14 Replies Latest reply on Jun 29, 2007 9:55 AM by rgoso

    compression BUG in FW CS3?

    switch88
      Hi,

      I just try FW CS3 and think that there is a bug in the dialog "Image Preview".

      F. A. I open a grafik (sample.png) with 126kb size, than I "save as" smaple.jpg in the preview dialog. The target size would be 6kb, after saving I look via rigth mouse into the properties of this grafik an I see that is realy 18kb size :(

      When you saved the grafik the tab in FW shows "sample.jpg". Now when you do the same way twice (save as), the size of the picture can´t be reduce once!

      Even when you set the quality down to 1%, the size of the grafik is still approx 14kb!

      What is the problem here? With FW MX I have no such problems with the grafik sizes :(

      Is this a bug?

      Whe I open the sample.png in another grafik tool like Irfanview and save it there as .jpg. I get a very small file with 6kb which is very good quality.

      It seems that the size different between "image Preview" and the result, it´s about 100% biger file size :(

      Or try to open a new document 120x120px, transparent background, save it as .gif with index transparent, the target size show 295byte, but when you open the properties of the saved grafik, you will see that the size will be 14kb!

      Why?? Has anybody a hint?

      Thanks an best regards

      Switch
        • 1. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
          Level 7
          switch88 wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > I just try FW CS3 and think that there is a bug in the dialog "Image Preview".
          >
          > F. A. I open a grafik (sample.png) with 126kb size, than I "save as"
          > smaple.jpg in the preview dialog. The target size would be 6kb, after saving I
          > look via rigth mouse into the properties of this grafik an I see that is realy
          > 18kb size :(

          >

          Switch,

          You will want to 'Export' the file, not 'save as'.

          SKB
          • 2. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
            Level 7
            SKB wrote:
            > switch88 wrote:
            >> Hi,
            >>
            >> I just try FW CS3 and think that there is a bug in the dialog "Image
            >> Preview".
            >>
            >> F. A. I open a grafik (sample.png) with 126kb size, than I "save as"
            >> smaple.jpg in the preview dialog. The target size would be 6kb, after
            >> saving I look via rigth mouse into the properties of this grafik an I
            >> see that is realy 18kb size :(
            >
            >>
            >
            > Switch,
            >
            > You will want to 'Export' the file, not 'save as'.
            >
            > SKB

            It appears that using Image Preview and exporting from that window has
            the same effect as "save as" which should not be the case, IMO.

            Save as preserves any image meta data that is with the file. Export is
            supposed to strip out the meta data to create a smaller file. I just
            tested this on my system with the same image. File > Export gave me an
            11k file. File > Image Preview >Export and File > Save as both gave me
            28k files.

            --
            Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
            Extending Knowledge, Daily
            http://www.communityMX.com/
            CommunityMX - Free Resources:
            http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
            ---
            .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
            news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
            news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
            • 3. compression BUG in FW CS3?
              switch88 Level 1
              Hi Jim,

              you are rigtht... with the export dialog I get the lowest file size.

              But when does it makes sense to use the "save as" dialog which has much more optimisation features!

              As I can remember, in FW MX such problems are not given.

              Where comes from the big data amount when I save as? It can´t be all meta datas.

              Try one thing:

              - open a new document with 120x120px
              - just transparent background and nothing else
              - save as and choice .gif as target file type
              - now you see the actual filesize on the right side with appro. 195byte
              - save it and klick on the grafik with the right mouse button and look into the properties

              You will see that the first 195byte file has now after saving approx 14kb size!

              Next strange thing is, go back into FW and try to save the same grafik, which shows actual the .gif file type in the tab, as an .png file again.

              You will have also a very big file size of approx 16kb!

              What´s happend? There where no history or other change datas to be stored.

              Or save a picture as .jpg file and go twice into FW and save as .jpg. You will see that even when you choice quality of "1%" the file size comes donw only approx 1-2kb!

              I can't understand this :(

              Regards

              switch
              • 4. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                Level 7
                Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:

                >
                > It appears that using Image Preview and exporting from that window has
                > the same effect as "save as" which should not be the case, IMO.
                >
                > Save as preserves any image meta data that is with the file. Export is
                > supposed to strip out the meta data to create a smaller file. I just
                > tested this on my system with the same image. File > Export gave me an
                > 11k file. File > Image Preview >Export and File > Save as both gave me
                > 28k files.
                >

                Jim,

                I just Exported three different png's using File > Export and Image
                Preview > Export with the same jpeg compression settings. All three
                ended up the same size. ????

