

I have an update from the discussion at McAfee that is related to this matter here at Adobe.

I do not know what the precedent might be for this manner of posting, but what is given to us at McAfee obviously carries weight with matters related to this here at Adobe.  There is no way to separate the two.

　

x x x Response from Mark at McAfee Consumer Support to my last question x x x

　

Feb 5, 2014 6:04 PM

Hello geomg,

This is a good question with many layers, I don't have sufficient information to answer them.

Will this update arrive with the next update to Java unlikely. Java updates are for the Oracle product.

The change will likely take place when MSS+ is updated. I don't have a time line for this.

How the change will be release and to whom again I am not sure. This is an odd situation as there isn't a product on the systems to update. One would have to remove the Oracle app to trigger the offer to install MSS+ again.

As for the use of the term product update cycle it is a standard development term. It refers to the time period in the life of an applications when it is actively updated. According to the comment from the MSS+ team the change should occur with the next release of the MSS+ product.

　

x x x My Response to Mark at McAfee x x x

　

Thank you for your continued assistance in this matter, Mark.

If I may, I'd like to focus attention on a particular sentence from your last response:

"This is an odd situation as there isn't a product on the systems to update."

No product because we opted out, but there is a folder placed on our system that is directly related to the offer of the McAfee product, MSS+. And it is a folder placed there without any agreement documentation related to that folder. I think most computer owners feel the standard protocol is that any company that wishes to place a folder on their computer has to ask permission through some sort of agreement documentation.

Mark, who owns that McAfee folder that is placed in our ProgramData folder?

It has the McAfee name, but did McAfee sign an agreement with Oracle and Adobe to do what they please with that folder?

I ask the question in that manner because there is a Mr. Roger Lewis at Oracle who is publicly stating this is all going to be taken care of at Oracle with a bug report handled at Oracle and he indicated something about the McAfee folder was going into the wrong location on our computers and it should be going into a temporary folder.

That seems to indicate that Oracle owns the folder and can do as they please with it, and this rookie in such matters, me, finds that a little strange, if you don't mind my making that personal observation.

　

So I am now able to ask you, Mark, as a senior member of consumer support, because the crux of the issue is why we don't see McAfee asking us permission to place that folder on our computer. On top of that, it's being placed in a hidden folder — Vista, by the way (two units). I haven't checked and tested my Windows 7 computer. But we do have reports from people using Windows 7 and having the issue arise from an Adobe installation.

I hope I'll be forgiven for highlighting the irony of this affair, in that your company is in the business of stopping odd folders being installed on our computers without our permission. To my knowledge, I never gave anyone permission over the past 12 months or so to place a McAfee folder on my computer, unless it is actually an Oracle or Adobe folder which is incorrectly named. Except there is also the matter of the MCLOGS folder being in there, too. And that is obviously from McAfee. Plus Mr. Lewis at Oracle did not indicate there was a problem with the name of the folder.

Unfortunately, there has not yet been an employee response from Adobe. I don't know what their view is of this matter.

And for any new readers here that may not wish to go back and read three months of posts about this affair, we are not referring to a situation where we did not see the opt-out box. This is a situation where we unchecked the box to not receive the McAfee product, yet a McAfee folder is still installed on our computer.

And let me thank you, Mark, for your patience. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen at Adobe, I contend this issue also requires feedback from your company. A lack of employee feedback in this thread has some believing there may be something you feel needs to remain out of the public view. I'm not of that opinion. I just think you haven't had enough time to fully acquaint yourselves with the facts of the case. Am I correct?

[GeoMG]

Anybody else think maybe we went beyond Mark's pay grade with that last question? I mean, you don't hang up in the middle of a PR pitch, do you?

Sort of reminds me of some four decades ago when I was with a unit that was tasked with collecting up a certain kind of radio that had been issued to some ARVN units and as Uncle Sam was unassing that AO he wanted them radioes back and I was assigned to that small unit tasked by Uncle Sam to collect his radios and we had assigned to us some of Uncle Sam's finest at blowing smoke up the you-know-what, so I 've seen the art as practiced by the best, and it's a lesson a young man never forgets. Now, as an old man, I'll observe that these corporate types I've heard from so far aren't as good at it. So I'll be moving up the chain of command where they are probably a bit better at recognizing when they have one that won't get snowed quite so easily as might a line captain.

Either that, or they will recognize that some answers need to be provided to the public. You just can't go around trying to BS hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people on this planet, and not expect some push back from somebody who finds out. Just happened to be that this time it was from this little office over here on the other side of the Big Pond from where that Terminator fella lives.

And that's a thought, aint't it? Whaddya reckon will happen if one of them high livin` Hollywood types finds out you folks have been sticking that spyware on their computer. `cause that's what it is, right? A kind of spyware logging some information about customer preference, right? "You didn't take our product? Well, we wanna a record of that and we'll keep that record on each of your computers, not one of ours." And being done by a company tasked with stopping that sort of thing, eh? Funny about life, ain't it?

Can't really say it's been a pleasure, folks. Kind of hard for an old soldier trying to keep a civil tongue when faced with such piles of bovine excrement as has been thrown off the back of the deuce-and-a-half you folks kept in front of me for the past three months. And I'll be bundling all three of you companies into one case. You folks are all in this one together, for sure. Ain't gonna be an Adobe or Oracle executive authorize his/her employees to place a McAfee folder on the cutomer's computer without McAfee signing off on it, right? Be major lawsuits flying about if that were done, for sure.

But we sho` ain't finished, folks. Not by a long shot. In fact, I suspected way back at the beginning that this one could take a bit of time and work, and there'd be all sorts of crap thrown at me. And I reckon I'll be needing to spend a fair bit of pocket change, too. Or more. Too bad. But what the heck -- can't take it with you. And the Church won't mind. It's goin` to a good cause. For folks that don't even know what's being done, because nobody told them. In fact, most probably don't even know that ProgramData folder is there, let alone some sneak installation of some information about something they didn't want. Yep, some mighty sneaky stuff that. Not nice. Not polite. Not respectful. Shouldn't be the American way. Even Alexander Hamilton, who championed the mercantile class, might not even approve of that. Jefferson, on the other side of the aisle, sure wouldn't have approved. I don't think any of the Founding Fathers would like this business.

And you are understanding correctly what that sounds like, now. Kind of like a crusade, now. Could have been so much easier if y`all had been honest from the start, instead of thinkin` you had some country boy you could try to sell a left-handed monkey wrench to.

Sayonara, for now.

[pwillener]

Well, Sayonara from here in Tokyo too!

[GeoMG]

Well, I sense you got through the storm and the shoveling up and whatever driving needed doing without getting hurt.  That's good.  One less soul Mother Nature took a piece of.  Haven't seen anything like that since Mother Nature dropped a tree on my house from off the hill some 20 years ago.  Glad you're okay.  Hope we have another 20 years before she does that again.