                SKB
                • 5. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                  Level 7
                  SKB wrote:
                  > Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >> It appears that using Image Preview and exporting from that window has
                  >> the same effect as "save as" which should not be the case, IMO.
                  >>
                  >> Save as preserves any image meta data that is with the file. Export is
                  >> supposed to strip out the meta data to create a smaller file. I just
                  >> tested this on my system with the same image. File > Export gave me an
                  >> 11k file. File > Image Preview >Export and File > Save as both gave me
                  >> 28k files.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Jim,
                  >
                  > I just Exported three different png's using File > Export and Image
                  > Preview > Export with the same jpeg compression settings. All three
                  > ended up the same size. ????
                  >
                  > SKB


                  That is not the result I received, but I can try it again. Are you using
                  FW from the Suite or as a standalone installation?

                  --
                  Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
                  Extending Knowledge, Daily
                  http://www.communityMX.com/
                  CommunityMX - Free Resources:
                  http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
                  ---
                  .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
                  news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
                  news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
                  • 6. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                    Level 7
                    switch88 wrote:
                    > Hi Jim,
                    >
                    > you are rigtht... with the export dialog I get the lowest file size.
                    >
                    > But when makes it sense to use the "save as" dialog which has much mor
                    > optimation features!
                    >
                    > As I can remember, in FW MX such problems are not given.
                    >
                    > Where comes from the big data amount when I save as? It can?t be all meta
                    > datas.
                    >
                    > Try one thing:
                    >
                    > - open a new dokument with 120x120px
                    > - just transparent background and nothing else
                    > - save as and choice .gif as target file type
                    > - now you see the actual filesize on the right side with appro. 195byte
                    > - save it and klick on the grafik with the right mouse button and look into
                    > the properties
                    >
                    > You will see that the first 195byte file has now after saving approx 14kb size!
                    >
                    > Next strange thing is, go back into FW and try to save the same grafik, which
                    > shows actual the .gif file type in the tab, as an .png file again.
                    >
                    > You will have also a very big file size of approx 16kb!
                    >
                    > What?s happend? There where no history or other change datas to be stored.
                    >
                    > Or save a picture as .jpg file and go twice into FW and save as .jpg. You will
                    > see that even when you choice quality of "1%" the file size comes donw only
                    > approx 1-2kb!
                    >
                    > I can't understand this :(
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > switch
                    >

                    I'm not sure what you mean by Save As having more optimization
                    features. The idea behind File > Export is that you do all your
                    optimization using the Optimize panel and resize in the main window.

                    If anything, the Image Preview window should have a check box for
                    keeping or stripping the meta data component from the file.

                    As for the extra space, I do not know the technical elements, but the
                    best way I can describe it is that when you Save As, FW adds enough room
                    to include the ability or add meta data, even if little or none existed
                    in the original file.

                    You did not have this issue in earlier versions because FW completely
                    ignored meta data and stripped it out upon saving OR Exporting the file.
                    --
                    Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
                    Extending Knowledge, Daily
                    http://www.communityMX.com/
                    CommunityMX - Free Resources:
                    http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
                    ---
                    .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
                    news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
                    news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
                    • 7. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                      Level 7
                      Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                      > SKB wrote:
                      >> Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                      >>
                      >>>
                      >>> It appears that using Image Preview and exporting from that window
                      >>> has the same effect as "save as" which should not be the case, IMO.
                      >>>
                      >>> Save as preserves any image meta data that is with the file. Export
                      >>> is supposed to strip out the meta data to create a smaller file. I
                      >>> just tested this on my system with the same image. File > Export gave
                      >>> me an 11k file. File > Image Preview >Export and File > Save as both
                      >>> gave me 28k files.
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> Jim,
                      >>
                      >> I just Exported three different png's using File > Export and Image
                      >> Preview > Export with the same jpeg compression settings. All three
                      >> ended up the same size. ????
                      >>
                      >> SKB
                      >
                      >
                      > That is not the result I received, but I can try it again. Are you using
                      > FW from the Suite or as a standalone installation?
                      >

                      From the Suite but, I did wait until afterwards to uninstall FW8.

                      As a follow-up to this; I open a png and then select jpeg with 80
                      quality to preview an export size. I don't export and just save the png.
                      It uses the jpeg settings in the optimize panel and changes the file size.

                      I don't remember it working this way. I always thought a 'Save' or 'Save
                      As' ignored the Optimize Panel. Or, has it always worked this way and
                      and I just noticed? So unless you remember to change back to PNG32 in
                      the optimize panel before you save, you will mess up the file?

                      I also seem to be having trouble keeping the jpeg file format associated
                      with FW CS3 or, any program for that matter.

                      SKB
                      • 8. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                        Level 7
                        SKB wrote:
                        > Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                        >> SKB wrote:
                        >>> Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> It appears that using Image Preview and exporting from that window
                        >>>> has the same effect as "save as" which should not be the case, IMO.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Save as preserves any image meta data that is with the file. Export
                        >>>> is supposed to strip out the meta data to create a smaller file. I
                        >>>> just tested this on my system with the same image. File > Export
                        >>>> gave me an 11k file. File > Image Preview >Export and File > Save as
                        >>>> both gave me 28k files.
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Jim,
                        >>>
                        >>> I just Exported three different png's using File > Export and Image
                        >>> Preview > Export with the same jpeg compression settings. All three
                        >>> ended up the same size. ????
                        >>>
                        >>> SKB
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> That is not the result I received, but I can try it again. Are you
                        >> using FW from the Suite or as a standalone installation?
                        >>
                        >
                        > From the Suite but, I did wait until afterwards to uninstall FW8.
                        >
                        > As a follow-up to this; I open a png and then select jpeg with 80
                        > quality to preview an export size. I don't export and just save the png.
                        > It uses the jpeg settings in the optimize panel and changes the file size.
                        >
                        > I don't remember it working this way. I always thought a 'Save' or 'Save
                        > As' ignored the Optimize Panel. Or, has it always worked this way and
                        > and I just noticed? So unless you remember to change back to PNG32 in
                        > the optimize panel before you save, you will mess up the file?
                        >
                        > I also seem to be having trouble keeping the jpeg file format associated
                        > with FW CS3 or, any program for that matter.
                        >
                        > SKB

                        If you set compression settings in the Optimize panel, then save the PNG
                        file, it will remember those settings for future export, whether it is a
                        flattened PNG or an FW PNG. Saving the file does not automatically turn
                        it into a jpg or whatever. You would have to either SAVE AS or EXPORT to
                        change the format.

                        The only time this varies is if you open a flat file and add
                        layers/frames/pages to it. When you try to save, FW should prompt you
                        about the format if the original format doesn't support multiple layers etc.

                        All my jpeg file extensions (jpg, jgeg, jpe) are all associated with FW
                        via the File Types dialog in Windows. You can also set this preference
                        by using Bridge and going to EDIT > PREFERENCES > FILE TYPE
                        ASSOCIATIONS. One some files, I still see the MS picture viewer icon,
                        but when double clicked, the files open in FW.

                        --
                        Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
                        Extending Knowledge, Daily
                        http://www.communityMX.com/
                        CommunityMX - Free Resources:
                        http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
                        ---
                        .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
                        news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
                        news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
                        • 9. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                          Level 7
                          Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:

                          > If you set compression settings in the Optimize panel, then save the PNG
                          > file, it will remember those settings for future export, whether it is a
                          > flattened PNG or an FW PNG.

                          Ok, let me see if I have this straight. Even if you don't export, FW
                          will save it anticipating that you will export it with those previewed
                          settings later? So FW is really only adding or subtracting the
                          information necessary to preview the file in the selected format but,
                          not really making the changes permanent until you export it?

                          SKB
                          • 10. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                            Level 7
                            SKB wrote:
                            > Jim Babbage .:CMX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:. wrote:
                            >
                            >> If you set compression settings in the Optimize panel, then save the
                            >> PNG file, it will remember those settings for future export, whether
                            >> it is a flattened PNG or an FW PNG.
                            >
                            > Ok, let me see if I have this straight. Even if you don't export, FW
                            > will save it anticipating that you will export it with those previewed
                            > settings later? So FW is really only adding or subtracting the
                            > information necessary to preview the file in the selected format but,
                            > not really making the changes permanent until you export it?
                            >
                            > SKB


                            Correct, as far as I know. All FW is doing to the PNG file is saving
                            some info along with the file. If you have a PNG file and you set
                            Optimize settings in the Optimize panel for jpg, they are not going to
                            have any effect on the PNG file quality. If you later change those
                            settings to GIF, your 24 bit file doesn't shift over to an indexed
                            palette in the original view, does it. Same for jpeg.

                            Now if you go to File > Save As and change settings there, you will
                            either be creating a new file (jpeg, gif, whatever) OR overwriting your
                            PNG file if you try to save the file as a PNG without changing the filename.
                            --
                            Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
                            Extending Knowledge, Daily
                            http://www.communityMX.com/
                            CommunityMX - Free Resources:
                            http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
                            ---
                            .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
                            news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
                            news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
                            • 11. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                              switch88 Level 1
                              Hi Jim,

                              I use the trail Version (stand alone) from the USA donwload site. Sorry my english isn´t very well :(
                              The version no. of this trail is 9.0.0.1188.

                              Please try following:

                              - open FW
                              - create a new file with test.png with 10 x 10px 10 / resolution 72px/cm, canvas transparent
                              - now click "File" -> "Save as" -> the "Save as" window askes me for the target place to be saveing
                              - now I choice in the drop down "Save as tye" the .gif type -> now the Options button is enabeld and I click into that
                              - now I´m in the "Image Preview" window. Format is GIF, Palette Adaptive, Los 0
                              - on the right side in the top left corner you can see the file size of 59byte
                              - there is now check box or option where I could enabel or disable to save meta information into the file?!
                              - press OK and save it
                              - now look at the place where the GIF file is saved, click the right mouse button to see the properties of the GIF file
                              - you will see that the file has now 12,8KB! and even the size on disc is 16KB!

                              This happends to all grafiks which should rather have a small file size. I presume that there is somewhere a default value of 13KB which every file have. It doesn´t matter what you save. Is the original file size higher than 15KB or something else, you didn´t take notice of this phenomenon.

                              But have a look into FW again, there is now the file shown as test.gif (in the label name of the tab).

                              - do the same way as described above
                              - you can see now in the "Preview Image" window that the test.gif has now a file size of 13,12K!
                              - it is not possible to reduce this size with any option in this window
                              - but try to switch now the Format into JPG an set down the Quality to "1%", you will see that isn´t possible to get lower file size, nothing happends :(

                              When I save the test.png as original .png instantly and use another grafik tool like IrfanView to save the test.png as test.gif, I get an GIF file size of approx 820byte which is definitely better than 13KB ;)

                              Pleas let us know If you can reproduce this phenomenon.

                              Best regards.

                              switch
                              • 12. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                                rgoso
                                Noticed this is happening with office copy... is there a way to bypass this behavior?

                                ... even files with less than 500bytes are turned into 13+kb files.
                                • 13. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                                  Level 7
                                  Sorry the reply took me so long, Switch. It appears that in order to
                                  regain proper export optimization after a file has been SAVED, you first
                                  have to close the file then re-open it. Saving the file maintains meta
                                  data (or reserves space for it). On EXPORT (export, image preview or
                                  export area), FW should be stripping out that info, but the "switch" is
                                  not being activated.

                                  I just ran some additional tests and was able to reproduce the issue and
                                  solve it with the workaround mentioned. I'm not saying that's a great
                                  answer, but it is a way to solve the issue until they resolve the
                                  problem at Adobe's end.

                                  --
                                  Jim Babbage - .:Community MX:. & .:Adobe Community Expert:.
                                  Extending Knowledge, Daily
                                  http://www.communityMX.com/
                                  CommunityMX - Free Resources:
                                  http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
                                  ---
                                  .:Adobe Community Expert for Fireworks:.
                                  news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.fireworks
                                  news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver

                                  switch88 wrote:
                                  > Hi Jim,
                                  >
                                  > I use the trail Version (stand alone) from the USA donwload site. Sorry my
                                  > english isn?t very well :(
                                  > The version no. of this trail is 9.0.0.1188.
                                  >
                                  > Please try following:
                                  >
                                  > - open FW
                                  > - create a new file with test.png with 10 x 10px 10 / resolution 72px/cm,
                                  > canvas transparent
                                  > - now click "File" -> "Save as" -> the "Save as" window askes me for the
                                  > target place to be saveing
                                  > - now I choice in the drop down "Save as tye" the .gif type -> now the Options
                                  > button is enabeld and I click into that
                                  > - now I?m in the "Image Preview" window. Format is GIF, Palette Adaptive, Los 0
                                  > - on the right side in the top left corner you can see the file size of 59byte
                                  > - there is now check box or option where I could enabel or disable to save
                                  > meta information into the file?!
                                  > - press OK and save it
                                  > - now look at the place where the GIF file is saved, click the right mouse
                                  > button to see the properties of the GIF file
                                  > - you will see that the file has now 12,8KB! and even the size on disc is 16KB!
                                  >
                                  > This happends to all grafiks which should rather have a small file size. I
                                  > presume that there is somewhere a default value of 13KB which every file have.
                                  > It doesn?t matter what you save. Is the original file size higher than 15KB or
                                  > something else, you didn?t take notice of this phenomenon.
                                  >
                                  > But have a look into FW again, there is now the file shown as test.gif (in the
                                  > label name of the tab).
                                  >
                                  > - do the same way as described above
                                  > - you can see now in the "Preview Image" window that the test.gif has now a
                                  > file size of 13,12K!
                                  > - it is not possible to reduce this size with any option in this window
                                  > - but try to switch now the Format into JPG an set down the Quality to "1%",
                                  > you will see that isn?t possible to get lower file size, nothing happends :(
                                  >
                                  > When I save the test.png as original .png instantly and use another grafik
                                  > tool like IrfanView to save the test.png as test.gif, I get an GIF file size of
                                  > approx 820byte which is definitely better than 13KB ;)
                                  >
                                  > Pleas let us know If you can reproduce this phenomenon.
                                  >
                                  > Best regards.
                                  >
                                  > switch
                                  >
                                  • 14. Re: compression BUG in FW CS3?
                                    rgoso Level 1
                                    Thanks, yeah, so far it seems to be the only way to get rid of thos extra KBs... i also tried using another program... this time i had no problems.

                                    Hope this is fixed within the next weeks... i prefer using FW.